Zadina-Larkin pairing

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Diluting an already subpar Top6 w/o even 1 elite player is a bad idea. Fabbri has been working, has 5pts/9gp, +3 etc. Zadina has also been working, just needs to find his offensive game. Both should be stapled to the Top6, with Ryan rounding out the #6spot. Any combo(s) of MLB+RFZ. Smith-Namestnikov-Brome+Smith can be our L3 shutdown line. Nielsen/Erne-LGD-Helm as an energy line.

 

[Gniwder]

blash isnt capable of properly focusing / developing a player , move on from this coaching staff

It's disconcerting that virtually every player has regressed since last season, and the improvement is strictly from having better players on the back end and in goal.

He is beginning to open up a bit allowing the D to contribute more on offense, and the PP and PK have more movement but the offense is still struggling to put up any points. It's like they don't practice passing or shooting.

 

[13to40]

Bobby Ryan’s sick silky hands with Zadina on the other wing should be a line up with Fabs down the middle.

for the love of god, put Mantha back with Larkin and let’s try to have at least one dominant line.


My ideal line up would be:

Mantha- Larkin- Bert
Ryan- Fabbri- Zadina
Brome- Namestnikov- Smith
Nielsen/Erne/Flip- LGD- Helm

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

yeah send zadina down to A and bring up svech.
Svechnikov would have 15 points right now ez

 

[Oddbob]

Zadina has not been one of our better players.
He's been part of a big group doing next to nothing.

You are the only one who "sees" this! He has been making quite a few very smart defensive plays, and showing great IQ in covering for teammates who have pinched in. He has also made a number of good takeaways on the other team. He is coming back into our zone and helping all the time. Of course we would like some offence, but that will come yet.

So weird that a guy who literally gives AA a free pass and defends him then and now at every turn has an issue with a much better hockey player, who is playing fine. Everyone tells you you're wrong, yet you continue to act like you are the only one who is right.

Again I say, only you "see" this.

 

[Ezekial]

Zadina needs to be more aggressive in the offensive zone, making quicker decisions and shooting the puck more. He definitely doesn't need to be sent down.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Zadina needs to be more aggressive in the offensive zone, making quicker decisions and shooting the puck more. He definitely doesn't need to be sent down.

But sending him down will allow us to pull up Svech. Can't you see the motivation for this thread?

 

[ChrisJP23]

I'm curious once Bert is back if Blashill will put him with Larkin-Zadina or go back to BLM and Zadina back with Ryan-Fabbri.

 

[golffuul]

I'm curious once Bert is back if Blashill will put him with Larkin-Zadina or go back to BLM and Zadina back with Ryan-Fabbri.

I mean, I’m not sure Blashill is capable of thinking that any other combination is his “best”. I mean, he probably felt like he was having too much success with Givani up and it wrecked his brain.

 

[MBH]

What I am really watching is his back checking and moving north/south with the play. Those to me are more work ethic based. His position in the offensive zone may be his own making or it could be where Blash wants him.

A week ago you were creaming about how Rasmussen (3 points in 98 minutes) was garbage and didn't belong in the NHL. But Zadina (4 points in 161 minutes) does all the little things right.
Despite having the worst CF% among all Wings forwards, low shots/60 numbers and an inability to generate any chances that look even remotely dangerous.

Zadina's most common linemate since Feb. 7 is Larkin. You think you can run your top line with numbers like these?

5 games 0-1-1 for Larkin.
vs
10 games 3-1-4 without Zadina

5 games 1-0-1 for Zadina
vs
5 games 0-3-3 without Larkin.

Of course not. You can't keep that together.
But you double check the CF% to make sure you're not just overreacting to a lack of production.
You don't think so, because they haven't looked good either.
But you check, and their CF is shit. And Larkin's is much worse with Zadina.


Now, a good argument can be made that the real problem is Larkin, who struggled for a big portion of last year when Mantha was gone.
But two things 1) Larkin is a proven pro. 2) Larkin's CF pre-Zadina was good. Among the best on the team.

So... it might the Zadina fans happy to see him on Line 1... even if he's struggling and the team's struggling. Pride, I guess.
But I'd prefer to give Zadina the opportunity to success and the team the best chance to win.

Mantha back with Larkin.
Zadina with Fabbri and Ryan.
And if Zadina can't find his game there, he's going to end up with Nielsen or Glendening or something.

 

[golffuul]

My guess for why Zadina is up on the top line, instead of Martha, is because of Zadina’ s forecheck/work ethic. Offensive production is secondary to playing good team defense, at this stage of our rebuild.

 

[Oddbob]

A week ago you were creaming about how Rasmussen (3 points in 98 minutes) was garbage and didn't belong in the NHL. But Zadina (4 points in 161 minutes) does all the little things right.
Despite having the worst CF% among all Wings forwards, low shots/60 numbers and an inability to generate any chances that look even remotely dangerous.

Zadina's most common linemate since Feb. 7 is Larkin. You think you can run your top line with numbers like these?

5 games 0-1-1 for Larkin.
vs
10 games 3-1-4 without Zadina

5 games 1-0-1 for Zadina
vs
5 games 0-3-3 without Larkin.

Of course not. You can't keep that together.
But you double check the CF% to make sure you're not just overreacting to a lack of production.
You don't think so, because they haven't looked good either.
But you check, and their CF is shit. And Larkin's is much worse with Zadina.


Now, a good argument can be made that the real problem is Larkin, who struggled for a big portion of last year when Mantha was gone.
But two things 1) Larkin is a proven pro. 2) Larkin's CF pre-Zadina was good. Among the best on the team.

So... it might the Zadina fans happy to see him on Line 1... even if he's struggling and the team's struggling. Pride, I guess.
But I'd prefer to give Zadina the opportunity to success and the team the best chance to win.

Mantha back with Larkin.
Zadina with Fabbri and Ryan.
And if Zadina can't find his game there, he's going to end up with Nielsen or Glendening or something.

This is the problem with advanced stats, they many times show the wrong thing. Brendan Smith use to have good advanced numbers yet his play didn't indicate such. How about use your eyes and "watch" the game, instead of letting stats that are better for baseball than hockey. Hockey has way too many variables to take too much away from fancy extra stats. The puck can literally hit anything and be anywhere on every given shift. In baseball you pitch by yourself, hit by yourself and field the ball by yourself. In hockey you have 5 guys on each team and many times they all touch the puck in any given shift.

That and advanced stats seems to be heavy on shots for and against, as if that is the only thing there is in hockey. You can get lots of garbage shots on net, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of the game. Fancy stats basically also always run down defensive minded defenders because they don't generate a lot of offence, when there job is to defend, not score.

 

[Oddbob]

My guess for why Zadina is up on the top line, instead of Martha, is because of Zadina’ s forecheck/work ethic. Offensive production is secondary to playing good team defense, at this stage of our rebuild.

Martha usually has a better work ethic than Mantha!

 

[MBH]

This is the problem with advanced stats, they many times show the wrong thing. Brendan Smith use to have good advanced numbers yet his play didn't indicate such. How about use your eyes and "watch" the game, instead of letting stats that are better for baseball than hockey. Hockey has way too many variables to take too much away from fancy extra stats. The puck can literally hit anything and be anywhere on every given shift. In baseball you pitch by yourself, hit by yourself and field the ball by yourself. In hockey you have 5 guys on each team and many times they all touch the puck in any given shift.

That and advanced stats seems to be heavy on shots for and against, as if that is the only thing there is in hockey. You can get lots of garbage shots on net, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of the game. Fancy stats basically also always run down defensive minded defenders because they don't generate a lot of offence, when there job is to defend, not score.

There's only a problem with advanced stats when it's inconvenient for an opinion.
Zadina isn't a defensive minded player.
Go down the list.

Player CF% vs CF%WO
Larkin 46 vs 55
Brome 46 vs 43
Fabbri 25 vs 51
Namest 37 vs 52
Ryan 40 vs 53
Smith 52 vs 42
Ras 39 vs 54
Mantha 12 vs 59
Flip 36 vs 41
Erne 30 vs 52
Glendening 7 vs 54
Helm 12 vs 58
Bertuzzi 0 vs 54

When you can go down your entire lineup like this, something's up

Only 2 players have better CF% with Zadina than without. Both of those players spent most of their time playing playing with Zadina on the Larkin line.

Zadina's own shots/60 are down from 7.58 to 4.84.
His individual CF for is down from 12.16 to 7.04.

 

[Oddbob]

There's only a problem with advanced stats when it's inconvenient for an opinion.
Zadina isn't a defensive minded player.
Go down the list.

Player CF% vs CF%WO
Larkin 46 vs 55
Brome 46 vs 43
Fabbri 25 vs 51
Namest 37 vs 52
Ryan 40 vs 53
Smith 52 vs 42
Ras 39 vs 54
Mantha 12 vs 59
Flip 36 vs 41
Erne 30 vs 52
Glendening 7 vs 54
Helm 12 vs 58
Bertuzzi 0 vs 54

When you can go down your entire lineup like this, something's up

Only 2 players have better CF% with Zadina than without. Both of those players spent most of their time playing playing with Zadina on the Larkin line.

Zadina's own shots/60 are down from 7.58 to 4.84.
His individual CF for is down from 12.16 to 7.04.

Who cares about CF?

 

[MBH]

But sending him down will allow us to pull up Svech. Can't you see the motivation for this thread?

That's so pathetic.
I don't care who Svech comes up for.
I don't think he's got a shot. I don't think Yzerman/Blash ever planned on giving him a shot.

But there are plenty of options for Svech, without Zadina going down.
Brome 15 games 0-0-0 -7
Gagner 11 games 0-2-2
Filppula 13 games 1-1-2
Nielsen 15 games 0-3-3

The only forwards earning anything right now are
1) Larkin
2) Mantha
3)Ryan (but he's losing steam)
4) Fabbri
5) Glendening
6) Erne
7) Smith - but he's already been removed.

If I send Zadina to the AHL, it has nothing to do with who's left on the Wings, because even with Zadina's struggles, he's still as good or better than half the wings' forwards. It's to get Zadina playing like a top 6 forward again.

 

[MBH]

Who cares about CF?

I do. If he's not producing, I look to another layer.
Why does virtually every Red Wing have a higher CF without Zadina than with him?

 

[golffuul]

I do. If he's not producing, I look to another layer.
Why does virtually every Red Wing have a higher CF without Zadina than with him?

Probably because they're not playing defense and we end up losing 5-1 or worse?

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Who cares about CF?

so much this. Corsi is such a garbage statistic.

 

[Oddbob]

I do. If he's not producing, I look to another layer.
Why does virtually every Red Wing have a higher CF without Zadina than with him?

Why is that stat so important to you?

The list of guys doing less when you actually watch them starts with:

Nielsen
Erne
Gagner
Filppula (he has some good moments)
Namestnikov (scored but doesn't do much out there)

Zadina has been much better than all of those guys.

Also, he is producing, just not offensively yet, and he has improved a lot in forechecking and defensive plays and coverage. Also, we have a crappy team, so offence is going to be low. I mean Marc Staal is on the ice with Larkin and Zadina a lot, so that right there is going to hinder much offensive help from the blueline which our team is sorely lacking in, and is a huge reason we suck at getting offence. Larkin is one of the few guys who even gets the puck into the offensive zone with any regularity. Forwards need help to get in and set up, and we don't have the team to do much.

If we ever get some good defenceman that can contribute offensively without being a train wreck in our own end, we will be much better.

 

[MBH]

Why is that stat so important to you?

The list of guys doing less when you actually watch them starts with:

Nielsen
Erne
Gagner
Filppula (he has some good moments)
Namestnikov (scored but doesn't do much out there)

Zadina has been much better than all of those guys.

Also, he is producing, just not offensively yet, and he has improved a lot in forechecking and defensive plays and coverage. Also, we have a crappy team, so offence is going to be low. I mean Marc Staal is on the ice with Larkin and Zadina a lot, so that right there is going to hinder much offensive help from the blueline which our team is sorely lacking in, and is a huge reason we suck at getting offence. Larkin is one of the few guys who even gets the puck into the offensive zone with any regularity. Forwards need help to get in and set up, and we don't have the team to do much.

If we ever get some good defenceman that can contribute offensively without being a train wreck in our own end, we will be much better.

I've already told you.
By itself, CF doesn't mean shit.
But when he's got 1 goal in 10 games, 4 points in 10 games...
When he's got 1 point in 5 games on Line 1...
Then you go looking to see: Hey, is playing well, and just unlucky?

And that's when CF% comes in handy.

Because no, he's not playing well. And nobody serious thinks he's playing well.
But let's see if the advanced stats tell a different story.
Nope.
They don't.
They show that when Zadina is on the ice, the other team is firing more pucks at us than we are at them.
They show that Zadina has been bad with Larkin. And that Larkin has been worse next to him.

I get that if you bought your Zadina jersey, or that if you think he's dreamy, and you think he should be on Line 1, that fact-based assessments can be troublesome.

But Zadina has been awful with Larkin.
Larkin and Mantha haven't been very good since they were separated.
It's time to break up this shit line. But Mantha-Larkin back together. Give Zadina a chance to regain form with Fabbri.

If you're wondering - and judging by your disdain for facts you're not- who Zadina played well with last year:
Best CF% with
Helm 57 vs 42
Nielsen 52 vs 46 (somewhat traditional C)
Erne 51 vs 44
Glendening 48 vs 45
Flip 48 vs 44

Worst CF with
AA 34 vs 47
Fabbri 37 vs 46
Larkin 39 vs 48
Bert 40 vs 47
----
Stats wise 2 points or more
Flip 165 minutes 3-1-4
Bert 80 minutes 1-2-3
Larkin 96 minutes 1-1-2
Nielsen 46 minutes 1-1-2
-------------
This year stats (2 points or more)
Fabbri 26 minutes 0-2-2
Gagner 3 minutes 0-2-2
---
Our centers:
1) Larkin - Good player who dictates tempo, but not a great distributor or creative in the Ozone.
2) Fabbri - more of a shooter than distributor
3) Flip - 10 years ago, or even five years ago, he might have been ideal for Zadina.
4) Nielsen - ditto
5) Namestnikov - This guy wasn't productive center Kucherov and Stamkos. It's hard to see what he really brings to the table.
6) Glendening- Not a good option for Zadina.
--
I like the way Ryan works with Fabbri. I've liked the way Zadina has worked with Ryan.
It just seems obvious to me to go back to Ryan-Fabbri-Zadina.
Ryan can be to Zadina what Vanek was for AA a few years ago.

 

[Oddbob]

I've already told you.
By itself, CF doesn't mean shit.
But when he's got 1 goal in 10 games, 4 points in 10 games...
When he's got 1 point in 5 games on Line 1...
Then you go looking to see: Hey, is playing well, and just unlucky?

And that's when CF% comes in handy.

Because no, he's not playing well. And nobody serious thinks he's playing well.
But let's see if the advanced stats tell a different story.
Nope.
They don't.
They show that when Zadina is on the ice, the other team is firing more pucks at us than we are at them.
They show that Zadina has been bad with Larkin. And that Larkin has been worse next to him.

I get that if you bought your Zadina jersey, or that if you think he's dreamy, and you think he should be on Line 1, that fact-based assessments can be troublesome.

But Zadina has been awful with Larkin.
Larkin and Mantha haven't been very good since they were separated.
It's time to break up this shit line. But Mantha-Larkin back together. Give Zadina a chance to regain form with Fabbri.

If you're wondering - and judging by your disdain for facts you're not- who Zadina played well with last year:
Best CF% with
Helm 57 vs 42
Nielsen 52 vs 46 (somewhat traditional C)
Erne 51 vs 44
Glendening 48 vs 45
Flip 48 vs 44

Worst CF with
AA 34 vs 47
Fabbri 37 vs 46
Larkin 39 vs 48
Bert 40 vs 47
----
Stats wise 2 points or more
Flip 165 minutes 3-1-4
Bert 80 minutes 1-2-3
Larkin 96 minutes 1-1-2
Nielsen 46 minutes 1-1-2
-------------
This year stats (2 points or more)
Fabbri 26 minutes 0-2-2
Gagner 3 minutes 0-2-2
---
Our centers:
1) Larkin - Good player who dictates tempo, but not a great distributor or creative in the Ozone.
2) Fabbri - more of a shooter than distributor
3) Flip - 10 years ago, or even five years ago, he might have been ideal for Zadina.
4) Nielsen - ditto
5) Namestnikov - This guy wasn't productive center Kucherov and Stamkos. It's hard to see what he really brings to the table.
6) Glendening- Not a good option for Zadina.
--
I like the way Ryan works with Fabbri. I've liked the way Zadina has worked with Ryan.
It just seems obvious to me to go back to Ryan-Fabbri-Zadina.
Ryan can be to Zadina what Vanek was for AA a few years ago.

Again, you are the only one saying he isn't playing well/decent or what have you. Only one! Literally everyone else holds the opposite opinion on this topic. That may mean you are wrong.

 

[Shaman464]

A week ago you were creaming about how Rasmussen (3 points in 98 minutes) was garbage and didn't belong in the NHL. But Zadina (4 points in 161 minutes) does all the little things right.
Despite having the worst CF% among all Wings forwards, low shots/60 numbers and an inability to generate any chances that look even remotely dangerous.

Zadina's most common linemate since Feb. 7 is Larkin. You think you can run your top line with numbers like these?

5 games 0-1-1 for Larkin.
vs
10 games 3-1-4 without Zadina

5 games 1-0-1 for Zadina
vs
5 games 0-3-3 without Larkin.

Of course not. You can't keep that together.
But you double check the CF% to make sure you're not just overreacting to a lack of production.
You don't think so, because they haven't looked good either.
But you check, and their CF is shit. And Larkin's is much worse with Zadina.


Now, a good argument can be made that the real problem is Larkin, who struggled for a big portion of last year when Mantha was gone.
But two things 1) Larkin is a proven pro. 2) Larkin's CF pre-Zadina was good. Among the best on the team.

So... it might the Zadina fans happy to see him on Line 1... even if he's struggling and the team's struggling. Pride, I guess.
But I'd prefer to give Zadina the opportunity to success and the team the best chance to win.

Mantha back with Larkin.
Zadina with Fabbri and Ryan.
And if Zadina can't find his game there, he's going to end up with Nielsen or Glendening or something.

Great argument that forgets that there's a variable you choose to ignore for Larkin: Bert going down. It explains all of your data.

 

[golffuul]

Great argument that forgets that there's a variable you choose to ignore for Larkin: Bert going down. It explains all of your data.

Larkin also played well with Givani Smith. The variable in that equation seems to show that they need a guy who can create space and get to the net, for Larkin to be more effective. I mean, I get that we aren't trying to win...but at some point you have to not mess with the heads of players who genuinely work hard and deserve to be on an NHL roster.

 

[Shaman464]

Larkin also played well with Givani Smith. The variable in that equation seems to show that they need a guy who can create space and get to the net, for Larkin to be more effective. I mean, I get that we aren't trying to win...but at some point you have to not mess with the heads of players who genuinely work hard and deserve to be on an NHL roster.

I wouldn't say he played great with Smith. He played great with Smith and Zadina in the absence of Brome. But Smith played so few minutes and relatively easy minutes that you can't say much about if he was the driver of it over the few minutes they were together.