Zetterberg and the Wings

[Sentinel]

Talent matters but Red Kelly who is a Leafs player isn't cracking the top 10. Sorry, I understand. I have in the past pointed out that he meets the qualification for jersey retirement in a big way. But I have been told by people I trust around the organization that is why he isn't consider for this. They aren't going to honor someone that isn't thought of as a Red Wings player alone. Even Fedorov really qualifies here as his dominant years were in Detroit and it is the first place you qualify him. Red Kelly was great in Toronto and Detroit, but the man himself identifies with Toronto first, credit to him he earned that right and the end with the Adams family was certainly bad. But still sorry it knocks him out of the top 10.

I mean we are not even discussing guys like Goodfellow who is one of four Detroit players with a Hart. There is a lot of history here at work, it is challenging to organize. But like I said the Wings have said they are going to retire him on multiple occasions. I guess maybe it doesn't happen and we can reevaluate, but the organization itself is about to slap top 8 all-time status on him so that is pretty important to this discussion.

After what the Wings did to Kelly I do not blame Kelly one bit for saying he identifies with the Leafs. I wouldn't blame Lindsay for identifying with Chicago either.

 

[newfy]

Talent matters but Red Kelly who is a Leafs player isn't cracking the top 10. Sorry, I understand. I have in the past pointed out that he meets the qualification for jersey retirement in a big way. But I have been told by people I trust around the organization that is why he isn't consider for this. They aren't going to honor someone that isn't thought of as a Red Wings player alone. Even Fedorov really qualifies here as his dominant years were in Detroit and it is the first place you qualify him. Red Kelly was great in Toronto and Detroit, but the man himself identifies with Toronto first, credit to him he earned that right and the end with the Adams family was certainly bad. But still sorry it knocks him out of the top 10.

I mean we are not even discussing guys like Goodfellow who is one of four Detroit players with a Hart. There is a lot of history here at work, it is challenging to organize. But like I said the Wings have said they are going to retire him on multiple occasions. I guess maybe it doesn't happen and we can reevaluate, but the organization itself is about to slap top 8 all-time status on him so that is pretty important to this discussion.

At the end of the day, the organization now isnt the final say in who the best wings were all time though either. They have final say in jersey retirements, and I dont blame them for not retiring Kellys (because he identifies as a Leaf), but that to me doesnt mean Kelly isnt one of the greatest wings either. The wings completely black balled him, it is what it is. But his accomplishments as a wing speak for themself and if the wings dont wanna retire his jersey thats fine. To say he isnt top ten all time wing is ridiculous to me though. His accomplishments as a wing are probably 4th or 5th best. Had he retired when he got traded to New York (before agreeing to go to Toronto) he would be considered no worse than 5th probably

 

[TwoPiece]

Its not conjecture, they basically made the trophy for him. He didnt get voted into the all star game, he was voted the first team all star by the people who vote for the awards at the end of the year. He would've won 4 straight norrises. Period. Its not conjecture and the fact that you wont agree with it shows that youre willing to be purposefully ignorant to a fact that hurts your stance

It is conjecture. Saying, "they basically made the trophy for him" admits as much, because they didn't make the trophy for him. You can't claim something that didn't happen would have happened. You may think that it would have happened, but again, that's conjecture and not factual...

 

[TwoPiece]

As much as I love Zetterberg, who's been a beast for a decade and a half, he is not anywhere NEAR the Top 5 and barely scratches the Top 10.

Howe
Lidstrom
Yzerman
Sawchuk
Kelly
Fedorov
Lindsay
Datsyuk
Abel
Ullman
Delvecchio / Zetterberg

Zetterberg had ONE Conn Smythe. That's it.

Kelly's 4 retro-Norrises and six 1AST's, Abel's Hart and two 1AST's, Ullman's retro-Richard, a 1AST, and 2x leading playoff in points on a losing team easily trump Zetterberg's achievements. They were all simply better hockey players. Anybody pretending otherwise is willfully ignorant.

Or... Your opinion is not a fact. Seems like you're ranking based off of peak ability, and not overall impact/importance to Red Wings history. Different discussion altogether.

Kelly, Fedorov, Abel, and Ullman don't sniff Zetterberg's legacy as a Detroit Red Wing. And, as has been said before, Fedorov is one of my 2 favorite players of all-time.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Or... Your opinion is not a fact. Seems like you're ranking based off of peak ability, and not overall impact/importance to Red Wings history. Different discussion altogether.

Kelly, Fedorov, Abel, and Ullman don't sniff Zetterberg's legacy as a Detroit Red Wing.

Kelly and Abel don't sniff Zetterberg's legacy? C'mon, it seems you are blinders on to justify "your guy" Zettenberg.
Ullman I can understand, but the other three will go down in history as difference makers for the Wings and the NHL.

 

[TwoPiece]

Kelly and Abel don't sniff Zetterberg's legacy? C'mon, it seems you are blinders on to justify "your guy" Zettenberg.
Ullman I can understand, but the other three will go down in history as difference makers for the Wings and the NHL.

We're discussing as Red Wings. Kelly and Abel IMO aren't close. Fedorov probably is close, but for me it's not close enough to think twice. He's probably just below Zetterberg.

Abel played about half as many games as Z in Detroit, and I know, seasons were shorter back then. Kelly has already been discussed for too long.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

We're discussing as Red Wings. Kelly and Abel IMO aren't close. Fedorov probably is close, but for me it's not close enough to think twice. He's probably just below Zetterberg.

Abel played about half as many games as Z in Detroit, and I know, seasons were shorter back then. Kelly has already been discussed for too long.

Abel played on one of the most productive lines in NHL history and also coached/GM Wings. To dismiss him, just proves my point. But if you want to just look at players the 21 century on ward you have point. Fifty years from now, Abel will still be talked about as a historical Wing, Zett will looked as having a nice long career as a Wing.

 

[TwoPiece]

Abel played on one of the most productive lines in NHL history and also coached/GM Wings. To dismiss him, just proves my point. But if you want to just look at players the 21 century on ward you have point. Fifty years from now, Abel will still be talked about as a historical Wing, Zett will looked as having a nice long career as a Wing.

They'll both have their numbers in the rafters. One will have spent 1,000+ games as a Red Wing and possibly have scored 1,000 points. Abel was great, and is in my Top-10 for sure, but it's another instance of not being close enough to debate for me personally.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Zetterberg will rank as a legendary Red Wing in my opinion. Nobody will ever officially wear 40 for the Red Wings.

They'll probably keep the captaincy vacant with Zetterberg on the IR before Zetterberg announces retirement before the torch is passed to Dylan Larkin.

I think if Zetterberg will make a come-back he plays some games in Sweden.

 

[newfy]

It is conjecture. Saying, "they basically made the trophy for him" admits as much, because they didn't make the trophy for him. You can't claim something that didn't happen would have happened. You may think that it would have happened, but again, that's conjecture and not factual...

I have a book at home that says something along the lines of they wanted to recognize the best dman because Kelly had been so great in prior years but hadnt won any hardware to show for it. His play was the reason they wanted to create the trophy in the first place. I dont have the book with me but I'm sure some other wings fans have read that as well.

And yes you can claim he would win the norris even if it didnt happen. The norris trophy is voted for the best dman in the league, so is the first team all star. He was voted the first team all star all those years, they just didnt have a trophy to write his name on at the time. I guess there is a small chance it wouldnt have for some odd reason and youre right it will never be 100% correct. But its also not rocket science to say he was voted the best dman in the league by the guys who would vote for the norris trophy so he probably would have won the norris as well. Saying thats conjecture is just you being intentionally obtuse

 

[Sentinel]

[mod]

Who would you rank higher in your "Red Wing legacy chart": Kris Draper or Brendan Shanahan?

And yes, 4 retro-Norrises is better for the team than 1 Conn Smythe.

 

[TwoPiece]

Who would you rank higher in your "Red Wing legacy chart": Kris Draper or Brendan Shanahan?

Brendan Shanahan.

If you're trying to say that the gap between Kelly and Zetterberg is the same as Shanahan and Draper, you're severely mistaken. Legacy is not longevity.

Draper and Holmstrom were both fantastic depth players for a long time. Shanahan spent his prime in Detroit and his prime impacted Detroit more than both of those gentlemen, despite being "elite" at front-net s***-disturbing and 3rd/4th-line checking.

 

[Sentinel]

Brendan Shanahan.

If you're trying to say that the gap between Kelly and Zetterberg is the same as Shanahan and Draper, you're severely mistaken.

Evidence of my "mistake" please?

 

[TwoPiece]

Evidence of my "mistake" please?

Kelly was an elite defenseman for close to a decade. Zetterberg was an elite forward for a decade.

Shanahan was an elite forward for a decade. Draper was never an elite forward. He was an "elite" 3rd line center for awhile.

Not a close argument. At all.

 

[Sentinel]

Kelly was an elite defenseman for close to a decade. Zetterberg was an elite forward for a decade.

Shanahan was an elite forward for a decade. Draper was never an elite forward. He was an "elite" 3rd line center for awhile.

Not a close argument. At all.

The question is: how elite was elite? Zetterberg won ONE award (none in the regular season). Kelly won FIVE or more (had they existed) and was the backbone of a dynasty. He is pretty much a lock for being a Top 30 player of all time. I am currently trying hard to squeeze Zetterberg into Top 120 and finding very few arguments for that. They are nowhere near each other.

Shanahan won NO awards. Draper won an award (over Datsyuk and Zetterberg, mind you) and was a Red Wing for much longer than Shanahan. Their value is closer than you think.

 

[TwoPiece]

The question is: how elite was elite? Zetterberg won ONE award (none in the regular season). Kelly won FIVE or more (had they existed) and was the backbone of a dynasty. He is pretty much a lock for being a Top 30 player of all time. I am currently trying hard to squeeze Zetterberg into Top 120 and finding very few arguments for that. They are nowhere near each other.

Shanahan won NO awards. Draper won an award (over Datsyuk and Zetterberg, mind you) and was a Red Wing for much longer than Shanahan. Their value is closer than you think.

Oh, I thought we were judging players by how good they actually were; not by awards. Clearly you're having a conversation alone.

Jonathan Cheechoo was a better player than Vladimir Konstantinov by your metrics.

 

[Sentinel]

Oh, I thought we were judging players by how good they actually were; not by awards. Clearly you're having a conversation alone.

Jonathan Cheechoo was a better player than Vladimir Konstantinov by your metrics.

Who determines "how good they actually were"? You? Are you qualified to make that judgment about a player whose prime was in the 1950s? Because all contemporaries sure rave about him more than Z's contemporaries do.

The Cheechoo example is bad. He had one standout season and was a product of Thornton. All other players we mentioned, even Draper, have a history of solid-to-exceptional performances. You are really reaching.

 

[TwoPiece]

Who determines "how good they actually were"? You? Are you qualified to make that judgment about a player whose prime was in the 1950s? Because all contemporaries sure rave about him more than Z's contemporaries do.

The Cheechoo example is bad. He had one standout season and was a product of Thornton. All other players we mentioned, even Draper, have a history of solid-to-exceptional performances. You are really reaching.

You keep talking about them as a whole. One player spent half of his career in Detroit and the other spent his entire career in Detroit. Therefor, 100% of Z's accolades build his legacy. Only about half of what Kelly accomplished did anything positive for Detroit. It's not that difficult to understand.

The Cheechoo example is a straw that destroys your entire "trophy" argument. It succeeded. Draper's 1 Selke Trophy does not make his career as a 3rd liner in Detroit close to Shanahan's 9 seasons as an elite power forward. Pure delusion.

 

[Sentinel]

You keep talking about them as a whole. One player spent half of his career in Detroit and the other spent his entire career in Detroit. Therefor, 100% of Z's accolades build his legacy. Only about half of what Kelly accomplished did anything positive for Detroit. It's not that difficult to understand.

The Cheechoo example is a straw that destroys your entire "trophy" argument. It succeeded. Draper's 1 Selke Trophy does not make his career as a 3rd liner in Detroit close to Shanahan's 9 seasons as an elite power forward. Pure delusion.

Was Cheechoo selected for the national team in a major tournament? Draper was -- twice. Did he have a history of playoff performances? Draper did. And so on and so forth.

Kelly's prime fell on his Detroit era. What he did in Detroit was amazing and, frankly, not too far behind Lidstrom.

Anyway, I think I am done here. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[Martinez]

I’d put him somewhere around Abel

 

[TheAngryHank]

[mod]

Who would you rank higher in your "Red Wing legacy chart": Kris Draper or Brendan Shanahan?

And yes, 4 retro-Norrises is better for the team than 1 Conn Smythe.

Shanny cost more than a dollar ,there for Draper wins this question.
Shanny was obviously a better player and seemed to be the missing ingredient to the 96 wings however Draper was on the grind line and maybe the best defencive center ever,as well as a great PKer and a shorty threat.
I give the nod to Draper.

 

[Regal]

Or... Your opinion is not a fact. Seems like you're ranking based off of peak ability, and not overall impact/importance to Red Wings history. Different discussion altogether.

Kelly, Fedorov, Abel, and Ullman don't sniff Zetterberg's legacy as a Detroit Red Wing. And, as has been said before, Fedorov is one of my 2 favorite players of all-time.

Opinions might not be facts but it's a fact that in my opinion this is a bad opinion based on no facts

Zetterberg has played only 2 more seasons for the franchise than Fedorov and Kelly while being a worse player in general, earning fewer awards and having less team success. Your comments make it seem like they only played a handful of seasons for the team, or that somehow playing for other teams impacts their legacy.

 

[Lshap]

Let's avoid turning this conversation into a conversation about this conversation. If you can't contribute constructively, stay out of it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Zetterberg has played only 2 more seasons for the franchise than Fedorov and Kelly while being a worse player in general, earning fewer awards and having less team success. Your comments make it seem like they only played a handful of seasons for the team, or that somehow playing for other teams impacts their legacy.

Z's jersey will be retired very quickly. Fedorov was my favorite player growing up and still remains one of my all-time favorites, but his legacy as a Red Wing does not compare to Z's.

 

[Regal]

Z's jersey will be retired very quickly. Fedorov was my favorite player growing up and still remains one of my all-time favorites, but his legacy as a Red Wing does not compare to Z's.

How though? Fedorov's career in a Wings jersey is better than Zetterberg's. Is it because he left as a UFA? Because that seems like a bit of a ridiculous reason to knock someone with a better career so far below someone he doesnt compare