Zetterberg and the Wings

[The Zetterberg Era]

Zetterberg has been one of my fav players ever since I started watching hockey. I really hope he plays. He is more concerned with the money at this point which is upsetting but in my eyes he is top 10 for Red Wings of all time

He hasn't been able to start training. He also didn't practice after new years. His back issues are well documented. He even said at locker clean out he would be back if he was healthy. He just isn't. Now I find it curious he is golfing with Karlsson and Filppula but maybe that isn't as big an issue somehow. That is the only bad look on this for me, but if he is saying he cannot get in the gym and do his off-season I don't think that is being made up especially given his history with this problem.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Man, does Detroit ever have an amazing all-time roster

It's pretty ridiculous at this point. We have certainly been blessed with a lot of high-end talent in a couple different eras. We debate this every couple summers on our board and it is pretty interesting. I always find that Delvecchio is extremely underrated from a Red Wings importance standpoint. For me he is a top 5 guy when you look at it from just a Red Wings perspective.

I honestly prefer constructing it from true Red Wings form though. You can get an incredibly ridiculous team if you pretend your dropping prime Chelios onto your team or Coffey... But they weren't quite those players even while still having some really great years in Detroit.

 

[Henkka]

Zetterberg's actual $$$ drops significantly these final 3 years of his deal. I don't he plays beyond this season if he even plays. He'll make 1 million per the final 2 years after this one.
It's like how Hossa's alergy suddenly become unbearable once he contract was dipping to 1 million per.
That salary isn't worth it in your late 30's on a terrible team with a bad back.

He said it already for Swedish media, that he is not gonna play those 2 final years. But this is the 3rd last one. Still 3.35M on the table.

 

[Henkka]

Now I find it curious he is golfing with Karlsson and Filppula but maybe that isn't as big an issue somehow. That is the only bad look on this for me, but if he is saying he cannot get in the gym and do his off-season I don't think that is being made up especially given his history with this problem.

I haven't seen a single comment from himself. Just whispers from others.

That seems to be weird, and until he comes to say it by himself, I keep this as a show.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I haven't seen a single comment from himself. Just whispers from others.

That seems to be weird, and until he comes to say it by himself, I keep this as a show.

I think we will find out in September but it is hard to see him opening the season on time given who is reporting this. Sure Z hasn't said it but Holland is concerned, Larkin is concerned anybody you can get to around the Red Wings make it sound like he has had a really tough off-season.

https://www.tsn.ca/blashill-a-lot-of-doubt-on-zetterberg-playing-1.1158482

Here is another one, where Blashill talks about it. Seriously everyone around the Wings is giving pretty big hints at this point. I wish he had one more season in him. I wish we could have given him the proper send off. It really bums me out honestly.

 

[newfy]

It's conjecture that I will neither agree nor disagree with. If we have nothing else to discuss, and neither mind has changed, then we agree to disagree. I heavily disagree with any notion that they aren't close. Neither play is "easily" better than the other. IMO, Zetterberg is slightly better than Kelly.

Its not conjecture, they basically made the trophy for him. He didnt get voted into the all star game, he was voted the first team all star by the people who vote for the awards at the end of the year. He would've won 4 straight norrises. Period. Its not conjecture and the fact that you wont agree with it shows that youre willing to be purposefully ignorant to a fact that hurts your stance

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Its not conjecture, they basically made the trophy for him. He didnt get voted into the all star game, he was voted the first team all star by the people who vote for the awards at the end of the year. He would've won 4 straight norrises. Period. Its not conjecture and the fact that you wont agree with it shows that youre willing to be purposefully ignorant to a fact that hurts your stance

Red Kelly is too closely associated with the Leafs for me to seriously consider him when ranking from an organizational importance standpoint. He himself says he identifies as a Leafs player first. Sorry we have enough history that it knocks him out of any serious discussion.

Now on lists that are purely about talent, yes Red Kelly needs to feature prominently as he was phenomenal in a Wings jersey.

Again I understand some and most were run out of town unfairly but Kelly went on to make a home where he achieved just as much with them. It just hurts him in this discussion for some, I know it does for me. But it does speak to the impact Red Kelly had on hockey teams and he switched positions. He is one of the most underrated talents in the history of the game for me. You could argue him really high up and he rarely is.

 

[nbwingsfan]

94' is a bigger season for sure in terms of Fedorov who was just terrifying offensively at that point and a freak athlete. But Zetterberg was the best hockey player in the world in 07-08 I don't really care who they gave the trophy to. They were wrong, he was a beast the entire season and dominant in the playoffs. There really is no argument against Z in my opinion when looking at the year as a whole that he was the best hockey player in the world at that moment for an entire year.

Zetterberg should have garnered more honors than he did. His body broke down unfortunately so he hasn't gotten back to what he was at his peak. He was still so smart that he was a really impactful player night in and night out even last year which appears to have been his last.

Fedorov was the best player in the world in 94 AND won the award(s) which recognize it.

3rd in goals (4 G behind the leader) and 2nd in points (10 pts behind the greatest player in history) while while also being the best defensive player in the league and a Hart winner

* also 27 points ahead of his next closest teammate

Vs

6th in goals (22 G behind the leader), 6th in points (20pts behind the leader, second in his OWN team) and 3rd in Selke voting (again, behind his own teammate) while being 10th in voting for the Hart (AGAIN behind his own teammate)

Which seems like the better season to you?

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Until I see proof otherwise, I'm still convinced that this is all an act to ensure LTIR eligibility for his retirement after the upcoming season.

He played 20min a night, and hasn't missed a game in 3 seasons. You're telling me he's suddenly unable to play?

His equipment has started to make him itchy.

 

[Sentinel]

As much as I love Zetterberg, who's been a beast for a decade and a half, he is not anywhere NEAR the Top 5 and barely scratches the Top 10.

Howe
Lidstrom
Yzerman
Sawchuk
Kelly
Fedorov
Lindsay
Datsyuk
Abel
Ullman
Delvecchio / Zetterberg

Zetterberg had ONE Conn Smythe. That's it.

Kelly's 4 retro-Norrises and six 1AST's, Abel's Hart and two 1AST's, Ullman's retro-Richard, a 1AST, and 2x leading playoff in points on a losing team easily trump Zetterberg's achievements. They were all simply better hockey players. Anybody pretending otherwise is willfully ignorant.

 

[Eric Robson]

He hasn't been able to start training. He also didn't practice after new years. His back issues are well documented. He even said at locker clean out he would be back if he was healthy. He just isn't. Now I find it curious he is golfing with Karlsson and Filppula but maybe that isn't as big an issue somehow. That is the only bad look on this for me, but if he is saying he cannot get in the gym and do his off-season I don't think that is being made up especially given his history with this problem.

Man golfing is so bad for your back... which makes it seem like it really is the money.
I'd say this, if it really is his back that is going to kept him out than I'd be ok with that. health is more important than hockey. But if he plays this year, for his last big paycheck before his last two season give him a salary of just one million, and he stops, I'd be pretty frustrated.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Man golfing is so bad for your back... which makes it seem like it really is the money.
I'd say this, if it really is his back that is going to kept him out than I'd be ok with that. health is more important than hockey. But if he plays this year, for his last big paycheck before his last two season give him a salary of just one million, and he stops, I'd be pretty frustrated.

Cap circumvention.
Next up Roberto Luongo.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Man golfing is so bad for your back... which makes it seem like it really is the money.
I'd say this, if it really is his back that is going to kept him out than I'd be ok with that. health is more important than hockey. But if he plays this year, for his last big paycheck before his last two season give him a salary of just one million, and he stops, I'd be pretty frustrated.

I think there is really only a chance that this is his last year. That seems to grow dimmer by the day in terms of that chance. If he does play this will be it. I really wish he could play because I think he would have gotten the right sendoff ala the Sedin twins if we knew it was his last year. Everyone was so adamant that it wasn't going to be it is pretty shocking. I thought the same thing about golf... But the back issues he has had for years are well documente especially since he had to abandon the 2014 Olympics for major back surgery it was pretty public knowledge in my opinion and not some pretend narrative. Maybe it is impact physical plays that trouble his fusion and not so much golf but I said at the time if he really is done those photos are going to look bad when he makes it official.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Fedorov was the best player in the world in 94 AND won the award(s) which recognize it.

3rd in goals (4 G behind the leader) and 2nd in points (10 pts behind the greatest player in history) while while also being the best defensive player in the league and a Hart winner

* also 27 points ahead of his next closest teammate

Vs

6th in goals (22 G behind the leader), 6th in points (20pts behind the leader, second in his OWN team) and 3rd in Selke voting (again, behind his own teammate) while being 10th in voting for the Hart (AGAIN behind his own teammate)

Which seems like the better season to you?

I said the 94 season was better in my first comment.

I was merely pointing out Zetterberg in my opinion was the best player in the world for the balance of 07-08. I don't need you to list me his statistical finishes as I just said I disagree with him finishing 10th in the Hart. I think it was wrong. He missed 7 games in season and deserved the selke over Pav. He was a much better faceoff guy taking 1200 faceoffs to Datsyuk's 800 guy that year and they interchanged some of the center responsibilities while playing together but he took the primary center role a lot more than I think some remember. They also began to experiment more with splitting them apart that year. He also dominated the playoffs which doesn't impact some voting in the awards you are listing.

But on the balance I struggle to say there was a more impactful player in the NHL during the balance of that season. He was exceptional right up until they handed him the Cup and Smythe. It is one of the best seasons I have seen, not Fedorov in 94 which again I said originally but Zetterberg's peak is underrated in this regard. He peaked above Datsyuk in my opinion which I am sure will be unpopular with a lot of people but I firmly believe that.

 

[newfy]

Red Kelly is too closely associated with the Leafs for me to seriously consider him when ranking from an organizational importance standpoint. He himself says he identifies as a Leafs player first. Sorry we have enough history that it knocks him out of any serious discussion.

Now on lists that are purely about talent, yes Red Kelly needs to feature prominently as he was phenomenal in a Wings jersey.

Again I understand some and most were run out of town unfairly but Kelly went on to make a home where he achieved just as much with them. It just hurts him in this discussion for some, I know it does for me. But it does speak to the impact Red Kelly had on hockey teams and he switched positions. He is one of the most underrated talents in the history of the game for me. You could argue him really high up and he rarely is.

It depends who youre ranking against when youre talking about Kelly though. Identifying with the leafs definitely knocks him down in discussion, but like I said, he wasnt identifying with Mike Illitches Red Wings either. Theres enough history to kock him down, but him being knocked down puts him somewhere still likely ahead of Zetterberg for me, or right ther beside him. Its not like I'm putting him above Howe or Yzerman.

Even with Kellys time as a Leaf, he still played almost as many seasons with the wings as Zetterberg and accomplished far more in that time. To have him ahead isnt a slight on Zetterberg, like you said theres a lot of history. To have Zetterberg ~10, right near a top ten all time dman isnt a slight against Zetterberg.

And now this is going to sound like I'm talking shit about Zetterberg but its context. You talk about how much history the wings have but what has Z done to be considered ahead of some of these guys. He has his conn smythe and wore the C. But he never won anything as the captain, he won one cup, he didnt even break 1000 points in his career, barely broke 1000 games. Playing devils advocate obviously because I love Zetterberg but like you said its a team with a lot of history. Sure maybe rank him above Kelly (I dont agree but see your argument), but how can you defend that stat line as top 5 wing all time? Above someone like Ted Lindsay like has been mentioned in this thread.

I think I take Jack Adams into account more than most when considering these lists, but still, Zetterberg doesnt belong over a lot of guys, the wings have an insane history and likely the hardest team to get your jersey retired on. I really wouldnt be surprised if Zetterberg didnt get his retired, hes right on that cusp.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

As much as I love Zetterberg, who's been a beast for a decade and a half, he is not anywhere NEAR the Top 5 and barely scratches the Top 10.

Howe
Lidstrom
Yzerman
Sawchuk
Kelly
Fedorov
Lindsay
Datsyuk
Abel
Ullman
Delvecchio / Zetterberg

Zetterberg had ONE Conn Smythe. That's it.

Kelly's 4 retro-Norrises and six 1AST's, Abel's Hart and two 1AST's, Ullman's retro-Richard, a 1AST, and 2x leading playoff in points on a losing team easily trump Zetterberg's achievements. They were all simply better hockey players. Anybody pretending otherwise is willfully ignorant.

Anybody that puts our second longest serving Captain in Delvecchio that low in terms of organizational importance makes me question if they are being willfully ignorant. This question was posed as were does he rank among the all-time Red Wings greats in terms of organizational placement. Pure talent is a different discussion but people will be upset that it pushes several prominent players to places they might not like. Again Fedorov is the most talented of the last generation but who is actually going to put him above Yzerman and Lidstrom.

Well the same is true of Z and Fats. When you're the face of the franchise for a big amount of time and the leader of the group it massively impacts were you should rank. You can point to him never leading them in scoring with Delvecchio as well but he is a massive part of the history of this club and his standing there is unquestionable in terms of what he brought to the Wings playing 24 seasons with Detroit alone.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It depends who youre ranking against when youre talking about Kelly though. Identifying with the leafs definitely knocks him down in discussion, but like I said, he wasnt identifying with Mike Illitches Red Wings either. Theres enough history to kock him down, but him being knocked down puts him somewhere still likely ahead of Zetterberg for me, or right ther beside him. Its not like I'm putting him above Howe or Yzerman.

Even with Kellys time as a Leaf, he still played almost as many seasons with the wings as Zetterberg and accomplished far more in that time. To have him ahead isnt a slight on Zetterberg, like you said theres a lot of history. To have Zetterberg ~10, right near a top ten all time dman isnt a slight against Zetterberg.

And now this is going to sound like I'm talking **** about Zetterberg but its context. You talk about how much history the wings have but what has Z done to be considered ahead of some of these guys. He has his conn smythe and wore the C. But he never won anything as the captain, he won one cup, he didnt even break 1000 points in his career, barely broke 1000 games. Playing devils advocate obviously because I love Zetterberg but like you said its a team with a lot of history. Sure maybe rank him above Kelly (I dont agree but see your argument), but how can you defend that stat line as top 5 wing all time? Above someone like Ted Lindsay like has been mentioned in this thread.

I think I take Jack Adams into account more than most when considering these lists, but still, Zetterberg doesnt belong over a lot of guys, the wings have an insane history and likely the hardest team to get your jersey retired on. I really wouldnt be surprised if Zetterberg didnt get his retired, hes right on that cusp.

I don't have him over Lindsay. I don't actually have him over Fedorov personally. But I think there are arguments to be crafted on him. For instance I have him over Datsyuk in terms of organizational ranking. That isn't popular with a lot of our fans, but he drove the bus more when we were winning with them as the big two forwards.

I don't think it was about the numbers with Z. He made so many winning hockey plays. I think he is a top 10 guy organizationally. They seem intent that he will be honored with jersey retirement in terms of statements which is not a ho hum honor in Detroit as you outlined. So like it or not the organization is telling you they believe him to be top 8 in that discussion as soon as they follow through. I mean in how many cities are Shanahan or Osgood not receiving that honor for what they accomplished in Detroit?

Also yeah I hate some of the things Jack Adams did. Mike Ilitch was a fabulous owner and invested heavily in the city. Don't pretend he doesn't have some skeletons either. Aurie's jersey being taken down from the rafters against his families wishes is disgracefully mean. The Cujo debacle. Even as good as we have had it there are some cringe moments as well during that magnificent run. They do happen even if Adams had several ridiculous ones and nearly killed the franchise. I am not going to pretend over years and years an owner is likely to be totally mistake free. Ilitch wasn't flawless either.

It is what it is in terms of rankings. It is kind of like prospect rankings where you are balancing a couple different factors while making the list at least it is for me. When asked to look at it from a pure organizational importance level I give a lot of impact to career Red Wings, but certainly a guy like Fedorov can rise above some for me because of how dynamic he was. He was also an underrated monster in terms of the playoffs and was robbed of the Smythe in the Vernon win in my opinion.

I like you don't view Terrible Ted's time away from the organization as his own doing. I pretty treat him like a career Red Wings player. His impact off the ice where him and Delvechhio were ever present post-playing career is also massive in terms of his Red Wings placement.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Man golfing is so bad for your back... which makes it seem like it really is the money.
I'd say this, if it really is his back that is going to kept him out than I'd be ok with that. health is more important than hockey. But if he plays this year, for his last big paycheck before his last two season give him a salary of just one million, and he stops, I'd be pretty frustrated.

Golfing is not remotely as taxing on the body as playing hockey. It’s a silly thing to complain about. He has a bad back, that is well documented. It doesn’t mean he has to stop living his life, just that playing NHL hockey may be to straining on his body and could leave him worse off if he continues to try and play. I hope Zetterberg plays next season, but people are far to quick to right off the ramifications he could face for the next 30+ years after retiring.

 

[Eric Robson]

I think there is really only a chance that this is his last year. That seems to grow dimmer by the day in terms of that chance. If he does play this will be it. I really wish he could play because I think he would have gotten the right sendoff ala the Sedin twins if we knew it was his last year. Everyone was so adamant that it wasn't going to be it is pretty shocking. I thought the same thing about golf... But the back issues he has had for years are well documente especially since he had to abandon the 2014 Olympics for major back surgery it was pretty public knowledge in my opinion and not some pretend narrative. Maybe it is impact physical plays that trouble his fusion and not so much golf but I said at the time if he really is done those photos are going to look bad when he makes it official.

So true. I remember at the 2014 Olympics I was thrilled he was named the captain and I was expected to see what he could do leading the team, and then bam, back surgery.
I also agree that if he does play this year, it is 100 percent his last year. And the only player that will possibly still be around from the old regime will be Kronwall.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

So true. I remember at the 2014 Olympics I was thrilled he was named the captain and I was expected to see what he could do leading the team, and then bam, back surgery.
I also agree that if he does play this year, it is 100 percent his last year. And the only player that will possibly still be around from the old regime will be Kronwall.

This is Kronwall's final year. I would be surprised if he plays over 60 games himself. He is playing on one leg at this point. He has a degenerative knee.

Which is another thing in these threads. Most guys that have played into their late 30's in the NHL are likely to struggle to clear a true physical. Yzerman played for a few years with no cartilage in his knee.

 

[newfy]

I don't have him over Lindsay. I don't actually have him over Fedorov personally. But I think there are arguments to be crafted on him. For instance I have him over Datsyuk in terms of organizational ranking. That isn't popular with a lot of our fans, but he drove the bus more when we were winning with them as the big two forwards.

I don't think it was about the numbers with Z. He made so many winning hockey plays. I think he is a top 10 guy organizationally. They seem intent that he will be honored with jersey retirement in terms of statements which is not a ho hum honor in Detroit as you outlined. So like it or not the organization is telling you they believe him to be top 8 in that discussion as soon as they follow through. I mean in how many cities are Shanahan or Osgood not receiving that honor for what they accomplished in Detroit?

Also yeah I hate some of the things Jack Adams did. Mike Ilitch was a fabulous owner and invested heavily in the city. Don't pretend he doesn't have some skeletons either. Aurie's jersey being taken down from the rafters against his families wishes is disgracefully mean. The Cujo debacle. Even as good as we have had it there are some cringe moments as well during that magnificent run. They do happen even if Adams had several ridiculous ones and nearly killed the franchise. I am not going to pretend over years and years an owner is likely to be totally mistake free. Ilitch wasn't flawless either.

I'm not saying Zetterberg isnt top 10. Thats right where I have him 8-10. The guy I repsonded to has him ahead of Lindsay and thinks its laughable to have Fedorov near him. Thats pure recency bias for a team with as much history as Detroit. Zetterberg made so many winning hockey plays but so did tonnes of other guys in the wings history, that also put up bigger numbers, won more championships and won more individual hardware. And as far as sports owners go, yes Illitch was flawless. Hes likely in the argument for greatest sports owner of all time, definitely for NHL owners. He had a few bumps along the way but is not even remotely close to Adams. Adams was a genuine piece of shit and I doubt anyone would argue that. Call Mike Illitch a geniune pice of shit and see how people respond. I dont think Auries family should have any say in his jersey, it isnt like the canucks bringing back that dead guys number fo r messier without asking the family.

I saw you mention the organization has talked about retiring his jersey earlier in this thread. I have literally never read or saw anything that looked like that so I would love to see it (not calling you a liar genuinely curious). I read a bit this year that theyre coming around on Fedorov but nothing about Zetterberg. He might be on that cusp

 

[Sentinel]

Anybody that puts our second longest serving Captain in Delvecchio that low in terms of organizational importance makes me question if they are being willfully ignorant. This question was posed as were does he rank among the all-time Red Wings greats in terms of organizational placement. Pure talent is a different discussion but people will be upset that it pushes several prominent players to places they might not like. Again Fedorov is the most talented of the last generation but who is actually going to put him above Yzerman and Lidstrom.

Well the same is true of Z and Fats. When you're the face of the franchise for a big amount of time and the leader of the group it massively impacts were you should rank. You can point to him never leading them in scoring with Delvecchio as well but he is a massive part of the history of this club and his standing there is unquestionable in terms of what he brought to the Wings playing 24 seasons with Detroit alone.

By this rationale you can also place McCarty, Draper, and Holmstrom above Kelly. They practically never played anywhere else and were among most recognizable faces of the quasi-dynasty that the Wings were.

Nobody's gonna put Fedorov above Yzerman and Lidstrom, but that's not because of his talent and not because he left the Wings, but because of their relative achievements.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm not saying Zetterberg isnt top 10. Thats right where I have him 8-10. The guy I repsonded to has him ahead of Lindsay and thinks its laughable to have Fedorov near him. Thats pure recency bias for a team with as much history as Detroit. Zetterberg made so many winning hockey plays but so did tonnes of other guys in the wings history, that also put up bigger numbers, won more championships and won more individual hardware. And as far as sports owners go, yes Illitch was flawless. Hes likely in the argument for greatest sports owner of all time, definitely for NHL owners. He had a few bumps along the way but is not even remotely close to Adams. Adams was a genuine piece of **** and I doubt anyone would argue that. Call Mike Illitch a geniune pice of **** and see how people respond. I dont think Auries family should have any say in his jersey, it isnt like the canucks bringing back that dead guys number fo r messier without asking the family.

I saw you mention the organization has talked about retiring his jersey earlier in this thread. I have literally never read or saw anything that looked like that so I would love to see it (not calling you a liar genuinely curious). I read a bit this year that theyre coming around on Fedorov but nothing about Zetterberg. He might be on that cusp

Holland has said that continuously. He is also open to Fedorov but always says it isn't his call. He is forceful when Zetterberg comes up.

Just ask GM Ken Holland. Speaking with THN’s Ken Campbell on Thursday, Holland made it clear he has no desire to move Zetterberg and chances are he remains a Red Wing until he decides he’s done with the game. If that’s not enough, Holland said, “Zetterberg’s jersey is going in the rafters.” Enough said.

Active NHLers who are a lock for jersey retirement as Devils announce honor for Elias

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

By this rationale you can also place McCarty, Draper, and Holmstrom above Kelly. They practically never played anywhere else and were among most recognizable faces of the quasi-dynasty that the Wings were.

Nobody's gonna put Fedorov above Yzerman and Lidstrom, but that's not because of his talent and not because he left the Wings, but because of their relative achievements.

Talent matters but Red Kelly who is a Leafs player isn't cracking the top 10. Sorry, I understand. I have in the past pointed out that he meets the qualification for jersey retirement in a big way. But I have been told by people I trust around the organization that is why he isn't consider for this. They aren't going to honor someone that isn't thought of as a Red Wings player alone. Even Fedorov really qualifies here as his dominant years were in Detroit and it is the first place you qualify him. Red Kelly was great in Toronto and Detroit, but the man himself identifies with Toronto first, credit to him he earned that right and the end with the Adams family was certainly bad. But still sorry it knocks him out of the top 10.

I mean we are not even discussing guys like Goodfellow who is one of four Detroit players with a Hart. There is a lot of history here at work, it is challenging to organize. But like I said the Wings have said they are going to retire him on multiple occasions. I guess maybe it doesn't happen and we can reevaluate, but the organization itself is about to slap top 8 all-time status on him so that is pretty important to this discussion.

 

[Eric Robson]

This is Kronwall's final year. I would be surprised if he plays over 60 games himself. He is playing on one leg at this point. He has a degenerative knee.

Which is another thing in these threads. Most guys that have played into their late 30's in the NHL are likely to struggle to clear a true physical. Yzerman played for a few years with no cartilage in his knee.

Yeah, it is crazy to think once they're done after this year. Really a shame to see