Your Top5 Goalies list

[God Bless Canada]

A Conn Smythe is impressive but, it is only for 2 months of play. A Hart and a Vezina is for 6 months of play.

At the very least a Smythe = Hart and a Vezina is slightly below a Smythe.

I do not think that you can determine Roy ahead of Hasek based on 3 Smythes, when Hasek has 6 Vezinas and 2 Harts to his credit.

But it's when the pressure is ratcheted up considerably. The regular season is essentially a qualification process for the playoffs. It decides when seeding is established. The playoffs are when legacies are made.

Why do you think Joe Nieuwendyk is a consensus HHOFer, even though many players have better regular season numbers? Because he got the job done when it counted.

Ask NHL players which award they would like to win the most. The answer, to a man, would be the Conn Smythe, because it means, more than likely, that his team just won the Stanley Cup.

The Hart isn't even the most significant regular season award anymore. Most players now say it's the Lester Pearson, because it's voted by peers.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

True but the Vezina back then was given to the goaltender with the best GA. So playing on a stacked team helped. IMO Glenn Halls record all star selections (7 1st team, 4 2nd team), going head to head against Sawchuk and Plante, is a better indication of who was the best goalie back then.

Hey I don't have a problem with people saying Hall or Sawchuk were better than Plante. My only point was that it's hardly a joke to call Plante the best. It's arguable who the best is, and there are five or six guys who IMO can lay a legitimate claim to the crown of best ever, including Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. My main argument against Hall is the lack of Cups. He had a team led by Hull, Mikita and Pilote, and still only managed one cup, but he is certainly a contender for the best ever.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Hey I don't have a problem with people saying Hall or Sawchuk were better than Plante. My only point was that it's hardly a joke to call Plante the best. It's arguable who the best is, and there are five or six guys who IMO can lay a legitimate claim to the crown of best ever, including Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. My main argument against Hall is the lack of Cups. He had a team led by Hull, Mikita and Pilote, and still only managed one cup, but he is certainly a contender for the best ever.

Exactly. I've always said that goalie is the position with the most debate for the best ever. Most say Hull is the best LW ever. (Although there are some, myself included, who pick Lindsay). Gretzky is the best C ever, although there is a vocal minority that argues for Lemieux. Howe-Richard are 1-2 on most RW lists. Bobby Orr is the consensus No. 1 defenceman.

But goalie's different. Find 25 qualified historians, and you'll get at least seven picks for No. 1: Plante, Hall, Roy, Sawchuk, Hasek, Dryden, and if we include international, Tretiak. Then you'll get Brodeur, Parent, T. Esposito, Durnan and Vezina in a top five or two, and several top 10s. Then you'll get a whole host of others in the top 10.

Considering it's likely the most important position on the ice, the divergent opinion on goalies, and the absence of goalies in most top NHL player lists, is surprising. I think part of the problem is the way they awarded the Vezina for so long. I think another part is there isn't anyone who really stands out.

Playoff success is very important to me. That's why I have Plante and Roy 1-2, with Sawchuk, Hall and Hasek behind them. (I place Hall ahead of Hasek largely because Hall does have a Conn Smythe on a losing team). That's why Dryden, Parent and Brodeur are indisputable in their place in the top 10.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

But it's when the pressure is ratcheted up considerably. The regular season is essentially a qualification process for the playoffs. It decides when seeding is established. The playoffs are when legacies are made.

Why do you think Joe Nieuwendyk is a consensus HHOFer, even though many players have better regular season numbers? Because he got the job done when it counted.

Ask NHL players which award they would like to win the most. The answer, to a man, would be the Conn Smythe, because it means, more than likely, that his team just won the Stanley Cup.

The Hart isn't even the most significant regular season award anymore. Most players now say it's the Lester Pearson, because it's voted by peers.

Well Hasek has two pearson awards in his resume as well so..

 

[TOPGUN]

The best goalie that ever walked this planet is Hasek!

Just look at his "stats" boys!

 

[jiggs 10]

The best goalie that ever walked this planet is Hasek!

Just look at his "stats" boys!

We have, and they aren't that great except for the Vezina's, which are nowadays overrated. Where is he on the all-time wins list? Yes, he didn't get to start until he was 28, and I agree that wasn't even closely fair, but....

The numbers just aren't there. Hasek was the Tony Esposito of his era: unorthidox, but never a real winner. Yes, he won a single Cup with the Wings, but that was more because of the greatness of that team even before he joined them. I would put Hasek at #6 on my list of greatest goalies, behind Sawchuk, Hall, Durnan, Dryden, Roy.

JMO.

 

[Slitty]

1)Tretiak
2)Sawchuk
3)Hainsworth
4)Plante
5)Hasek/Roy - depends on what Hasek does with the end bit of his career.


I really thought it was widely accepted that Tretiak was the greatest goalie ever, quite surpising to see him at #3 if at all on your lists

 

[Ogopogo*]

1)Tretiak
2)Sawchuk
3)Hainsworth
4)Plante
5)Hasek/Roy - depends on what Hasek does with the end bit of his career.


I really thought it was widely accepted that Tretiak was the greatest goalie ever, quite surpising to see him at #3 if at all on your lists

Really, you cannot call Tretiak the greatest goalie ever when he played about 20 games against NHL competition his entire career.

That would be like voting Eric Staal to the HOF already.

 

[Slitty]

Really, you cannot call Tretiak the greatest goalie ever when he played about 20 games against NHL competition his entire career.

That would be like voting Eric Staal to the HOF already.

Well that presenting our one-sided North American views a little bit. He had a long and glorious International career with 3 gold + 1 silver Olympic medals, 10 World Championship gold medals, 9 European gold medals... albiet not against NHLers: but the Czechoslvakian and Swedish National teams were worthy competition in those days. He captured 13 Soviet league titles, 5 times as MVP, the level of which in those times could argualbly be compared to the NHL.

Anyways, with the Canada Cup, the Summit Series, and Soviet club tours of North America - I believe it was more than 20 games against NHL competition, unless by 20 games you mean against NHL clubs and not national teams comprised on NHL players.


In any case, New Year's Eve, 1975 against the Montreal Canadiens had most of the world who saw it convinced of who was the greatest goalkeeper of all time despite only seeing tidbits of his greatness. Certainly was enough to win me over.

 

[TOPGUN]

We have, and they aren't that great except for the Vezina's, which are nowadays overrated. Where is he on the all-time wins list? Yes, he didn't get to start until he was 28, and I agree that wasn't even closely fair, but....

The numbers just aren't there. Hasek was the Tony Esposito of his era: unorthidox, but never a real winner. Yes, he won a single Cup with the Wings, but that was more because of the greatness of that team even before he joined them. I would put Hasek at #6 on my list of greatest goalies, behind Sawchuk, Hall, Durnan, Dryden, Roy.

JMO.

Well we can discuss on where you put him on the "list" I agree with that part! But he also won single-handed the gold medal at the Nagano Olympics, I believe he shot down the best snipers in the World in the final or am I wrong!?

It is not only the Vezina's (6) and the MVP (2), Lester B. Pearson Award (2) and the list go's on and on! He set a new standard for goaltenders, a standard that only Theodore reached 1 time in his career and nobody else!

He is a winner, if he wasen't a winner he never got those thing done is his career!

 

[Ogopogo*]

Well that presenting our one-sided North American views a little bit. He had a long and glorious International career with 3 gold + 1 silver Olympic medals, 10 World Championship gold medals, 9 European gold medals... albiet not against NHLers: but the Czechoslvakian and Swedish National teams were worthy competition in those days. He captured 13 Soviet league titles, 5 times as MVP, the level of which in those times could argualbly be compared to the NHL.

Anyways, with the Canada Cup, the Summit Series, and Soviet club tours of North America - I believe it was more than 20 games against NHL competition, unless by 20 games you mean against NHL clubs and not national teams comprised on NHL players.


In any case, New Year's Eve, 1975 against the Montreal Canadiens had most of the world who saw it convinced of who was the greatest goalkeeper of all time despite only seeing tidbits of his greatness. Certainly was enough to win me over.

What if a goalie like Jose Theodore played in the AHL?

He would dominate like nobody's business. Could we then call him the greatest goalie of all time?

For most of Tretiak's career he played on a government mandated stacked team in the Russian league and against AHL calibre players on the world stage. Does that make him the greatest?

Against NHL level competition, he played well but, let's be honest. The last 3 games of the 1972 series he gave up a bucket full of goals. 6 goals against in the most important game ever played? Hardly the sign of the greatest goalie ever.

 

[chooch*]

What if a goalie like Jose Theodore played in the AHL?

He would dominate like nobody's business. Could we then call him the greatest goalie of all time?

For most of Tretiak's career he played on a government mandated stacked team in the Russian league and against AHL calibre players on the world stage. Does that make him the greatest?

Against NHL level competition, he played well but, let's be honest. The last 3 games of the 1972 series he gave up a bucket full of goals. 6 goals against in the most important game ever played? Hardly the sign of the greatest goalie ever.

Name another goalie who was his country's top netminder for 14 years.

Your post makes it clear youre once again blindly focusing on numbers without doing research of any substance.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Name another goalie who was his country's top netminder for 14 years.

Your post makes it clear youre once again blindly focusing on numbers without doing research of any substance.

Don't you have an FLQ rally to attend?

 

[reckoning]

Imagine if in `72 it was Canada who was leading 5-3 in the third period, then Ken Dryden let in 3 goals to lose the series. If that happened he`d be villified in this country to this day.

Imagine if in `80, a team of Canada`s best NHL players lost to a American team of college players primarily because of bad goaltending. That goalie would be stigmatized as a choke artist for the rest of his career regardless of what else he accomplished.

Tretiak does those two things, but people think he`s the best ever because of an exhibition game. Being Russia`s best goalie doesn`t make him the world`s best goalie. In fact it`s debatable if he was even Europe`s best goalie at the time as Jiri Holocek won best goalie at the World Championships more times than Tretiak.

 

[VanIslander]

I really thought it was widely accepted that Tretiak was the greatest goalie ever, quite surpising to see him at #3 if at all on your lists

It's widely accepted that Tretiak is the most overhyped goalie ever.

It's arguable whether he's Top-3 or Top-15.

A lot of people, even in his home country, think he isn't even the greatest Russian goaltender ever.

He's Top 10 in my books, but barely.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

Name another goalie who was his country's top netminder for 14 years.

Your post makes it clear youre once again blindly focusing on numbers without doing research of any substance.

Hasek.

Hes been CZE's best goalie for a long time now.

 

[arrbez]

Name another goalie who was his country's top netminder for 14 years.

Your post makes it clear youre once again blindly focusing on numbers without doing research of any substance.

not to be a stickler, but Russia doesn't exactly have an illustrious reputation for producing goaltenders...

replace Tretiak with Grant Fuhr, and he's probably the best Russian goalie ever...but it doesn't mean he's a top 5 (or even 10) goaltender all-time

 

[chooch*]

Don't you have an FLQ rally to attend?

Oh yeah, I forgot Tretiak was born in Shawinigan.

Ask Team Canada 72. Ask the Forum fans when they gave him one standing ovation after another in 81. What do they know.

 

[mcphee]

In the early 60's, games began at 8.00 and the HNIC feed came on at 8.30. If Mtl. was playing Chicago,you hoped that the CH had scored because if you didn't get to him early, chances are that you wouldn't at all. He was the one goalie, I remember from that era that made you think he would win on his own. Plante and Sawchuck were past their prime, Hall was easily the guy, in the early to mid 60's. Hall was the sexy pick, but if I had to win one game, I'd take Bower. The same with Hasek, I won't dispute the great saves, the carrying of an average team, but for one game, I'd trust someone else, Patrick or Brodeur. Tretiak may have been near the top of the list but I would never include him. He played some great games, but truthfully, I don't know how you rate someone on tournament play only. Watch him play all year, home and home, 2 game in 2 night road games. We just don't have the frame of reference. If there was a way of qualifying the best ever, Tretiak may be up there, I just don't know that we can rate int'l. goalies accurately. This isn't NA biase [though I surely have some], I just don't know how I can sit here and post that Tretiak was better than Dryden. I really have no idea. Of course,all of this, or most, is preference anyways.

 

[Slitty]

We just don't have the frame of reference. If there was a way of qualifying the best ever, Tretiak may be up there, I just don't know that we can rate int'l. goalies accurately. This isn't NA biase [though I surely have some], I just don't know how I can sit here and post that Tretiak was better than Dryden. I really have no idea. Of course,all of this, or most, is preference anyways.

I believe if you really wanted to, you could track down video of a considerable number of his games, it exists *somewhere*.

The games against Montreal in 1975 is what was the icing on the cake of his his Olympics play (I think he was pulled during that game, and wasnt in net for the Miracle on ice BTW), various other international competitions (if Dryden [or any other goalie] was in net against the 1972 team Canada and let in 3 goals in the 3rd period, I think people would understand ), and what little bits Ive seen of friendlies and Soviet league competition and propelled him to #1 in my books. Its not widely regarded as the finest goaltending performance in the history of the sport for no reason.


Anyways, VERY well said mcphee

 

[pnep]

even in his home country, think he isn't even the greatest Russian goaltender ever.

what you talking about??????????

 

[pnep]

Tretiak Named best Russian hockey player of the 20th century by the IIHF and Russian hockey federation in 2000.

 

[nik jr]

i'm amazed how many people think roy was better than hasek. but it does look like many of those are habs fans.

to me it's obvious hasek was better. roy was never on a bad team. hasek only started always for bad/mediocre ones (back-up in chicago). once hasek was on a good team like roy's--detroit, they win the cup, president's trophy, hasek beats roy in the western finals (where roy costs colorado the series) and hasek sets record for playoff shutouts. (and was a smythe contender). now he's on another good team, ottawa, and they've got the lowest GA in the league.

hasek took buffalo to the finals; roy hasn't done anything like that. he also stopped 1 of the greatest teams ever--canada 98, to take gold. roy's smythe's don't matter much to me at all, b/c you'd have to be on a good team (or play like giguere did) to get 1.

i don't think brodeur is close to top 5. always played behind great D. now he doesn't and looks much worse.

 

[Mike Bossy*]

Terry Sawchuk
Dominik Hasek
Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Viacheslav Tretiak

 

[19nazzy]

to me it's obvious hasek was better. roy was never on a bad team.

Never on a bad team? Look at some of the Hab teams he was on.

hasek took buffalo to the finals; roy hasn't done anything like that.

I think I vaguely remember Roy winning 4 Stanley Cups and 3 Conn Smythes...can someone help me out here?