Yzerman vs. Beliveau

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Look up a couple posts.

The fantasy post where every factor working against Yzerman is discounted, all factors in his benefit are exhaggerated, an alternate reality is suggested where he accomplished more than he did, and a bunch of slanted stats are posted?

I gave it the consideration it deserved.

 

[jkrx]

Lets not forget a whopping 10 Cups!!!
And before the argument is made that it was easier to win Cups back then, by all means list all the players with 10 or more Cup rings heh

Its strange because you are pretty quick to dismiss another Wing when people talk about cups, trophies and are usually fairly quick with bringing up team strength. Suddenly they are valid arguments when it comes to a Hab.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

You get 99% by assuming Yzerman plays every game and maintains his scoring rate, but assuming all the other players in the league miss however many games they missed in real life.

My first post on this was deleted, so I won't comment but I do want o highlight how slanted and skewed and plain absurd this comparison is.

If I had to suggest a single argument that makes this a one sided comparison? Beliveau was top five in Hart voting nine times, Yzerman twice. Part of the difference is explained by era and competition, but certainly not all of it.

Hart voting only counts in 1994. All other years were flawed.

 

[pdd]

When you have to perform the Victorian cross of statistical gymnastics to try and make your argument, you should probably just reconsider the idea in the first place.

The fact that Yzerman was as statistically dominant as Beliveau should point out that he was still as OFFENSIVELY dominant, if not moreso given the team support each player had. It also points out that peak/prime Yzerman with a below-average supporting cast was comparable to peak/prime Beliveau with a hall of fame supporting cast (largely with concurrent or overlapping primes). Beliveau was more complete for a longer period, but he was never the dominant defensive player Yzerman was from the mid 90s to the early 2000s.

Lets not forget a whopping 10 Cups!!!
And before the argument is made that it was easier to win Cups back then, by all means list all the players with 10 or more Cup rings heh

So if I understand this correctly...

Henri Richard is the greatest player ever...

...and Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, and Tomas Holmstrom are as good as Wayne Gretzky.

Also, Kevin Hodson and better than Curtis Joseph, Roberto Luongo, Henrik Lundqvist, Miikka Kiprusoff, Olaf Kolzig, Jose Theodore, Kari Lehtonen, and Pekka Rinne, among others, and equal to Antti Niemi, Ed Belfour, Nikolai Khabibulin, Cam Ward, Jonathan Quick, Tim Thomas, Tuukka Rask, and Glenn Healy.

Yep. Cup counting, great way to evaluate a player's talent.

 

[pdd]

The fantasy post where every factor working against Yzerman is discounted, all factors in his benefit are exhaggerated, an alternate reality is suggested where he accomplished more than he did, and a bunch of slanted stats are posted?

I gave it the consideration it deserved.

No. The one where I posted the raw playoff scoring totals from their primes for the top ten players on their teams, and then also posted the totals for what it looked like dropping the one year where each missed a significant amount of games from a deep run (and therefore did not benefit from the scoring of those players that season).

If you consider RAW SCORING TOTALS as a stat that is "unfairly slanted in Yzerman's favor", then all I can do is say that you are refusing to agree with me despite the evidence, rather than logic.

 

[Plural]

The fact that Yzerman was as statistically dominant as Beliveau should point out that he was still as OFFENSIVELY dominant, if not moreso given the team support each player had. It also points out that peak/prime Yzerman with a below-average supporting cast was comparable to peak/prime Beliveau with a hall of fame supporting cast (largely with concurrent or overlapping primes). Beliveau was more complete for a longer period, but he was never the dominant defensive player Yzerman was from the mid 90s to the early 2000s.

But from mid-90's to early 2000's Yzerman was a shadow of the offensive player Beliveau was for 15 years.

 

[Epsilon]

I'm assuming there's a lot of fuzzy math going on in those "pro-rated" seasons of Yzerman. But I'll just check one of them - 1993-94. These are the top 10 players in points-per-game in 1993-94.

1. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.60
2. Cam Neely*-BOS 1.51
3. Eric Lindros-PHI 1.49
4. Sergei Fedorov-DET 1.46
5. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.45
6. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.41
7. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.41
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.36
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.34
10. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.27

Where exactly does Yzerman's 99% come from?

The "pro-rated" season is the player's season pro-rated to full-season GP (assuming the player missed significant time) and slotted into the existing leaderboard.

So it would have been as such:

Wayne Gretzky 130
Sergei Fedorov 120
*Steve Yzerman 119

This makes absolutely no sense. How does Yzerman suddenly jump several players who were ahead of him in PPG?

 

[Plural]

This makes absolutely no sense. How does Yzerman suddenly jump several players who were ahead of him in PPG?

I guess in that parallel university Yzerman is the only player who does not suffer from injuries?

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

No. The one where I posted the raw playoff scoring totals from their primes for the top ten players on their teams, and then also posted the totals for what it looked like dropping the one year where each missed a significant amount of games from a deep run (and therefore did not benefit from the scoring of those players that season).

If you consider RAW SCORING TOTALS as a stat that is "unfairly slanted in Yzerman's favor", then all I can do is say that you are refusing to agree with me despite the evidence, rather than logic.

I didn't say, 'unfairly slanted'. That would imply at least some basis in reality.

And you are not in a position to lecture anyone on evidence or logic.

 

[unknown33]

This makes absolutely no sense. How does Yzerman suddenly jump several players who were ahead of him in PPG?

Probably prorated the totals for Yzerman and left it the same for all other players.
He did this in a prior thread already.

Most hilarious case of playing around with numbers to suit an argument I've seen.

 

[mbhhofr]

You can list all the stats that you want to. I've seen both of them play over their whole careers. Who would I rather watch and feel was the most entertaining to watch? No contest, Les Gros Bill.

 

[Epsilon]

Probably prorated the totals for Yzerman and left it the same for all other players.
He did this in a prior thread already.

Most hilarious case of playing around with numbers to suit an argument I've seen.

It reminds me a lot of his "analysis" of what would have happened with Hart trophy voting were Gretzky and Lemieux not around, where in several years inexplicably a ton of the vote for Gretzky and/or Lemieux would have apparently shifted to Yzerman rather than going to players who finished well ahead of him in the Hart trophy voting. Also, his over-emphasis on Yzerman having received some throw-away votes for the Selke trophy in the late 1980s-early 1990s.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

It reminds me a lot of his "analysis" of what would have happened with Hart trophy voting were Gretzky and Lemieux not around, where in several years inexplicably a ton of the vote for Gretzky and/or Lemieux would have apparently shifted to Yzerman rather than going to players who finished well ahead of him in the Hart trophy voting. Also, his over-emphasis on Yzerman having received some throw-away votes for the Selke trophy in the late 1980s-early 1990s.

There's also the fact that, if Mario hadn't been around in 1993, Lafontaine would have won the Hart despite Gilmour finishing ahead of him in the actual voting. Because without Lemieux, voters would have focused more on Lafontaine. Or something.

And those mental gymnastics aren't even to benefit Lafontaine. Its to denigrate Gilmour's 93 season so he can elevate Fedorov's 1994 Hart win to mythic status.

 

[Epsilon]

There's also the fact that, if Mario hadn't been around in 1993, Lafontaine would have won the Hart despite Gilmour finishing ahead of him in the actual voting. Because without Lemieux, voters would have focused more on Lafontaine. Or something.

And those mental gymnastics aren't even to benefit Lafontaine. Its to denigrate Gilmour's 93 season so he can elevate Fedorov's 1994 Hart win to mythic status.

That at least can be supported through a fairly simple reasoning: many voters give winning the Art Ross trophy a lot of credit, which Lafontaine would have done. Does he pass Gilmour in those circumstances? Maybe, maybe not, but I could at least see it.

Where eva goes off the deep end as usual is him claiming removing Lemieux would cause Yzerman (who had all of 2 3rd place votes) to suddenly pick up a bunch of extra votes and jump players like Selanne, Turgeon, etc.

 

[pluppe]

No. The one where I posted the raw playoff scoring totals from their primes for the top ten players on their teams, and then also posted the totals for what it looked like dropping the one year where each missed a significant amount of games from a deep run (and therefore did not benefit from the scoring of those players that season).

If you consider RAW SCORING TOTALS as a stat that is "unfairly slanted in Yzerman's favor", then all I can do is say that you are refusing to agree with me despite the evidence, rather than logic.

That is a good point. How could RAW SCORING TOTALS ever be misleading.

But I think you underestimate the power of Yzermans team mates. He did after all play with Bob Probert who is arguably a better playoff performer than Gordie Howe. He does after all have a better RAW SCORING TOTAL playoff career high: 21 vs 20.

Come to think of it, I might start a Bob Probert vs Gordie Howe thread...

 

[Rhiessan71]

Its strange because you are pretty quick to dismiss another Wing when people talk about cups, trophies and are usually fairly quick with bringing up team strength. Suddenly they are valid arguments when it comes to a Hab.

No, not for Habs, for only one Hab...Jean beliveau.
No one is going to confuse Henri Richard with the greatest players ever but Beliveau, yes.

 

[thom]

Hey kids its a lot closer than you think.Dickie Moore Bernie Geoffrion won scoring with Jean in lineup.Who did Lafleur have on offence not much?Steve had Federov and played in a different system than Jean but once you shut down Steve you had a good chance to win.Hary Sindon said the best player might have been Dickie Moore not Jean?The edge goes to Jean Beliveau but it'-s very close

 

[tarheelhockey]

An interesting use of raw numbers: Beliveau had a rather large lead as the best scoring centerman in history until his competition started putting up expansion-inflated numbers. It wasn't until Espo in 1976 that someone passed him without a huge longevity advantage.

 

[Sentinel]

I am as much a Wings / Yzerman fan as anyone, but Eva is rrrrrreaaaallllllyyy out to the fantasy land here. IMO the only thing Yzerman is underrated in is his leadership, as he is consistently placed second to Messier, which is utter ********. That award should bear his name, not Messier's.

 

[pdd]

Where eva goes off the deep end as usual is him claiming removing Lemieux would cause Yzerman (who had all of 2 3rd place votes) to suddenly pick up a bunch of extra votes and jump players like Selanne, Turgeon, etc.

Alright, let's test this hypothesis.

Lemieux was named on every ballot, with 49 first-place votes and 1 second place vote.

Turgeon put up a fifth-place finish, (0-2-6) for 12 points.
Selanne was sixth with (0-0-5) for 5 points.
Chelios was seventh with (0-0-3) for 3 points.
Yzerman was eighth with (0-0-2) for 2 points.

Now throw into the mix Lemieux's 248 points. We can assume a large number of them are scooped up by Gilmour and LaFontaine. But there would still be a significant number of points left. Is it such an impossible suggestion that Yzerman (who would then be the ES points leader by a wide margin) could have passed Chelios, Selanne, Turgeon, or even Oates?

 

[Wrath]

I am as much a Wings / Yzerman fan as anyone, but Eva is rrrrrreaaaallllllyyy out to the fantasy land here. IMO the only thing Yzerman is underrated in is his leadership, as he is consistently placed second to Messier, which is utter ********. That award should bear Beliveau's name, not Messier's.

Fixed

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

I would like to see a comparison between Bobby Hull & John Ogrodnick now, plz.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

shoot everyone yzerman was competing with in the right kneecap and prorate their points totals, award votes, and cups accordingly. yzerman, of course, would lose nothing because that dude can almost win a conn smythe even with only one knee.

 

[pdd]

Hey kids its a lot closer than you think.Dickie Moore Bernie Geoffrion won scoring with Jean in lineup.Who did Lafleur have on offence not much?

60-goal scorer Steve Shutt as a regular linemate...

Steve had Federov

Fedorov hit his prime at the very end of Yzerman's prime, in a season Yzerman missed a third of. That's like counting Selanne's 05-06 season against Fedorov when considering quality of teammates.

Prime Yzerman had Gerard Gallant, and a pre-prime Adam Oates. he then had a pre-prime Fedorov and post-prime Jimmy Carson, and a coach who decided to roll his lines because he had three good centers, even though the team was very weak on the wing. And the team's best winger (Ray Sheppard) didn't even play with Yzerman (when he did, in 93-94, he scored 50+ goals; and pace for 50+ again the next year with Yzerman).

 

[pdd]

I would like to see a comparison between Bobby Hull & John Ogrodnick now, plz.

Ok.

Bobby Hull
Top ten player of all-time.

John Ogrodnick
Decent but far too one-dimensional player that reportedly flipped out when Yzerman (better leader, better player even at the time) was named captain over him.