Speculation: Yzerman's strategy

[MBH]

Hedman averaged 1:20 on powerplay during his rookie season.

Seider averaged almost 3:00 per game during his rookie season.

Tampa could afford to play it safe with Hedman since their forwards were really good with Stamkos and MSL.

Their second year PP minutes?

Hedman averaged 1:39 per game.

Seider averaged 3:06 per game.

For reference, the defenseman with the highest average time on ice during the power play during the 2021-2022 season was Washington Capitals defenseman John Carlson at 3:58.

Average time on ice for first two seasons for each player.

Seider year 1: 23:02
Seider year 2: 23:01

Hedman year 1: 20:51
Hedman year 2: 21:01

Pretty disingenuous if you ask me to say it's an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes the Wings are garbage, so Seider was forced to play those minutes.

Hedman was not forced to play those minutes. I am just speculating, but something tells me Hedman would have been a lot more productive during his first two seasons if he was given the same amount of ice time and PP time as Seider. Good on Seider for taking advantage of those extra minutes but thinking that Seider has the potential to be on the same level as Hedman is obscenely optimistic.


I think Moritz Seider is a great pick and can be a very good player. I just don't think he is going to end up being an elite franchise defenseman. Am I really being so unreasonable?

Someone hasn't been drinking the Kool-Aid.
I thought we had a Kool-Aid mandate in here. 2 glasses per meal
We will know if you don't.


Seider is a very good defenseman.
I don't think he's ever going to be really good powerplay defenseman unless he turns a corner pretty hard in this department.
But even if he doesn't, he can still be a core defenseman on a winning team.

 

[jaster]

Ah, the forum's resident contrarian hitching his wagon to the thread's resident contrarian. Cute.

Anyway, what does pointing out that Seider got more PP time at the same age as Hedman prove? At best, it helps explain why Seider has so many more points at the same age. So, it evens out and now we're back to the same point.... that Seider is very comparable to Hedman at the same age. That point has not been disproven.

*chugs another glass of Kool-Aid*

 

[Frk It]

Hedman averaged 1:20 on powerplay during his rookie season.

Seider averaged almost 3:00 per game during his rookie season.

Tampa could afford to play it safe with Hedman since their forwards were really good with Stamkos and MSL.

Their second year PP minutes?

Hedman averaged 1:39 per game.

Seider averaged 3:06 per game.

For reference, the defenseman with the highest average time on ice during the power play during the 2021-2022 season was Washington Capitals defenseman John Carlson at 3:58.

Average time on ice for first two seasons for each player.

Seider year 1: 23:02
Seider year 2: 23:01

Hedman year 1: 20:51
Hedman year 2: 21:01

Pretty disingenuous if you ask me to say it's an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes the Wings are garbage, so Seider was forced to play those minutes.

Hedman was not forced to play those minutes. I am just speculating, but something tells me Hedman would have been a lot more productive during his first two seasons if he was given the same amount of ice time and PP time as Seider. Good on Seider for taking advantage of those extra minutes but thinking that Seider has the potential to be on the same level as Hedman is obscenely optimistic.


I think Moritz Seider is a great pick and can be a very good player. I just don't think he is going to end up being an elite franchise defenseman. Am I really being so unreasonable?

We gave opportunities to a lot of guys before Seider that they weren't able to do shit with.

How many 20 year old defenseman do you think could put up 50 points and hold their own if given a big role? It is rare. You can't just give any 20 year old a big role and get that return back.

I don't think he's ever going to be really good powerplay defenseman unless he turns a corner pretty hard in this department.

Tell me specifically why a kid who put up 50 points at 20 years old won't *ever* be a really good power play defenseman. He looks super comfortable/capable in the offensive zone to me.

 

[raymond23]

What the hell is going on here

 

[MBH]

Tell me specifically why a kid who put up 50 points at 20 years old won't *ever* be a really good power play defenseman. He looks super comfortable/capable in the offensive zone to me.

Lacks the point shot for one.

Without a point shot, the best he'll ever be is passable working the powerplay.

Most good teams want better than passable.


This year, even on the Red Wings
Hronek 144 minutes - 4-12-16
Seider 205 minutes - 1-11-12

 

[jkutswings]

What the hell is going on here

Being happy doesn't drive clicks. Some fans are hard wired for drama.

 

[Frk It]

Lacks the point shot for one.

Without a point shot, the best he'll ever be is passable working the powerplay.

Most good teams want better than passable.


This year, even on the Red Wings
Hronek 144 minutes - 4-12-16
Seider 205 minutes - 1-11-12

I think his shot is good enough to be a double digit goal guy per year. I have been impressed with his play in the offensive zone the last 2 years.

Maybe Edvinsson ends up as a better PP QB, or we add someone via free agency/trade, but I think he looks like a guy who is very capable of running your first PP unit to me. Especially with some more development and if we can continue to add more talent up front. He is only 21 but has shown a lot so far to me.

 

[jaster]

Tell me specifically why a kid who put up 50 points at 20 years old won't *ever* be a really good power play defenseman. He looks super comfortable/capable in the offensive zone to me.

He's going to very much be a PP asset moving forward. You can see the IQ, you can see the top-notch ability with the puck. His shot could improve (though he partly mitigates the lack of velocity with above-average shot selection), but just about everything else he brings to the PP is +. And even with an average shot... it's less important than ever; modern PP systems rely much less on the point shot than in the past. If you aren't feeling very confident watching him run the point with the man advantage, knowing there are several years of further development ahead of him, that's really too bad.

To expand on another poster's recent comment.... there isn't a poster I trust less when it comes to player evaluation than MBH. His analysis of individual players is about as good as Jack Edwards is at calling an unbiased Bruins game. His opinions are about as tired as the treads on his gym sneakers.

Yzerman's strategy? Continue to build around your #1 defenseman who is 21 and excels in all situations.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Someone hasn't been drinking the Kool-Aid.
I thought we had a Kool-Aid mandate in here. 2 glasses per meal
We will know if you don't.


Seider is a very good defenseman.
I don't think he's ever going to be really good powerplay defenseman unless he turns a corner pretty hard in this department.
But even if he doesn't, he can still be a core defenseman on a winning team.

Moritz Seider won the Calder trophy. It’s not just Red Wings slappies that think he’s good at hockey. The damn hockey world says he is.

And guess what? He’s simply not a finished product at *21* years old with two years in the NHL. Freaking Hedman took four NHL years to become what he is. Roman Josi took until his third year to eclipse 20 points.

It’s almost like defensemen take time to round out everything. I know Cale Makar and Nicklas Lidstrom came in and dominated… but that’s because they’re either a top 5 D all time or inarguably one of the top 5 players in the world currently.

Moritz Seider was a surprise pick at 6OA because he was graded as being really good defensively and his offense might be a little suspect. So, the fact that he came out and posted 50 points as a rookie with 21 on the PP… that’s a huge positive for Seider, not a “well, I just don’t know if he’s got it”

 

[MBH]

I think his shot is good enough to be a double digit goal guy per year. I have been impressed with his play in the offensive zone the last 2 years.

Maybe Edvinsson ends up as a better PP QB, or we add someone via free agency/trade, but I think he looks like a guy who is very capable of running your first PP unit to me. Especially with some more development and if we can continue to add more talent up front. He is only 21 but has shown a lot so far to me.

I said he was a very good defenseman - a core guy on a winning team.
That's all I need.


I think Edvinsson is more raw - more unfinished.
As of now, I don't think he looks that promising in the role either..

But because he's so raw, I'm not very certain at all with him.

I guess I don't care that much, one way or the other.

Lower-stats = lower contracts for your best big-minute defensemen.
You can go get a Barrie or Gostisbehere or Krug or DeAngelo to play lower 5 on 5 minutes and be PP specialists if that's what you need - and I think we're starting to see that the money for those guys is more reasonable.

Let the players be what they are and build around them accordingly.

In Seider, Edvinsson and Wallinder the Wings have three big, young mobile defenseman - one of whom might be a great powerplay QB.

But if they are *only* really good, two-way, big-minute defensemen, I'll be OK.

It won't hurt my feelings if they're outscored and outpaid by Quinn Hughes.

 

[Bench]

Ah, the forum's resident contrarian hitching his wagon to the thread's resident contrarian. Cute.

Anyway, what does pointing out that Seider got more PP time at the same age as Hedman prove? At best, it helps explain why Seider has so many more points at the same age. So, it evens out and now we're back to the same point.... that Seider is very comparable to Hedman at the same age. That point has not been disproven.

*chugs another glass of Kool-Aid*

Where are all these stupid Kool Aid posts when I'm bickering with you and the other skater brain posters on this forum?

Oh right we know how to have fun and be kind to one another so I guess we're all in a cult. That's it.

But when someone says, "hmm Seider MIGHT be good ONE DAY" oh no we're all in a cult again for pointing out that's an insanely conservative take for a player that's already established himself as capable to literally every other fan of NHL hockey.

Do not comply! Resist! Don't fall into the pressure of admitting Seider is good! Wait until you see the Twitter Files that expose SoupNazi covered up key information on Seiders power play time right before Calder voting. Free speech is deeeeeaaaaaaaaadddddd.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I said he was a very good defenseman - a core guy on a winning team.
That's all I need.


I think Edvinsson is more raw - more unfinished.
As of now, I don't think he looks that promising in the role either..

But because he's so raw, I'm not very certain at all with him.

I guess I don't care that much, one way or the other.

Lower-stats = lower contracts for your best big-minute defensemen.
You can go get a Barrie or Gostisbehere or Krug or DeAngelo to play lower 5 on 5 minutes and be PP specialists if that's what you need - and I think we're starting to see that the money for those guys is more reasonable.

Let the players be what they are and build around them accordingly.

In Seider, Edvinsson and Wallinder the Wings have three big, young mobile defenseman - one of whom might be a great powerplay QB.

But if they are *only* really good, two-way, big-minute defensemen, I'll be OK.

It won't hurt my feelings if they're outscored and outpaid by Quinn Hughes.

Then what the hell was that about “lol kool aid”

He is a very good defenseman who has proven that he’s a core piece with a lot of room left to grow.

That is all people are putting on him. A top pairing D, a core guy on a winning team. Nobody was saying he has to be a PP savant too. Statistically through 146 games, he compares very favorably to Victor Hedman. Does that mean he will be the next Victor Hedman and 70 points with lockdown defense is in the cards? Not necessarily… development isn’t linear. He’s a legitimate core piece building block and not just “we’re pinning our hopes to him because he’s ours”

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Where are all these stupid Kool Aid posts when I'm bickering with you and the other skater brain posters on this forum?

Oh right we know how to have fun and be kind to one another so I guess we're all in a cult. That's it.

But when someone says, "hmm Seider MIGHT be good ONE DAY" oh no we're all in a cult again for pointing out that's an insanely conservative take for a player that's already established himself as capable to literally every other fan of NHL hockey.

Do not comply! Resist! Don't fall into the pressure of admitting Seider is good! Wait until you see the Twitter Files that expose SoupNazi covered up key information on Seiders power play time right before Calder voting. Free speech is deeeeeaaaaaaaaadddddd.

Yvan eht nioJ

 

[Pavels Dog]

It’s almost like defensemen take time to round out everything. I know Cale Makar and Nicklas Lidstrom came in and dominated… but that’s because they’re either a top 5 D all time or inarguably one of the top 5 players in the world currently.

I mean Cale Makar was 21 when he played his first full NHL season. So it's not like he stepped in as an 18 year old.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

I love Kool Aid

 

[dalem177]

What the hell is going on here

No, no, no. You use this:

 

[dalem177]

Where are all these stupid Kool Aid posts when I'm bickering with you and the other skater brain posters on this forum?

Oh right we know how to have fun and be kind to one another so I guess we're all in a cult. That's it.

But when someone says, "hmm Seider MIGHT be good ONE DAY" oh no we're all in a cult again for pointing out that's an insanely conservative take for a player that's already established himself as capable to literally every other fan of NHL hockey.

Do not comply! Resist! Don't fall into the pressure of admitting Seider is good! Wait until you see the Twitter Files that expose SoupNazi covered up key information on Seiders power play time right before Calder voting. Free speech is deeeeeaaaaaaaaadddddd.

The trick isn't taking the Red Pill or the Blue Pill or the Black Pill. The trick is understanding that there is no Pill.

There is only Kool-aid.

 

[Reddwit]

I don’t think Seider is anywhere near a finished product on the PP yet. I still find his game super deferential. He sticks to the script. But I have no reason to think that a player who has shown creativity everywhere else on the ice doesn’t have some tricks up his sleeve for the PP. I just don’t think he’s comfortable owning the PP yet. He’s not really QBing yet. He’s deferring to the designated trigger men too much. He needs to gain the confidence to let more of his game shine through on the PP.

 

[SoupNazi]

We've definitely gone off the rails here.

Let's move this discussion to the appropriate threads - we have a Seider thread, we have threads about the summer, etc.