Value of: Zaitsev Contract.

[sparxx87]

I'm just trying to understand your line of thinking here:

i) Coach consistently uses "good" player(s) in important situations
ii) Team consistently loses important games
iii) Team has zero notable accomplishments in four seasons coach as been there
iv) "This coach knows what he's doing and we should trust his evaluations"

-He uses his best available options
-Yes, they need to get better. 1 top pairing d man has been Achilles heel for them.
-See above
-No. I’ve been consistent on my opinion on this player for a very long time (wrote two long posts in a thread about him around trade deadline, before WC) The coach sharing my sentiments was used to add credibility to my opinion.

You’re free to believe whatever you’d like. I’m just saying the only credible individuals that we can measure seem to agree with me. You’ve got a bunch of fans with charts and graphs mirroring your opinion.

 

[TS Quint]

So if you’re not interested in feelings, what are you interested in? A google proficiency challenge? What can I link from the internet?

In order to show you that he’s doing his job we’d need to sit down and watch tape together. You know this won’t happen but it’s funny you think this somehow proves your point.

I cited two independent professional coaches both in the NHL and Russian hockey who both saw enough value in him to assign him the toughest defensive matchups including defending leads in the last minute.

It doesn’t seem logical to choose a bottom pairing guy for this sort of stuff, does it? Or maybe you’re saying they’re wrong and shouldn’t have deployed him like that?

Because he was assigned tough match ups doesn’t mean he was good at it.

 

[Superlative Soup]

The disconnect comes from player metrics vs team metrics. Coaches and teams absolutely use some team metrics in the video room while breaking down tape - there was actually a screen shot of his white board with something titled ‘heavy shifts’ which was interpreted as lines that had shifts with sustained pressure. Certain combinations, matchups etc are great data to have at your fingertips.... The problem starts when fans start thinking player metrics are included in this. They’re literally a scam and Babcock has denounced them on more than one occasion.

“Those analytics, what a thing. Some people making money off that stuff.. (chuckles) good for them!”

Sure, he can ignore the data and keep his unhealthy obsession with studs like Cleary, Helm, Abdelkader, Hyman, Zaitsev and Marleau.

 

[sparxx87]

Because he was assigned tough match ups doesn’t mean he was good at it.

Of course not.. But do you think Babcock and Russian coach send him out to defend 1 goal lead in the last minute while leaving better options on the bench?

 

[AfroThunder396]

-He uses his best available options
-Yes, they need to get better. 1 top pairing d man has been Achilles heel for them.
-See above
-No. I’ve been consistent on my opinion on this player for a very long time (wrote two long posts in a thread about him around trade deadline, before WC) The coach sharing my sentiments was used to add credibility to my opinion.

You’re free to believe whatever you’d like. I’m just saying the only credible individuals that we can measure seem to agree with me. You’ve got a bunch of fans with charts and graphs mirroring your opinion.

So you prefer opinions to facts and evidence? That's an interesting take.

 

[sparxx87]

So you prefer opinions to facts and evidence? That's an interesting take.

What facts and evidence? Numbers and charts? Again, art not science. Your ‘data’ is incredibly incomplete. It misses far more than it actually records. This isn’t baseball. Sabre metrics won’t work because there it literally hundreds of variables on every shift compared to only a few for every single isolated AB in baseball.

Player metrics are a scam. Hate to break it to you.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

The guy that never broke 70 pts once? lol

What MTL center is better? I'll wait.... No not will be better one day, no not a winger playing center . What center on MTL is better than kadri? Answer, NONE ainec

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Your third line center was outproced by both Domi (70 points) and Danault (53 points) and did 12 more points than a 18 years old Center. Good try though

Kadri plays a shutdown third line role now lmfao. Esp since we have TWO franchise centers. Nice try though.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

I think most teams would give him 5 years right now. Are teams not going to give Myers 5 or 6 years then too? He's 2 years older, so his ends at 34 or 35. Zaitsev ends at 32, which is the kind of age you want it to end.

You can you overpay or you give a longer contract. The problem with Zaitsev is that he's both and he's not good enough to be both.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

except he’s had two professional coaches this season both in the NHL and for team Russia, and both coaches trusted him with the most difficult defensive match ups at the absolute highest level.

More credible: Pro coaches or JetsHomer? Hmmmm.

Then keep him.. ?

A top-4 RHD who can handle "the most difficult defensive match-ups at the absolute highest level" signed at $4.5M AAV would provide immense value to a cap-strapped team in need of a top-4 RHD, like Toronto?

Right.. ?

 

[sparxx87]

Then keep him.. ?

A top-4 RHD who can handle "the most difficult defensive match-ups at the absolute highest level" signed at $4.5M AAV would provide immense value to a cap-strapped team in need of a top-4 RHD, like Toronto?

Right.. ?

Yes. Problem is that he requested a trade because he’s sick of the abuse from fans and media.

While certainly not the same caliber of player, it was kind of like the treatment Larry Murphy got.

Unfortunate, really

 

[sansabri]

What MTL center is better? I'll wait.... No not will be better one day, no not a winger playing center . What center on MTL is better than kadri? Answer, NONE ainec

Domi is already a better C.

 

[Menzinger]

When the Leafs eventually move him without giving up a major asset or taking back a bad contract this forum is going to explode l

 

[sparxx87]

Sure, he can ignore the data and keep his unhealthy obsession with studs like Cleary, Helm, Abdelkader, Hyman, Zaitsev and Marleau.

Interesting choice of names. All players who can be counted on to perform the tasks set out for them on a pretty consistent basis. They’re all very versatile players that a coach can rely on. They all compete every shift.

Gee, I wonder why he’d like them?

 

[AfroThunder396]

What facts and evidence? Numbers and charts? Again, art not science. Your ‘data’ is incredibly incomplete. It misses far more than it actually records. This isn’t baseball. Sabre metrics won’t work because there it literally hundreds of variables on every shift compared to only a few for every single isolated AB in baseball.

Player metrics are a scam. Hate to break it to you.

All science is incomplete, that's why we still have science you dolt. If things could be predicted with flawless 100% accuracy then what's the point in having people conduct research? Why even play the game? Just because a thing can be improved doesn't mean it has no value.

Please explain what these 'literally hundreds of variables' are and what data isn't being recorded that should be. Because in the last 5 years there's never been more data - shot location, shot quality, score effects, zone effects, goaltender quality, rates for and against, shooter quality, etc. There's such a glut of data that analyzers are having trouble keeping up with it all.

Numbers and charts, that's exactly what science is. Dismissing them the way you do is disingenuous and shows that you're only interested in what's convenient to your existing opinions.

 

[TS Quint]

Of course not.. But do you think Babcock and Russian coach send him out to defend 1 goal lead in the last minute while leaving better options on the bench?

That would speak more to the rest of the Leafs defense than it would Zaitsev.

 

[TS Quint]

When the Leafs eventually move him without giving up a major asset or taking back a bad contract this forum is going to explode l

Just like when Nylander signed for 6 x 6.

 

[Seras]

I'm hoping we can keep him, team needs him badly

 

[Liferleafer]

Just like when Nylander signed for 6 x 6.

Lol...no, this site explolded screaming how bad Nylander's 6.96 was. Then Nelson signed for 6....Skinner signed for 9......

 

[sparxx87]

All science is incomplete, that's why we still have science you dolt. If things could be predicted with flawless 100% accuracy then what's the point in having people conduct research? Why even play the game? Just because a thing can be improved doesn't mean it has no value.

Please explain what these 'literally hundreds of variables' are and what data isn't being recorded that should be. Because in the last 5 years there's never been more data - shot location, shot quality, score effects, zone effects, goaltender quality, rates for and against, shooter quality, etc. There's such a glut of data that analyzers are having trouble keeping up with it all.

Numbers and charts, that's exactly what science is. Dismissing them the way you do is disingenuous and shows that you're only interested in what's convenient to your existing opinions.

Why even play the game? It’s a ******’ sport! It’s not about numbers and predictions. It’s about skill and competition and just having fun. From a spectator view it’s fun and exciting to watch. It’s the fastest moving sport on earth with almost non stop action, and there’s violence and bare knuckle fights. What’s not to love?

We clearly enjoy this game very differently. If I want to know about a player I’ll watch him, focus on him when he’s on the ice. See what he’s doing in relation to his ever-changing responsibility.. Defensemen are particularly difficult and that’s why so many good ones weren’t high picks... PVR has been a great tool for us with the ability to record multiple games while having the benefit to rewind if you want to see how a breakdown started etc.... and the benefit of fast forward eliminates commercials and intermissions. Also speeds up reviews ...

You have to watch the hockey. There’s no other way to do it.

 

[sparxx87]

That would speak more to the rest of the Leafs defense than it would Zaitsev.

Touché and you’re right. Zaitsev is miscast. The Leafs need a top pairing RHD so he can be their second option, not first.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Late second or early third round pick.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Why even play the game? It’s a ******’ sport! It’s not about numbers and predictions. It’s about skill and competition and just having fun. From a spectator view it’s fun and exciting to watch. It’s the fastest moving sport on earth with almost non stop action, and there’s violence and bare knuckle fights. What’s not to love?

We clearly enjoy this game very differently. If I want to know about a player I’ll watch him, focus on him when he’s on the ice. See what he’s doing in relation to his ever-changing responsibility.. Defensemen are particularly difficult and that’s why so many good ones weren’t high picks... PVR has been a great tool for us with the ability to record multiple games while having the benefit to rewind if you want to see how a breakdown started etc.... and the benefit of fast forward eliminates commercials and intermissions. Also speeds up reviews ...

You have to watch the hockey. There’s no other way to do it.

Do you seriously think people don't watch hockey and just look at spreadsheets to make decisions? Like, people say this all the time as a joke, but do you genuinely believe it's true? How much hockey do you think I watch? Do you assume people who agree with you watch more hockey than those who disagree with you?

If you like Zaitsev, that's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't like him. Like whoever you want. There's nothing wrong with liking bad players. But once you start making claims about how good he is, those need to be backed up with more than "I think" and "I feel". Deferring to someone else's opinion doesn't make your opinion stronger, evidence does. Objective, quantifiable, empirical evidence. And all of the evidence shows he's not a good player and is overpaid when compared to similar players.

I don't plan on coming back to this thread so feel free to have the last word.

 

[JetsHomer]

Of course not.. But do you think Babcock and Russian coach send him out to defend 1 goal lead in the last minute while leaving better options on the bench?

Being better than the Leafs bench option doesn't actually mean Zaitsev is a good defender

 

[sparxx87]

Do you seriously think people don't watch hockey and just look at spreadsheets to make decisions? Like, people say this all the time as a joke, but do you genuinely believe it's true? How much hockey do you think I watch? Do you assume people who agree with you watch more hockey than those who disagree with you?

If you like Zaitsev, that's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't like him. Like whoever you want. There's nothing wrong with liking bad players. But once you start making claims about how good he is, those need to be backed up with more than "I think" and "I feel". Deferring to someone else's opinion doesn't make your opinion stronger, evidence does. Objective, quantifiable, empirical evidence. And all of the evidence shows he's not a good player and is overpaid when compared to similar players.

I don't plan on coming back to this thread so feel free to have the last word.

Have you even read anything I’ve posted in here?

Objective, quantifiable, empirical evidence? You can’t be serious.