Yzerman vs. Beliveau

[pdd]

This is a discussion that spawned in another thread. I thought it should probably have its own.

The following is a table of their offensive merits; I have "removed" the big four of Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and Orr; if this removal would definitively change the outcome of the scoring race (such as Stevens 1992), I have used the new leader's total as the number. If it is unclear whether or not the winner would remain the same (Esposito/Hull 1969, or Jagr/Sakic 1996), I have included the actual winner's number and the second-place number. Seasons marked with an asterisk are pro-rated to a full season's GP (the raw numbers are sometimes also included for t

Player|Season|%1st
Yzerman|88-89|1.00
Beliveau|55-56|1.00
Beliveau|56-57|1.00
Yzerman*|93-94|0.99
Yzerman|89-90|0.98
Yzerman*|87-88|0.97
Beliveau|54-55|0.97
Beliveau|58-59|0.95
Beliveau|60-61|0.95
Beliveau*|67-68|0.93

Beliveau|59-60|0.91
Yzerman|91-92|0.94
Yzerman|92-93|0.93
Beliveau*|57-58|0.89
Beliveau|63-64|0.88
Yzerman|86-87|0.86
Beliveau|62-63|0.83
Yzerman|90-91|0.82
Yzerman|99-00|0.82
Beliveau*|53-54|0.81

Yzerman*|01-02|0.79
Beliveau*|61-62|0.79
Beliveau|65-66|0.79
Yzerman|95-96|0.64/0.79
Yzerman|87-88|0.78
Yzerman|96-97|0.78
Beliveau|67-68|0.78
Beliveau|68-69|0.65/0.77
Yzerman|83-84|0.72
Beliveau|57-58|0.70

Yzerman|93-94|0.68
Yzerman|97-98|0.68
Yzerman|84-85|0.68
Yzerman*|00-01|0.67
Beliveau*|64-65|0.60
Beliveau*|69-70|0.60
Yzerman|98-99|0.58
Yzerman|94-95|0.54
Yzerman|85-86|0.54
Yzerman|03-04|0.54

Beliveau|66-67|0.52
Beliveau|70-71|0.50
Yzerman*|02-03|0.39
Yzerman*|05-06|0.37

I'd like to put up Beliveau's entire history of ES scoring as it relates to the top scorers that season (ES and overall), but the best I can get is the few years hockey-reference.com has at the end of his career. I'll also put up Yzerman's career ES scoring.

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1967-68|Gordie Howe|RW|74|60|0.81
1967-68|Stan Mikita|C|72|58|0.81
1967-68|Jean Beliveau|C|59|46|0.95

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1968-69|Phil Esposito|C|74|83|1.12
1968-69|Jean Beliveau|C|69|62|0.90

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1969-70|Bobby Orr|C|76|64|0.84
1969-70|Jean Beliveau|C|63|28|0.44

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1970-71|Phil Esposito|C|78|99|1.27
1970-71|Jean Beliveau|C|70|52|0.74

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1983-84|Wayne Gretzky|C|74|137|1.85
1983-84|Steve Yzerman|C|80|56|0.70

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1984-85|Wayne Gretzky|C|80|147|1.84
1984-85|Steve Yzerman|C|80|56|0.70

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1985-86|Wayne Gretzky|C|80|144|1.80
1985-86|Mario Lemieux|C|79|76|0.96
1985-86|Steve Yzerman|C|51|24|0.47

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1986-87|Wayne Gretzky|C|79|124|1.57
1986-87|Steve Yzerman|C|80|57|0.71

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1987-88|Wayne Gretzky|C|64|91|1.42
1987-88|Mario Lemieux|C|77|74|0.96
1987-88|Steve Yzerman|C|64|61|0.95

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1988-89|Mario Lemieux|C|76|102|1.34
1988-89|Wayne Gretzky|C|78|100|1.28
1988-89|Steve Yzerman|C|80|101|1.26

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1989-90|Wayne Gretzky|C|73|96|1.32
1989-90|Mario Lemieux|C|59|71|1.20
1989-90|Steve Yzerman|C|79|79|1.00
1989-90|Mark Messier|C|79|71|0.90

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1990-91|Wayne Gretzky|C|78|103|1.32
1990-91|Steve Yzerman|C|80|68|0.85

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1991-92|Mario Lemieux|C|64|74|1.16
1991-92|Kevin Stevens|L|80|81|1.01
1991-92|Steve Yzerman|C|79|66|0.84

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1992-93|Mario Lemieux|C|60|96|1.60
1992-93|Steve Yzerman|C|84|87|1.04

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1993-94|Eric Lindros|C|65|67|1.03
1993-94|Sergei Fedorov|C|82|81|0.99
1993-94|Steve Yzerman|C|58|52|0.90
1993-94|Wayne Gretzky|C|81|62|0.77

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1994-95|Eric Lindros|C|46|46|1.00
1994-95|Mikael Renberg|R|47|45|0.96
1994-95|Jaromir Jagr|R|48|45|0.94
1994-95|Steve Yzerman|C|47|19|0.40

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1995-96|Jaromir Jagr|R|82|95|1.16
1995-96|Mario Lemieux|F|70|73|1.04
1995-96|Steve Yzerman|C|80|50|0.63

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1996-97|Eric Lindros|C|52|56|1.10
1996-97|Jaromir Jagr|R|63|67|1.06
1996-97|Mario Lemieux|C|76|79|1.04
1996-97|John Leclair|L|82|81|0.99
1996-97|Steve Yzerman|C|81|57|0.70

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1997-98|Paul Kariya|L|22|26|1.18
1997-98|Teemu Selänne|R|73|67|0.92
1997-98|Jaromir Jagr|R|77|64|0.83
1997-98|Steve Yzerman|C|75|39|0.52

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1998-99|Jaromir Jagr|R|81|82|1.01
1998-99|Steve Yzerman|C|80|47|0.59

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
1999-00|Jaromir Jagr|R|63|67|1.06
1999-00|Steve Yzerman|C|78|46|0.59

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
2000-01|Mario Lemieux|C|43|43|1.00
2000-01|Jaromir Jagr|R|81|78|0.96
2000-01|Joe Sakic|C|82|66|0.80
2000-01|Steve Yzerman|C|54|31|0.57

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
2001-02|Alexei Kovalev|F|67|53|0.79
2001-02|Jaromir Jagr|R|69|54|0.78
2001-02|Jarome Iginla|R|82|64|0.78
2001-02|Steve Yzerman|C|52|24|0.46

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
2002-03|Peter Forsberg|F|75|73|0.97
2002-03|Steve Yzerman|F|16|5|0.31

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
2003-04|Peter Forsberg|C|39|30|0.77
2003-04|Martin St. Louis|R|82|53|0.65
2003-04|Steve Yzerman|F|75|33|0.44

Year|Player|Pos|GP|ESP|ESPPG
2005-06|Joe Thornton|C|81|72|0.89
2005-06|Jaromir Jagr|R|82|71|0.87
2005-06|Steve Yzerman|F|61|23|0.38

Now, the general opinion is that Beliveau is a top-ten player of all-time, possibly the #5. Many here don't rank Yzerman nearly so high. I (obviously) would put a challenge to that notion and want to know what makes Beliveau so "untouchable" in people's minds that comparing Yzerman to him on a performance level is considered laughable by some here.

Click to read more...

 

[Teeder9]

Looking at the last 4 seasons of yzerman's career esp, Beliveau was certainly better. Not sure what point you want to make about the previous seasons, unless we should assume that, because you have Yzerman's stats and not Beliveau's, he is better by default? Aside from all that, Beliveau was everything StevieY turned out to be later in his career almost from the beginning and certainly as good offensively as Yzerman ever was. Even ridding yourself of Howe, Gretzky, and Lemieux doesn't help much. He gains 1 Art Ross to tie Beliveau for the one he got outright against a prime Howe. He also won 2 Hart trophy's against a prime Howe. Sorry chum. No matter how you try and make it work, 80 cents doesn't equal a dollar, and I haven't even tried the secondary arguments where he also beats him.

 

[Dreakmur]

Jean Beliveau, Stan Mikita, and Howie Morenz are 3-5 on the all-time center list.

Yzerman is more in the 15 range.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm assuming there's a lot of fuzzy math going on in those "pro-rated" seasons of Yzerman. But I'll just check one of them - 1993-94. These are the top 10 players in points-per-game in 1993-94.

1. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.60
2. Cam Neely*-BOS 1.51
3. Eric Lindros-PHI 1.49
4. Sergei Fedorov-DET 1.46
5. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.45
6. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.41
7. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.41
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.36
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.34
10. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.27

Where exactly does Yzerman's 99% come from?

 

[shazariahl]

I don't really understand why ES points are used, but no mention of total points. I could understand ESP having its own column, but not why total points wouldn't be used as well. Scoring on the PP is important too, and completely ignoring it seems strange to me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't really understand why ES points are used, but no mention of total points. I could understand ESP having its own column, but not why total points wouldn't be used as well. Scoring on the PP is important too, and completely ignoring it seems strange to me.

Beliveau was probably the best power play player of his era, so are you surprised that he's focusing on even strength scoring when he wants to pump up Yzerman?

 

[pdd]

I'm assuming there's a lot of fuzzy math going on in those "pro-rated" seasons of Yzerman. But I'll just check one of them - 1993-94. These are the top 10 players in points-per-game in 1993-94.

1. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.60
2. Cam Neely*-BOS 1.51
3. Eric Lindros-PHI 1.49
4. Sergei Fedorov-DET 1.46
5. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.45
6. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.41
7. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.41
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.36
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.34
10. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.27

Where exactly does Yzerman's 99% come from?

The "pro-rated" season is the player's season pro-rated to full-season GP (assuming the player missed significant time) and slotted into the existing leaderboard.

So it would have been as such:

Wayne Gretzky 130
Sergei Fedorov 120
*Steve Yzerman 119

 

[pdd]

I don't really understand why ES points are used, but no mention of total points. I could understand ESP having its own column, but not why total points wouldn't be used as well. Scoring on the PP is important too, and completely ignoring it seems strange to me.

The ESP chart is (mostly) something I had already put together in a previous thread (with many more names on it from 87-88 through 06-07). I can do regular scoring if you want.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm assuming there's a lot of fuzzy math going on in those "pro-rated" seasons of Yzerman. But I'll just check one of them - 1993-94. These are the top 10 players in points-per-game in 1993-94.

1. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.60
2. Cam Neely*-BOS 1.51
3. Eric Lindros-PHI 1.49
4. Sergei Fedorov-DET 1.46
5. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.45
6. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.41
7. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.41
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.36
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.34
10. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.27

Where exactly does Yzerman's 99% come from?

You get 99% by assuming Yzerman plays every game and maintains his scoring rate, but assuming all the other players in the league miss however many games they missed in real life.

====

If I had to suggest a single argument that makes this a one sided comparison? Beliveau was top five in Hart voting nine times, Yzerman twice. Part of the difference is explained by era and competition, but certainly not all of it.

 

[Rhiessan71]

And where are the playoff scoring comparisons?

In a much lower scoring era, Jean produced 1.09 PpG to Yzerman's 0.94 PpG in the playoffs and despite playing a whopping 34 less playoff games, still scored 9 more goals that Stevie did.
That's 0.49 GpG to 0.36 GpG btw, not an insignificant margin to say the least.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm surprised this is even being debated. Beliveau has a solid case for the fifth best player ever while Yzerman is a stretch to be top twenty.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Vintage Eva.

 

[#66]

I'm surprised this is even being debated. Beliveau has a solid case for the fifth best player ever while Yzerman is a stretch to be top twenty.

Yup Beliveau's lowest ranking is around top 8. While Yzerman is in the 25 to 30 range.

Yzerman vs Messier is closer to me. Yzerman had better peak years while Mess had the longevity.

 

[Plural]

The scoring finishes of Beliveau also seem a lot more impressive. I know he played in era when there was 6-14 teams but being in the top 5 for 8 times opposed to Yzerman's 3 is a pretty clear sign of whom had better offensive longevity.

Even strength scoring might be one of the arguments Yzerman has but Beliveau hsa a lot more arguments going on for him.

I don't think your math is nothing short of shaky either.


Edit:

Season PPG finishes are also very heavily in favor of Beliveau. I personally don't think it is reasonable to give credit from games not played, but since we are doing so in this thread, why doesn't Beliveau have 3 Art Ross titles considering he led the league in PPG for three years.

Yzerman was 3rd once, admittedly he was against Gretzky, Lemieux so I would give him the "honorable 1st".

But it goes like this:

PPG finishes

1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd against:
3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th

With Gretzky or no Gretzky, I would see Beliveau as the superior offensive player. With a clear margin.

You have also repeatedly touted Howe as having greater offensive peak/dominance than Lemieux. Well, Beliveau beat prime Howe in scoring race. Something Yzerman never managed against Lemieux.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Now, the general opinion is that Beliveau is a top-ten player of all-time, possibly the #5. Many here don't rank Yzerman nearly so high. I (obviously) would put a challenge to that notion and want to know what makes Beliveau so "untouchable" in people's minds that comparing Yzerman to him on a performance level is considered laughable by some here.

I like Yzerman as much as almost anyone but there is no way you can spin things to have him challenge Beliveau.

As clearly evidenced by your shaky statistical arguments here.

 

[MXD]

When somebody wants to make a point for the wrong reasons...

Well, that gives this thread.

 

[JaymzB]

I'm assuming there's a lot of fuzzy math going on in those "pro-rated" seasons of Yzerman. But I'll just check one of them - 1993-94. These are the top 10 players in points-per-game in 1993-94.

1. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.60
2. Cam Neely*-BOS 1.51
3. Eric Lindros-PHI 1.49
4. Sergei Fedorov-DET 1.46
5. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.45
6. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.41
7. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.41
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.36
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.34
10. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.27

Where exactly does Yzerman's 99% come from?

Jimmy Carson

 

[Rhiessan71]

Lets not forget a whopping 10 Cups!!!
And before the argument is made that it was easier to win Cups back then, by all means list all the players with 10 or more Cup rings heh

 

[tony d]

Yzerman was a heck of a player but he's not close to being on Beliveau's level.

 

[Epsilon]

When you have to perform the Victorian cross of statistical gymnastics to try and make your argument, you should probably just reconsider the idea in the first place.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I clicked on this thread with an open mind, but after reading about 10 posts the issue was pretty well settled. This was an ill-advised effort to pump a Wing for the sake of pumping a Wing.

 

[pdd]

And where are the playoff scoring comparisons?

In a much lower scoring era, Jean produced 1.09 PpG to Yzerman's 0.94 PpG in the playoffs and despite playing a whopping 34 less playoff games, still scored 9 more goals that Stevie did.
That's 0.49 GpG to 0.36 GpG btw, not an insignificant margin to say the least.

Being fair, Jean Beliveau played a great deal of his playoff games in his prime with several of the league's top forwards; most of Yzerman's playoff games came outside of his prime. The ones that DID come in his prime came often were with average to below-average wingers such as Dave Barr. Would Dave Barr have even MADE the 1950s/early 60s Canadiens? He played on Yzerman's line for about a year and a half. A shell of Paul MacLean played with Yzerman. BOB PROBERT played with Yzerman. These guys MIGHT make the Hawks or Rangers in the 1950s, but probably not the Canadiens. And until 1991-92, the Red Wings had NOTHING on the back end. a pre-prime Steve Chiasson was the best they could do; he was very solid defensively but wan't doing anything offensively (he broke out offensively in 1992-93 and was an all-star).

Let's take a look at prime playoff scoring for a moment.

Prime Beliveau (1954-55 to 1963-64) had 81 points in 75 games in the playoffs. By comparison, prime Yzerman (87-88 to 93-94) had 39 in 37. Yzerman was also high in Hart voting in 1986-87, and that year could be *argued as part of his prime. So we'll perform calculations with and without it. Admittedly, Yzerman's prime is shorter (either 7 or 8 years), so that is a point in Beliveau's favor. Projecting Yzerman's PPG to Beliveau's GP, it works out to either 79.1 or 80.7 points. Not so different, is it? Yzerman is seriously harmed in this comparison by the fact that his teams in his prime didn't have a)capable defense (until 1991-92, with the influx of guys like Lidstrom/Konstantinov/McCrimmon/Howe plus the breakout of Chiasson and Racine; b)good goaltending (until Cheveldae's big season in 1991-92, partially powered by the aforementioned defense); or c) any significant depth of talent at forward (until 1993-94, with the addition of Ciccarelli and the rookie season of Drake, plus the breakout of Kozlov and Primeau; Yzerman's injury would damage his season and Essensa's terrible playoff performance would ruin the Wings' chances).

Let's take a look at their scoring compared to teammates in their primes; goal/assist/point leaders in bold:

Montreal 1955-1964 Playoff Scoring Leaders:

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Bernie Geoffrion|82| 40 - 48 - 88 |0.49-0.59-1.07
Jean Beliveau|75| 40 -41-81|0.53-0.55- 1.08
Dickie Moore|78|27-45-74|0.37-0.58-0.94
Henri Richard|67|17-40-57|0.25-0.60-0.85
Doug Harvey|67|8-41-49|0.12- 0.61 -0.73
Maurice Richard|42|25-19-44| 0.60 -0.45-1.05
Claude Provost|73|16-18-34|0.22-0.25-0.47
Bert Olmstead|41|4-26-30|0.10-0.63-0.73
Phil Goyette|52|12-14-26|0.23-0.27-0.50
Floyd Curry|39|12-11-23|0.31-0.28-0.59

Let's average it by number of years played for each player's contributions (as not everyone played all ten years with the Canadiens).

Montreal 1955-64 Playoff Scoring leaders (top ten total, averaged per year)

Player|Years|AvgGP|AvgG-AvgA-AvgPts
Maurice Richard|5|8.4| 5 -3.8- 8.8
Bernie Geoffrion|10|8.2|4-4.8- 8.8
Jean Beliveau|10|7.5|4-4.1-8.1
Dickie Moore|9|8.7|3-5-8
Bert Olmstead|4|10.3|1- 6.5 -7.5
Doug Harvey|7|9.6|1.1-5.9-7
Henri Richard|9|7.4|1.9-4.4-6.3
Floyd Curry|4|9.8|3-2.75-5.75
Claude Provost|9|6.1|1.8-2-3.8
Phil Goyette|7|7.4|1.7-2-3.7

Beliveau had some pretty solid support; he wasn't even the top scorer on that team. Best player, yes. Top scorer, no.

Now let's do the top ten scorers for both the 86-87 to 93-94 and the 87-88 to 93-94 periods for Yzerman.

Detroit 1987-94 Playoff Scoring Leaders:

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Steve Yzerman|53| 22 - 35 - 57 | 0.42 - 0.66 - 1.08
Bob Probert|63|14-29-43|0.22-0.46-0.68
Gerard Gallant|55|18-21-39|0.33-0.38-0.71
Adam Oates|38|12-27-39|0.32-0.71-1.03
Sergei Fedorov|32|10-23-33|0.31-0.72-1.03
Shawn Burr|63|16-15-31|0.25-0.24-0.49
Petr Klima|31|13-14-27|0.42-0.45-0.87
Steve Chiasson|46|12-14-26|0.26-0.30-0.57
Brent Ashton|32|11-14-25|0.34-0.44-0.78
John Chabot|22|5-16-21|0.23-0.73-0.95

Detroit 1987-94 Playoff Scoring leaders (top ten total, averaged per year)

Player|Years|AvgGP|AvgG-AvgA-AvgPts
Adam Oates|3|12.7|4-9-13
Brent Ashton|2|32|5.5-7-12.5
John Chabot|2|11|2.5-8-10.5
Petr Klima|3|10.3|4.3-4.7-9
Sergei Fedorov|4|8|2.5-5.8-8.3
Steve Yzerman|8|6.6|2.8-4.4-7.1
Gerard Gallant|7|7.9|2.4-3-5.4
Bob Probert|8|7.9|1.8-3.6-5.4
Shawn Burr|8|7.9|2-1.9-3.9
Steve Chiasson|8|5.8|1.5-1.8-3.3

Short term guys like Oates, Chabot, etc who posted big numbers when they had a huge bump in ice time in the 1988 playoffs (when Yzerman was injured) have strong averages, but Yzerman is far, far ahead in total offense (not to mention Probert's 21 points that PO year) and only Oates and Fedorov (who were never on the roster together) come anywhere close to Yzerman's offensive realm in the playoffs for 87-94. Now, on to 88-94:

Detroit 1988-94 Playoff Scoring Leaders:

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Steve Yzerman|37| 17 -22- 39 |0.46-0.59-1.05
Bob Probert|47|11- 25 -36|0.23.053-0.77
Sergei Fedorov|32|10-23-33|0.31-0.72-1.03
Adam Oates|22|8-20-28|0.36- 0.91 -1.27
Steve Chiasson|44|12-14-26|0.27-0.31-0.59
Gerard Gallant|39|10-15-25|0.26-0.38-0.54
Petr Klima|18|12-12-24| 0.67 -0.67-1.33
Shawn Burr|47|9-13-22|0.19-0.28-0.47
John Chabot|22|5-16-21|0.23-0.73-0.95
Paul Coffey|14|3-15-18|0.21-1.07- 1.29

Detroit 1988-94 Playoff Scoring leaders (top ten total, averaged per year)

Player|Years|AvgGP|AvgG-AvgA-AvgPts
Petr Klima|2|9|6-6-12
John Chabot|2|11|2.5-8-10.5
Paul Coffey|2|7|1.5-7.5-9
Sergei Fedorov|4|8|2.5-5.8-8.3
Adam Oates|2|11|4-10-7
Steve Yzerman|7|5.3|2.4-3.1-5.6
Bob Probert|7|6.7|1.6-3.6-5.1
Gerard Gallant|6|6.5|1.7-2.5-4.2
Steve Chiasson|7|6.3|1.6-2-3.6
Shawn Burr|7|6.6|1.3-1.9-3.1

But this doesn't tell the entire story for either player. Interestingly, both have a prime season where their team won two rounds and they only played three games. So let's look at what the numbers say when those years are removed:

Montreal 1955-1964 Playoff Scoring Leaders (1959 playoffs excluded):

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Jean Beliveau|72| 39 -37- 76 |0.54-0.51-1.06
Bernie Geoffrion|71|35- 40 -75|0.49-0.56-1.06
Dickie Moore|67|22-33-55|0.33-0.49-0.82
Henri Richard|56|14-32-46|0.25-0.57-0.81
Maurice Richard|38|25-19-44|
Doug Harvey|56|7-30-37|0.13-0.54-0.66
Bert Olmstead|41|4-26-30|0.10-0.63-0.73
Claude Provost|62|10-16-26|0.16-0.26-0.42
Floyd Curry|39|12-11-23|0.31-0.28-0.59
Phil Goyette|42|12-10-22|0.29-0.24-0.52

Pretty solid scoring support, especially when compared to...

Detroit 1987-94 Playoff Scoring Leaders (1988 playoffs excluded):

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Steve Yzerman|50| 21 - 32 - 53 |0.42-64-1.06
Sergei Fedorov|32|10-23-33|0.31-0.72-1.03
Bob Probert|47|6-16-22|0.13-0.34-0.47
Steve Chiasson|37|10-12-22|0.27-0.32-0.59
Shawn Burr|42|7-12-19|0.17-0.29-0.45
Adam Oates|22|4-15-19|0.18-0.68-0.86
Paul Coffey|14|3-15-18|0.21-1.07-1.29
Gerard Gallant|31|2-15-17|0.06-0.48-0.55
Ray Sheppard|25|10-6-16|0.40-0.24-0.64
Dino Ciccarelli|14|9-4-13|0.64-0.29-0.93
Brent Ashton|16|4-9-13|0.25-0.56-0.81
Slava Kozlov|11|2-7-9|0.18-0.64-0.82
Petr Klima|8|1-4-5|0.13-0.50-0.63
John Chabot|6|1-1-2|0.17-0.17-0.33

That's just ridiculous; Yzerman is two points away from scoring as much s #2 and #3 combined.

Detroit 1989-94 Playoff Scoring Leaders:

Player|GP|G-A-Pts|GPG-APG-PPG
Steve Yzerman|34|16-19-35|0.46-0.59-1.05
Sergei Fedorov|32|10-23-33|0.31-0.72-1.03
Steve Chiasson|35|10-12-22|0.27-0.31-0.59
Shawn Burr|38|6-12-18|0.16-0.32-0.47
Paul Coffey|14|3-15-18|0.21-1.07-1.29
Ray Sheppard|25|10-6-16|0.40-0.24-0.64
Dino Ciccarelli|14|9-4-13|0.64-0.29-0.93
Bob Probert|31|3-12-15|0.10-0.39-0.48
Gerard Gallant|23|4-6-10|0.17-0.26-0.43
Slava Kozlov|11|2-7-9|0.18-0.64-0.82

That list just makes me sad; the GP number makes it pretty clear that none of the guys played much, and if you know anything you know that most of them were added to the roster at the end of Yzerman's prime.

So the fact that prime Yzerman had comparable playoff PPG to Beliveau despite playing in a far less favorable environment should be a point in Yzerman's favor, should it not? Yzerman never had a Geoffrion or a Moore alongside him, and he only had Lidstrom later in his career when he was no longer a top scorer in the NHL. Say you put similar players to prime Shanahan, Lidstrom, Fedorov, etc. on the 88-94 Wings (maybe Bourque, Neely, Kurri/Gilmour, etc.) plus comparables for the rest of he roster (such a Primeau, Murphy, etc.) and what do you think Yzerman does? It didn't happen, but people often criticize the idea of Yzerman having a great prime because he had a great team, as if the two things happened at the same time.

 

[Nalens Oga]

I didn't read through the stats you've put up there, I'm sure they're an impressive comparison. I grew up in the 90s so Yzerman is from my generation but based on everything I saw on tape, Beliveau was a far more skilled and smoother player.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

And where are the playoff scoring comparisons?

The same place they are in Yzerman vs Messier threads.

 

[pdd]

The same place they are in Yzerman vs Messier threads.

Look up a couple posts.