Zetterberg to the Leafs?

[kliq]

I don't understand why more people aren't upset about this than they were about signing the backdiving contracts to start. It is absolutely 100% bullshit to have a team go out and flex their financial muscle to go out and buy contracts from poor teams. Isn't the whole point of the salary cap that you provide cost certainty and a level playing field? Why exactly can Toronto surpass the cap? Don't they still have to be under the cap before the year starts even if the guys are going to go on LTIR?

Nobody thought to bring this up in the last CBA negotiations. I'm sure it will be addressed in the next round.

 

[Mlotek]

You can use LTIR to manipulate that cap if you're good at it. It allows you some roster flexibility.

That will always makes me unhappy after that blunder, heck Tallon and some of his personnel got fired for building a cup contending and eventual champion for fubaring the cap...

I must have missed that.

Recall Tallon being removed as GM in Chicago but not fired. Not a Chicago fan so don't know the details offhand, but wasn't he still with the team (non-GM capcacity) when they won their 2010 cup?

 

[kliq]

Either way I have a hard time seeing them do it. He has still been around the team, and I doubt he would continue in that capacity with his contract traded to another team.

This is why I dont think it will happen. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to train at the Wings facility if hes technically on the Leafs. I feel that doing this could burn a bridge between the Wings and Z, and would ultimately just bring in a low end pick. Risk not worth the Reward, unless Z gave his blessing.

 

[Mlotek]

I don't understand why more people aren't upset about this than they were about signing the backdiving contracts to start. It is absolutely 100% bullshit to have a team go out and flex their financial muscle to go out and buy contracts from poor teams. Isn't the whole point of the salary cap that you provide cost certainty and a level playing field? Why exactly can Toronto surpass the cap? Don't they still have to be under the cap before the year starts even if the guys are going to go on LTIR?

Because teams like Detroit and Chicago pioneered cap exploitation early in the cap era.

When Chicago won their second cup, the player salaries were around 20 million over the cap.

Thanks to exploiting the backdiving contracts, and burying guys like Huet, it was only bonuses that brought the team over the cap.


Also, it is generally the cash strapped teams that take on backdiving contracts and LTIR to meet the salary floor.

Look at Phoenix and Ottawa.

Phoenix:
Hossa - 5 million
Datsyuk - 7.5 million
Pronger - 5 million
Bolland - 5.5 million


Ottawa
Callahan
Gaborik

 

[Ezekial]

This is why I dont think it will happen. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to train at the Wings facility if hes technically on the Leafs. I feel that doing this could burn a bridge between the Wings and Z, and would ultimately just bring in a low end pick. Risk not worth the Reward, unless Z gave his blessing.

I'll like this post when my infraction runs out tomorrow. That's more what I was trying to get at with my other post, he still is around the organization, and he will continue to have a role when his contract runs out.

 

[Henkka]

Interesting article about the Leafs cap crunch and how they may search for players to put on LTIR and Zetterberg is one of them.

I dont see the Wings doing it as I assume that Z is still involved behind the scenes, but still interesting.

Hate basically the idea, but nothing prevented Pronger-contract being traded to Arizona, and he did still work those last years same time at Flyers staff.

That proved how player contracts and staff contracts are totally separate.

 

[Henkka]

I must have missed that.

Recall Tallon being removed as GM in Chicago but not fired. Not a Chicago fan so don't know the details offhand, but wasn't he still with the team (non-GM capcacity) when they won their 2010 cup?

Yeah, Tallon was still the GM at July 1st 2009, and acquired UFAs Hossa, Kopecky, John Madden. They replaced him with Stan Bowman at July 14th, and Tallon became assistant GM + senior advisor.

He was hired by Florida at May 2010.

This is interesting from Wikipedia:

Soon thereafter, on July 14, 2009, the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor, while Stan Bowman, son of Scotty Bowman, was promoted to general manager.[12] The following day, Martin Havlát, who was no longer a Blackhawk, criticized the team's management and defended Tallon.[13] He stated, "Every single player on that team is with Dale. I still talk to the guys all the time, hockey players know a phony when they see one."[13] He specifically berated John McDonough, the team's president, commenting, "McDonough couldn't stand that Dale was so successful and getting the credit for building the Hawks from a last place team to making the Conference Finals in 3 short years."[13]
The Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in June 2010, giving Tallon his first championship. Tallon's name was engraved on the Cup and the team issued him a Stanley Cup ring

 

[Henkka]

The paper transaction just doesn’t seem worth it.

Not at all interested in helping Toronto with any of their cap issues unless we are getting a return worth anything.

If the best this gets us is a 7th round pick... it’s not worth it. Let Toronto go ahead and need to offer us Kapanen or Johnsson at a bargain basement price instead of us giving them a tool to hold onto their players.

It’s not anything sentimental for me. I’m not handing a rival a tool to keep their top heavy roster in order unless it hurts them some other way. Forgive me, but a low round pick means nothing. Wings only owe Z $1M. Toronto last year got a 5th for retaining some $250k on Clarkson.

This.

Controlling division powers is one thing. No need to help the Leafs for a minor price. Let's get them killed with cap, so we will have easier future on a new rise.

 

[kliq]

Hate basically the idea, but nothing prevented Pronger-contract being traded to Arizona, and he did still work those last years same time at Flyers staff.

That proved how player contracts and staff contracts are totally separate.

Really? I didnt realize he worked for the Flyers. I thought he was working with the NHL head office. Interesting.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Really? I didnt realize he worked for the Flyers. I thought he was working with the NHL head office. Interesting.

I did too.

Because at one point he was on the flyers roster (albeit LTIR), working for the NHL front office in Player Safety, and also in the HHoF, which is both hilarious and ridiculous. And somehow fitting that Pronger pulled it off.

 

[SirloinUB]

The paper transaction just doesn’t seem worth it.

Not at all interested in helping Toronto with any of their cap issues unless we are getting a return worth anything.

If the best this gets us is a 7th round pick... it’s not worth it. Let Toronto go ahead and need to offer us Kapanen or Johnsson at a bargain basement price instead of us giving them a tool to hold onto their players.

It’s not anything sentimental for me. I’m not handing a rival a tool to keep their top heavy roster in order unless it hurts them some other way. Forgive me, but a low round pick means nothing. Wings only owe Z $1M. Toronto last year got a 5th for retaining some $250k on Clarkson.

Exactly. Why would we help out a rival for a 6th or 7th rounder?

1) Keeping Zetterberg doesn’t hurt us in anyway so there is no addition by subtraction kind of motivation.

2) The maple leafs are our divisional rival. Helping them through a cap crunch puts them in a better position to keep as much of their talent around as possible.

3) game theory. I have something you want. Do I give it to you as cheap possible or make you pay as much of a premium as possible and maximize the value of the asset.

a 7th rounder? GTFOH

 

[SirloinUB]

This.

Controlling division powers is one thing. No need to help the Leafs for a minor price. Let's get them killed with cap, so we will have easier future on a new rise.

even if we don’t make a deal with them at all we shouldn’t actively work to lower the price they have to pay so that “we get the asset.”

If the going rate is a 3rd we shouldn’t drive that price down further for the leafs just so we can gain a menial asset.

 

[newfy]

This is why I dont think it will happen. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to train at the Wings facility if hes technically on the Leafs. I feel that doing this could burn a bridge between the Wings and Z, and would ultimately just bring in a low end pick. Risk not worth the Reward, unless Z gave his blessing.

Pronger was still under contract getting paid by a team in the NHL and allowed to work in the department of player safety for the league. I dont think theres going to be anything that says Zetterberg cant come work out at the wings facility if his contract is moved for a year. Its also not like the Leafs would try to force him to not work out there, it would be a completely on paper transaction.

 

[kliq]

Pronger was still under contract getting paid by a team in the NHL and allowed to work in the department of player safety for the league. I dont think theres going to be anything that says Zetterberg cant come work out at the wings facility if his contract is moved for a year. Its also not like the Leafs would try to force him to not work out there, it would be a completely on paper transaction.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but is this your opinion? Or did you read something that lays these rules out in the CBA?

 

[avssuc]

I am not going down this rabbit hole anymore than just to say the Ownership group according to several credible sources do not view Zetterberg and Datsyuk in the same light. So it isn't really an apt comparison and that is without the fact that when leaving early Milstein and Datsyuk openly campaigned for the dumping of his contract as a way to deflect some of the cap ramifications angering people. Though the Leafs won't care that they will have to pay him unlike the Coyotes. That isn't an apples to apples comparison for those making it.

With the final point being we are not hurting for cap space right now, it is a very very different situation.

-I read the Freep and News occasionally, so there's a good chance I missed it (ownership wants/feels). If it was reported on, feel free to share. I just have difficulty wrapping my head around avoiding futures for the sake of nostalgia.

-Cap space is an asset, and the fact that the Wings aren't hurting for it means they can turn it into something more than cap space. To posit that ownership is against moving meaningless pieces of paper for futures... I can't see. I'm not saying it's not the reality here, but from a market economy standpoint, that's poor team building. Zetterberg can spend the next full winter and spring in Sweden, it won't destroy the Wings if he doesn't pop into their locker room a total of 3 times over the next 82 games.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

-I read the Freep and News occasionally, so there's a good chance I missed it (ownership wants/feels). If it was reported on, feel free to share. I just have difficulty wrapping my head around avoiding futures for the sake of nostalgia.

-Cap space is an asset, and the fact that the Wings aren't hurting for it means they can turn it into something more than cap space. To posit that ownership is against moving meaningless pieces of paper for futures... I can't see. I'm not saying it's not the reality here, but from a market economy standpoint, that's poor team building. Zetterberg can spend the next full winter and spring in Sweden, it won't destroy the Wings if he doesn't pop into their locker room a total of 3 times over the next 82 games.

The Wings don't need more low quality futures. They need big assets. They need top caliber pieces. You can bemoan them not moving "meaningless pieces of paper" but frankly, if you're moving meaningless pieces of paper to get meaningless assets and you're helping a division rival keep their premium assets... what the heck are you doing?

Toronto isn't interested in buying Zetterberg to pay cheap and scam the cap floor. I'd much rather that they use the cap space they have to facilitate trading for a player who has some actual worth not for meaningless paper shifting to get a late round pick. Let's do something to trade with a cap floor team who wants to only pay $1M for a $6M cap hit to get an actual asset as opposed to dealing with Toronto who will just want to dump dogshit on your front porch.

It all comes back to me remotely considering the trade if it involves a more than nominal return. Detroit doesn't need to rid themselves of Zetterberg's LTIR contract. They've got money and they've got cap space. If Toronto wants the contract to make keeping their 4 10-million dollar forward lineup together? Pay the damn piper.

Ownership should be against moving meaningless pieces of paper for a meaningless return.

 

[Retire91]

First of all this trade is not going to happen It's click bait most likely
Second even if its being thought up Toronto is not going to give up anything that would make it worth our team's while to make the trade so the trade is DOA anyway
Third if people think the wings won't trade Zetterberg's contract because of some loyalty or nostalgia reason come on lol....
Fourth the wings should be doing something with their cap space to build the team we are not buyers we are sellers. Bring in a pick or prospect for taking on a bad contract. It has zero impact on us and any 2 or 3 year contract can come here and die a natural death with we wait on other Holland contracts to expire.

 

[avssuc]

The Wings don't need more low quality futures. They need big assets. They need top caliber pieces. You can bemoan them not moving "meaningless pieces of paper" but frankly, if you're moving meaningless pieces of paper to get meaningless assets and you're helping a division rival keep their premium assets... what the heck are you doing?

Toronto isn't interested in buying Zetterberg to pay cheap and scam the cap floor. I'd much rather that they use the cap space they have to facilitate trading for a player who has some actual worth not for meaningless paper shifting to get a late round pick. Let's do something to trade with a cap floor team who wants to only pay $1M for a $6M cap hit to get an actual asset as opposed to dealing with Toronto who will just want to dump dogshit on your front porch.

It all comes back to me remotely considering the trade if it involves a more than nominal return. Detroit doesn't need to rid themselves of Zetterberg's LTIR contract. They've got money and they've got cap space. If Toronto wants the contract to make keeping their 4 10-million dollar forward lineup together? Pay the damn piper.

Ownership should be against moving meaningless pieces of paper for a meaningless return.

Hank and Pav were 'meaningless assets'... for what that's worth.

Also... and follow me here... several 'meaningless assets' packaged together can return better assets.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hank and Pav were 'meaningless assets'... for what that's worth.

Also... and follow me here... several 'meaningless assets' packaged together can return better assets.

The Canes got a first round pick to help the Leafs and buyout Marleau.

My ask for helping them manipulate their cap starts with a second round pick at least.

For the other post, Gare and Custance have talked about the difference on a podcast. Devellano I believe talked about it, Ken Daniels has mentioned the Wings were deeply hurt by how Pavel choose to depart as well I believe on a podcast. It isn't new news but it really opens up a wormhole around here whenever it comes up and is something I really don't want to debate again other than I just really doubt they (in particular the Ilitch family) view Zetterberg and Datsyuk the same way organizationally because well people have said it.

I am not helping the Leafs without a blood letting from them. For a sixth or seventh round pick you hand them a top 10 player in the history of the organization so they can hopefully find ways to manipulate and strengthen their team in your own division... **** no to that idea. Not worth a 6th or 7th round pick.

We also don't know what the floor is. We might be using Zetterberg's contract ourselves to hit it. I mean Mantha, Bert and Fabbri should put us in that neighborhood, but we have to wait and see how different contracts are because of what is going on too.

 

[Gniwder]

The Canes got a first round pick to help the Leafs and buyout Marleau.

My ask for helping them manipulate their cap starts with a second round pick at least.

That's where I'd start but I'd easily settle for a 4th. Even Holland managed to find useful players in 4th or lower rounds:
- AA
- Mrazek (5th)
- Jensen (5th)
- Nyquist
- Helm (5th)
- Quincey
- Ericsson (9th, and last player selected at that)
- Z (7th)
- Dats (6th)

Even a late round pick means Hakan gets a shot to find the next Z/Dats, why would anyone be against that when it's just a paper transaction?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's where I'd start but I'd easily settle for a 4th. Even Holland managed to find useful players in 4th or lower rounds:
- AA
- Mrazek (5th)
- Jensen (5th)
- Nyquist
- Helm (5th)
- Quincey
- Ericsson (9th, and last player selected at that)
- Z (7th)
- Dats (6th)

Even a late round pick means Hakan gets a shot to find the next Z/Dats, why would anyone be against that when it's just a paper transaction?

Because

1) You're helping a rival team game the salary system so they can meander through their cap issues for pennies on the dollar. Sure, it is essentially a free asset for you. But it's so low value that you're losing a trade in which you're not giving anything up.

2) You rattle off those 9 names. All except for Z and Dats were players that someone at some point wanted to jettison into the sun. Half of that list are guys who we couldn't wait to dump for half a rotten ham sandwich. You can't rail against Jonathan Ericsson for half a decade and then paint him as a success story and a reason to make a move like this. Weren't we supposed to be improved by just not having Big Rig on the team this past year?

3) The Wings have had upwords of 10-11 picks each of the last three years. They need to start landing quality and not be worried about getting quantity. For the Wings as currently constructed, a late round pick is garbage. It is worthless. You can't count on Z or Dats or even Ericsson anymore. This isn't the late 1990s. All of the Swedish and Russian leagues are all over Youtube now to where you can see these guys. Even as recently as 1999 teams just hadn't seen Datsyuk or saw Zetterberg as a little tiny player and then missed when he grew some.

I'm against it because the 0.01% shot that a late round pick becomes something is outweighed by handing Toronto the keys to retain their roster and make it through their own cap woes.

 

[Gniwder]

Because

1) You're helping a rival team game the salary system so they can meander through their cap issues for pennies on the dollar. Sure, it is essentially a free asset for you. But it's so low value that you're losing a trade in which you're not giving anything up.

2) You rattle off those 9 names. All except for Z and Dats were players that someone at some point wanted to jettison into the sun. Half of that list are guys who we couldn't wait to dump for half a rotten ham sandwich. You can't rail against Jonathan Ericsson for half a decade and then paint him as a success story and a reason to make a move like this. Weren't we supposed to be improved by just not having Big Rig on the team this past year?

3) The Wings have had upwords of 10-11 picks each of the last three years. They need to start landing quality and not be worried about getting quantity. For the Wings as currently constructed, a late round pick is garbage. It is worthless. You can't count on Z or Dats or even Ericsson anymore. This isn't the late 1990s. All of the Swedish and Russian leagues are all over Youtube now to where you can see these guys. Even as recently as 1999 teams just hadn't seen Datsyuk or saw Zetterberg as a little tiny player and then missed when he grew some.

I'm against it because the 0.01% shot that a late round pick becomes something is outweighed by handing Toronto the keys to retain their roster and make it through their own cap woes.

1) That's pure nonsense. You can't lose by trading a free asset. Your logic is so flawed it's not even funny. Also, rivalry doesn't matter when you're the worst team in the league. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot against the Leafs. If there's ever a time to trade away assets to a rival, it's when you suck. The Penguins did it when they tanked.... traded Jagr (their top asset) to the Caps.

2) You can't expect All Stars in later rounds, but they were all useful players. I would have taken Jensen over anyone that played on the right side this season except Hronek.

Big E has been pretty worthless since the hip injury, but until then he was a real promising player, and better than anyone we had on the left side this season.

3) When was AA picked? There's also the possibility of moving up up combining picks. We know Holland like to trade down for extra picks, so we have at least one trading partner. More flawed logic in that quantity is bad. More quantity is better than staying put. The alternative is we get nothing.

Once again, how well the Leafs do short term has no impact on our team and the fact that we suck. We do not want to do anything that will help them long term, but Z only has a year left on his contract.


My points:
1) There is no rivalry with the Leafs at the moment because we suck. We are not competing for a playoff spot. Helping them for one year does not hurt this team in any way.
2) We are giving up nothing. Z's contract has no value to us.
3) Something is better than nothing.
4) This contract will cost Chris $1M to keep. This might be a moot point if it is insured, but there is actual salary involved.

Go tell someone else that a free pick (regardless of which round) is worse than not having that pick. Be prepared to be laughed at.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

1) That's pure nonsense. You can't lose by trading a free asset. Your logic is so flawed it's not even funny. Also, rivalry doesn't matter when you're the worst team in the league. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot against the Leafs. If there's ever a time to trade away assets to a rival, it's when you suck. The Penguins did it when they tanked.... traded Jagr (their top asset) to the Caps.

2) You can't expect All Stars in later rounds, but they were all useful players. I would have taken Jensen over anyone that played on the right side this season except Hronek.

Big E has been pretty worthless since the hip injury, but until then he was a real promising player, and better than anyone we had on the left side this season.

3) When was AA picked? There's also the possibility of moving up up combining picks. We know Holland like to trade down for extra picks, so we have at least one trading partner. More flawed logic in that quantity is bad. More quantity is better than staying put. The alternative is we get nothing.

Once again, how well the Leafs do short term has no impact on our team and the fact that we suck. We do not want to do anything that will help them long term, but Z only has a year left on his contract.


My points:
1) There is no rivalry with the Leafs at the moment because we suck. We are not competing for a playoff spot. Helping them for one year does not hurt this team in any way.
2) We are giving up nothing. Z's contract has no value to us.
3) Something is better than nothing.
4) This contract will cost Chris $1M to keep. This might be a moot point if it is insured, but there is actual salary involved.

Go tell someone else that a free pick (regardless of which round) is worse than not having that pick. Be prepared to be laughed at.

Exactly. Unless Stevie and management personally care about the Leafs winning the cup (only reason I could think of would be potential fan base switch for the Wings fans in southern Ontario), there’s no hockey reason to not help them out for an asset even if they are a “rival”.

By the time the Wings are good again Toronto’s benefit from this will be over. The only reason not to do this is A) Hank’s blessing, which is the most valid and B) potentially pissing off a lot of other GMs for helping the Leafs (Boston for example).

 

[kliq]

First of all this trade is not going to happen It's click bait most likely
Second even if its being thought up Toronto is not going to give up anything that would make it worth our team's while to make the trade so the trade is DOA anyway
Third if people think the wings won't trade Zetterberg's contract because of some loyalty or nostalgia reason come on lol....
Fourth the wings should be doing something with their cap space to build the team we are not buyers we are sellers. Bring in a pick or prospect for taking on a bad contract. It has zero impact on us and any 2 or 3 year contract can come here and die a natural death with we wait on other Holland contracts to expire.

I dont think its clickbait, the Leafs did this last year when they acquired Clarkson's contract. The article wasnt all about Z, it was about the Leafs acquiring an LTIR contract, and Z just happened to be one of the options.

I wouldn't call it "loyalty" or "nostalgia" , but if Z is currently working behind the scenes with the Wings (say there are priming him for a front office job), if trading him gets a low end pick (say a 7th round pick), and that means Z has to stay out for a year, I dont see them doing it. Now if the return was a 1st round pick (which of course its not) different story. I don't think this take is one to be laughed at.

 

[Gniwder]

Exactly. Unless Stevie and management personally care about the Leafs winning the cup (only reason I could think of would be potential fan base switch for the Wings fans in southern Ontario), there’s no hockey reason to not help them out for an asset even if they are a “rival”.

By the time the Wings are good again Toronto’s benefit from this will be over. The only reason not to do this is A) Hank’s blessing, which is the most valid and B) potentially pissing off a lot of other GMs for helping the Leafs (Boston for example).

Agree with A) because Hank is still important to the team, but who cares about B)? When is the last time the Wings traded with Boston? Trades happen all the time, and every trade I'm sure pisses someone off, but I doubt that's really ever a consideration. Look at the Orpik trade for example, Colorado ate the salary and bought him out which allowed Wash to re-sign Orpik at a discount. I doubt Colorado worried about pissing off the rest of the Metro division, they just wanted Grubauer.