Player development just isn't that easy to project. Ok Kucherov and Karlsson immediately showed great promise after they were picked, as did Saad and Granlund after 2 years. But Jurco, XO and Sproul had better junior careers than the others. When they were tearing up juniors winning all kind of awards, it would have been hard to project Jurco, XO and Sproul all amounting to so little. At 19 & 20 they were better than most of their peers. Sadly Jurco had his head broken by Babs & Blash and has never found confidence since, XO just never got any better at skating, and Sproul seemed incapable of developing any defensive awareness, which really should have been coachable. That said, I think all were also caught up in some awful asset management by the wings. All 3 would get much longer looks and better chances of development on this team now.
Your least favorite Red Wings draft picks
- Thread starter MBH
- Start date
Player development just isn't that easy to project. Ok Kucherov and Karlsson immediately showed great promise after they were picked, as did Saad and Granlund after 2 years. But Jurco, XO and Sproul had better junior careers than the others. When they were tearing up juniors winning all kind of awards, it would have been hard to project Jurco, XO and Sproul all amounting to so little. At 19 & 20 they were better than most of their peers. Sadly Jurco had his head broken by Babs & Blash and has never found confidence since, XO just never got any better at skating, and Sproul seemed incapable of developing any defensive awareness, which really should have been coachable. That said, I think all were also caught up in some awful asset management by the wings. All 3 would get much longer looks and better chances of development on this team now.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
I don't even mean to complain about scouts or management or coaching. The draft is nearly a pure crap shoot the vast majority of the time. Just sucks to have 3 roles in a good round and come up with nothing. Like c'mon... juss gimme one pwease.
Respectfully, I don't buy these excuses for these players for one minute. Jurco/XO/Sproul were not victims of the Red Wings, they were poor athletes by NHL standards. I don't think Jurco suddenly becomes a Hudler if we swap Babs for bottom-wiper O'Keefe, or the Dmen suddenly become Nemeths under different asset management. It's like Uncle Rico saying "if only coach had put me in the fourth quarter we woulda won states, I woulda gone to college, made the NFL, and make a boat load of money. I can throw pig skin a quarter mile" Sure you can creepy van uncle.
At the end of the day, the Wings trained plenty of other good players during that time frame. Jurco, XO, and Sproul just weren't good enough. That much is evidenced by their poor continued careers elsewhere. If anything I blame our scouts for not being better, but that's such a chance game, as I mentioned, that I really just blame the hockey gods. They giveth... but also taketh
Killerjas
Registered User
I have only been following prospects massively since 2017, so let me share my thoughts:
2017: Did not like Rasmussen, had Vilardi & Necas before Rasmussen on my rankings as I thought Rasmussen was a safer pick but with a low ceiling. A 3rd line player while Vilardi & Necas have a high erpotential. Also thought Lindstrom was too highly drafted but sources say a lot of teams had him going in the late 2nd round, which means we wasn't really drafted too high in hindsight.
Almost HATED all the picks after the 2nd round, some of my thoughts:
2019: Detroit going the European route. Was shocked with Seider, I had them going for Zegras but I am fine with Seider. He is extremely raw but he has the chance of being a great 1st line D. Thought Tuomisto was drafted a bit early. LOVED the Mastrosimone and Johansson pick, but I also liked Norlinder who went 4 spots later. Grewe was an okay pick, very raw though. Moore & Phillips were players I knew nothing about.
Soderblom & Berglund: Soderblom is HUGE but is doing suprisingly well. Thought nothing about Berglund but the fact that he got some games in the SHL is promosing. Was a big believer of trading down and picking up more picks.
Tyutyayev & Gylander: Never heard of them but after seeing some games, I like these picks. Gylander did extremely well this season and I believe he will do well in the NCAA next season. Not sure about Tyutyayev going to the Belarussian league, rather had him fight it out in the VHL & KHL.
For this draft I have 2 tips: Get skilled players, and DRAFT DOWN if there is potential of getting some extra 2nd to 3rd round picks. Those rounds are filled with great players
2017: Did not like Rasmussen, had Vilardi & Necas before Rasmussen on my rankings as I thought Rasmussen was a safer pick but with a low ceiling. A 3rd line player while Vilardi & Necas have a high erpotential. Also thought Lindstrom was too highly drafted but sources say a lot of teams had him going in the late 2nd round, which means we wasn't really drafted too high in hindsight.
Almost HATED all the picks after the 2nd round, some of my thoughts:
- Kotkansalo (poor stats in his draft year, not offensively minded, nothing special player)
- Zablocki (decent stats but basically a one season wonder for Red Deer. Now plays University hockey)
- Gallant (okay, sort of liked him. Still has the chance to make it to the NHL)
- Petruzzelli (still like him, dropped a bit in the rankings right into our picks. Has potential to make it to the NHL)
- Setkov (he is just big)
- Fraser (he is just big, thought there was no way he would be anything good)
2019: Detroit going the European route. Was shocked with Seider, I had them going for Zegras but I am fine with Seider. He is extremely raw but he has the chance of being a great 1st line D. Thought Tuomisto was drafted a bit early. LOVED the Mastrosimone and Johansson pick, but I also liked Norlinder who went 4 spots later. Grewe was an okay pick, very raw though. Moore & Phillips were players I knew nothing about.
Soderblom & Berglund: Soderblom is HUGE but is doing suprisingly well. Thought nothing about Berglund but the fact that he got some games in the SHL is promosing. Was a big believer of trading down and picking up more picks.
Tyutyayev & Gylander: Never heard of them but after seeing some games, I like these picks. Gylander did extremely well this season and I believe he will do well in the NCAA next season. Not sure about Tyutyayev going to the Belarussian league, rather had him fight it out in the VHL & KHL.
For this draft I have 2 tips: Get skilled players, and DRAFT DOWN if there is potential of getting some extra 2nd to 3rd round picks. Those rounds are filled with great players
ricky0034
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2010
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- 7,252
did they?
certainly not Defensemen,calling that a barren wasteland till Hronek would be if anything too generous,the Wings literally went a decade and a half where the best Defenseman they managed to draft and develop was Jonathan Ericsson
Mlotek
Registered User
Do you know if Tyutyayev signed with that Belarussian team or was he acquired in another way?
The Yekaterinburg had him listed on contract to Gornyak (their VHL affiliate) for 20-21 season just a couple weeks ago.
That Belarussian team is the feeder club of Dynamo Minsk.
Killerjas
Registered User
I just did a quick Google Translate on the news (
Задрафтованный НХЛ российский форвард Кирилл.. | ХК "Юность-Минск" | Официальная страница | VK). Not sure if it translated it correctly but it seems Detroit had a say in the transfer. 3 players (Tyutyayev, Rasseikin and Mingaleyev) left Uchaly and went to Minsk. Mingaleyev was the captain of Uchaly.Heard some rumours that there were some internal struggles in the group and that the players did not believe Uchaly was the best place to develop in.
If not, I don't have a doubt in my mind that Detroit talked with Kirill about the situation and helped in the relocation.
Oh, I'm not blaming the wings for their lack of 'making it'. I'm just observing that for many players its a case of getting a good shot at the right time. Of course when the Wings were still a playoff team, you're not going to throw Sproul out there and hope his game translates better when he's got less time to think (as it occasionally does for non cerebral players). I'm just saying that all 3 would have got more opportunities to find their feet if they were at the team now, and either way we should have traded them earlier and got something substantive back when it became clear that their flaws were not being overcome, rather than waiting until all 3 had little value. Player evaluation should be able to see if a guy isn't progressing more quickly than the wings did over the last decade, and as a throw, it should include giving them favourable shots at the NHL to at least give them value on the trade block.
XO just couldn't skate well enough for a guy of his skillset and size. He'd probably be a regular 6 on a bad team. That's no-one's fault. Sproul had the defensive IQ of a bush, and it didn't develop, but I do think we missed a trick in not giving that bomb from the point some favourable air time to keep his CHL award winning value relevant. Some GMs would be happy to twist for a guy with a booming point shot and good size who can skate pretty well, even if his brains are in his rear.
Jurco is the only guy I think we slightly messed up, although injuries played a part. He was showing real promise in one role, and was still too good for the AHL in that role, and after initial relative succes he was given a different role at the NHL level that he was less suited towards. We all know babs and to a degree Blash are X and O and system guys, but at times their lack of flexibility in utilising the tools at their disposal has been disappointing and has damaged assets.
I think all three top out as borderline players, but I'm thinking more of asset management. Award winning CHL guys who are 2nd round picks should really garner more in return.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
Developed by the Wings under Babs/Holland
1. Franzen
2. Filppula
3. Hudler
4. Howard
5. Kronwall (to some extent)
6. Zetterberg (to some extent)
7. Ericsson
8. Abdelkader
9. Helm
10. Nyquist
11. Tatar
12. Jensen (fixed)
13. Smith
14. Mrazek
15. Jarnrkok
16. Sheahan
Developed by the Wings under Blash/Holland
1. Larkin
2. Athanasiou
3. Mantha
4. Bertuzzi
5. Ehn
6. Hronek
7. Jensen
Sure there's very few Dmen in there. But my point was that I blame that fact on poor scouting and bad draft luck, not a toxic Babcock or poor asset management by the Wings. I sincerely doubt Marchenko, XO, Sproul, or Kindl suddenly become viable assets if only they had been reared in the Sharks coaching/system for example. And I list the NHLers developed by us as an example of players who rose above this supposed poor management and coaching. If our systems ruined Jurco forever, why didn't they ruin Franzen forever? Or Fil? Or Hudler? Or Zberg? Or Tatar? I digress... The difference between those players and Jurco is that Jurco simply sucks at the NHL level and the others don't.
Sure, these players might have gotten an NHL opportunity a bit sooner on this roster, I just doubt that impacts their end-development in any real substantial way. I do agree we should have cut and run from these players sooner though. I fear we're going to make this same mistake with Cholowski...
I just will never understand this bending over backward to excuse Jurco. You could use these same excuses for XO or Pulkkinnen or a number of other players but no one ever does... I get the frustration that Babcock made him ride pine or play a bottom 6 roll when everyone would have liked to see him in a bigger role, but that's all that is; fan frustration. Jurco needed to earn that roll and never did. Meanwhile, Babs helped develop a number of great forwards not named Jurco.
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Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
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Nick Jensen played 100% of his NHL career in Detroit for Blashill. Blashill also coached him in GR for 2 years.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
I guess the thing is that Jurco had a brief period of being an effective 3rd liner, and also got to the level of being too good for the Griffins (more than PPG), but as soon as his play dropped off, he found himself dumping and chasing with Drew Miller - hardly the recipe for success for a middle six skilled possession winger.
Personally I think his injury was more impactful than coaching, and one can speculate about mentality, but I don't think anyone can dispute that there are other coaches or other rosters that would have given him more room to replicate that early promise. This conclusion is partly supported by how assertive he was at AHL level and his early NHL games, and how tentative and frankly lost looking he became.
Do I think that Babs/Holland should have changed the team approach to benefit the liked of Jurco? No, because at that point the Wings were still relevant. But I do think that if there wasn't a spot for a player of his skillset on the team in a role that suits him, both coach and GM should recognise that and get what good value they can. And that applies to any player in a comparable situation. What happened is that Holland didn;t want to give up on that early promise despite his head coach not utilising the player in a role that suit his skillset. Even if Jurco just wasn't good enough, from an asset management standpoint and a coaching standpoint, he was mis-used.
The difference I see with Cholowski is that he looks like he needs a confidence boost more than anything. The guy we first saw had flaws but showed us something we hadn't seen on the back end for a while. The problem is, he needs to be paired with a guy who he can lean on defensively, and Hronek apart, the right side of the wings defence has been a horror show in its own zone for some time now. For a number of reasons, I can see sense in the organisation picking up a 1 or 2 year right sided Nemeth type, and I think that would do Cholowski the world of good. He needs to be with someone defensively solid who puts the onus on Cholowski to be offensively proactive. Its a lot easier for players to improve their weaknesses if they can lean on their strengths, and for Cholowski being paired with end career Trevor Daley or Madison Bowey is like Kryptonite.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
Jurco is cut from the same mold as Pulks. Much too good for the AHL. Not effective enough for the NHL. He's been in multiple other organizations now. In each one he's proven this time and time again. Lighting up the AHL and failing to do anything impactful in the NHL. The problem I have is when people say the Red Wings ruined him. Nah, he still knows how to hockey, he led the Checkers to the Calder cup just last year... he's just not good enough to hold down an NHL roster spot.
That implies that one regards Jurco as a useful NHL asset. I don't. You can't really misuse a player that has no place in the NHL to begin with. Maybe Babs could have thrown him on the top line and we could have inflated his stats for a bit... but that's still just masking a very flawed player. And I do not believe a top line confidence boost would've fundamentally altered his skills as a player to make him good enough for the NHL either.
I don't doubt that if you paired Cholowski with Jiri Fischer, Fischer would make him look better, but generally I hate this excuse. Much like with Jurco. If player X is only feasible when paired with much better player Y, one needs to seriously rethink their commitment to player X. Every NHL player needs to be able to carry their own water regardless of their linemate. I'm not asking for hatties here, just that each guy can play their role without fundamental break downs in play.
That aside, I also hate this excuse, but in this instance I think it holds true. Cholowski is being rushed into the NHL much too quickly. When Holland threw Hronek into the pool and Hronek managed to keep his head above water and then some, I think Holland gained the confidence to try the same with Cholo. It didn't work the same with Cholo. And it was dreadfully painful to watch Yzerman follow Holland's precedent this year and commit the same mistake. IMO Cholo is glaringly not ready for the NHL. KEEP HIM AWAY STEPHEN. Cholowski reminds me so much of Brendan Smith. The panicky bone-headed mistakes are far too many. He needs to be sheltered in the AHL for a while I think if we're going to have eventual success with him. Otherwisre trade him for something useful.
I guess we'll agree to differ. I just think that with young players, either you put them in a position to play a role and style they are suited to and have some experience of, or you keep them down, or you trade them. With Jurco we did none of the above, both hurting his return from injury and wasting the trade value he previously had.
With Cholo, I don't player quality, I mean player style. If you're expecting the defensively suspect smooth skating good first past kid to play play with Trevor Daley wandering here there and everywhere, you aren't putting him in a position to succeed. There's a reason we brought in Nemeth. All our defensively focused D were rubbish or broken, and unless you have top line talent, you need complementary role combinations.
That said, Cholowski was rushed. He sarted well, but was kept in the firing line too long. His need for development, which we can all see, has been undermined by this rosters desperation to find a left sided D who can provide any offence
MBH
Players Play
I really don't get what we've done with Ras or Cholo.
There was no hurry.
And yet we acted like we were in a rush.
Cholo had a nice camp that first year, but he was months into terrible play before he was demoted.
And then we started him this year despite only a so-so- camp
Rasmussen wasn't good enough for the NHL. Not even close. And yet we forced his hand all year.
And before anyone talks about the Canadian junior rules - it didn't hurt Drai to go back to the WHL. It didn't hurt Cody Glass to spent D+2 in the WHL.
If we get Byfield, I hope we're smarter.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
Quality or style, I will posit the same argument. If Cholo is useless out there without a Nemeth to cover for him then he doesn't belong in the NHL. Many of our Dmen had to endure playing with Daley or Bowey and didn't look to be completely underwater like Cholo was.
IDK if you watch the Griffins or not, but I have not been fond of Cholo during his time in GR either. The kid does not operate under pressure at all well. He's extremely prone to panic. I think he's got Smith-syndrome written all over him.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
I agree about why are these two being rushed. It makes little sense to me. However in the case of Ras, I didn't mind him on the Wings. Probably not the best role for him to jump into, but I didn't think he was awful or drowning that year. Certainly his frame and weight probably helped him keep up. Cholo however has no business sniffing an NHL blueline at the moment or in the recent past. Bizarre that it took so long to demote him.
MBH
Players Play
I've rarely seen a first round pick NHL rookie look as fish-out-of-water and continue to play every game as Rasmussen.
Based solely on Rasmussen's stats (7-15-22 in 35 games) it seems pretty clear he's going back to the AHL.
The surprising thing is 7 goals. I don't know how he was employed in the AHL, but this kid scored 2 goals in 3 games the previous year on an injury stint.
Gniwder
Registered User
They both played in the season opener against the Blue Jackets on Oct 4, 2018 (first NHL game for both).
I agree Cholo isn't ready, he thinks too slow for the NHL, by the time he decides what to do, it's too late. He also needs to learn to take the body.
ChrisReevesLegs
Registered User
Maybe I don't recall correctly, but that wasn't the impression I came away with. I didn't even think he was the worst forward on the team that year. 18 points in 62 games with 12 minutes of ice time a night ain't too shabby for a 19 year old rookie either.
This year he was really good through the first half of the Griffs season, but he slowed way down in January. Not sure the reason.
I didn't know enough about rosi then, really thought we should have taken voynov.
cjm502
Bingo Bango!
The Bert pick had me heated, I thought he was only a subpar junior player who had no chance in the NHL. Im very glad I was wrong.
I suspect it was the injury issues he had and then the injuries and call-ups totally destroying all chemistry on the Griffs roster. The whole team hit the buffers for a while
PullHard
☂
- Jul 18, 2007
- 28,403
- 2,482
Was upset by the Larkin, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, and Zadina picks at the time
I remember wanting to go for a more "swing for the fences" type prospect instead of Larkin - Namely Milano or Tuch. Larkin has more than won me over, and the pick seems like it was excellent at this point in time. I still do like Tuch a lot, but he's no Larkin so far.
Bertuzzi seemed like a reach at the time and now he is probably tied with Larkin for my fav current Wings player.
Rasmussen seemed like the classic "tools" prospect - oversized C who ends up being a staple in the bottom 6 but never really warrants top 10 draft pick status. I've warmed up a bit to this selection but wanted Necas or Vilardi. So far it looks like Necas is ahead and Vilardi had a nice start to his career (playing with Martin Frk?!) but I have hope Rasmussen keeps making strides.
Zadina is an excellent prospect and will be a great player, I just wanted a defender. Dobson, Hughes, Boqvist, etc. were all on the board. I suspected Dobson. Hard to gauge this one so far but there is nothing wrong with the pick.
I remember wanting to go for a more "swing for the fences" type prospect instead of Larkin - Namely Milano or Tuch. Larkin has more than won me over, and the pick seems like it was excellent at this point in time. I still do like Tuch a lot, but he's no Larkin so far.
Bertuzzi seemed like a reach at the time and now he is probably tied with Larkin for my fav current Wings player.
Rasmussen seemed like the classic "tools" prospect - oversized C who ends up being a staple in the bottom 6 but never really warrants top 10 draft pick status. I've warmed up a bit to this selection but wanted Necas or Vilardi. So far it looks like Necas is ahead and Vilardi had a nice start to his career (playing with Martin Frk?!) but I have hope Rasmussen keeps making strides.
Zadina is an excellent prospect and will be a great player, I just wanted a defender. Dobson, Hughes, Boqvist, etc. were all on the board. I suspected Dobson. Hard to gauge this one so far but there is nothing wrong with the pick.
JohanFranzenstein
Registered User
- Dec 6, 2013
- 2,202
- 2,227
I was bummed we took Tuomisto over Sogaard in 2019, but in hindsight Tuomisto looks like a monster.
Yeah, agreed, both were rushed to the NHL for no reason. I remember the arguments for Ras staying in the NHL in 2018-2019 because he was "too good for junior hockey". While he did dominate in the playoffs in his D+1 season, his regular season numbers (59 pts in 47 GP) do not scream "this guy is too good for junior." There was literally nothing gained from having him struggle at the NHL level as a 19 year old because "he's too good for junior". If you look around the NHL, even the high end picks have struggled recently, like J. Hughes and Kakko. It even took A. Svechnikov a full season to figure things out. I can't even remember the last time a forward had a ton of NHL success in his D+1 season. Hischier had a respectable 52 PTS, the last NHL forward to step right into the NHL and have immediate star success must have been Matthews.
The whole thing with Ras though is that on draft day, many people (myself included) were worried about upside, and didn't believe there was a top 6 NHL player in him. The jury is still out on him, but I'm not betting on Ras being a 2nd line center at the NHL level. I think he will be a useful 3C, who will contribute with some PP production, and could see a couple seasons of 50 pts, but Ras to me is a 35 point 3C. There is nothing wrong with that, as he could even become a high end 3C due to his size and strength, and hands around the net, but I think at 9th overall you are expecting more than a 3rd liner.
As for Cholo, the guy is one of the most polarizing players I've seen. You watch him skate with the puck, make a couple moves and get by the defender, then set someone up with a brilliant pass. Then the next shift you watch him turn the puck over 3 times in a row. I find it hard to believe that Cholo is an NHL player. His uncertainties with the puck won't allow his career to flourish.
