You Never Give Me Your Money.. (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XII

[CerebralGenesis]

The PA is hilarious. They don't even know what they are proposing and then complain to the media lol

 

[WayneSid9987]

This will go no where until there is a change in philosophy from one side or they figure out an agreeable solution to the economics which people are really struggling to find right now, given each others philosophy.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

Twitter fights between the players and owners would be legendary.

 

[mikeda1940]

Except that is not at all 50/50 in revenues over the term of the deal if (as i've heard) it would cost $500 million or so, at least, to cover the difference off the old contracts... which means it's not lower than 53/47 for the players over this cba, and potentially more in favour of the players if revenues should halt or fall.

In my limited exposure to the proposal, the way I saw Proposal 3 was almost as a mirror of the "make whole" proposal. Under "make whole", its the players that cover the difference off of 50/50 where existing contracts are concerned. In Proposal 3, its the owners who cover the difference.

Maybe there can be a deal if they split that difference?

 

[GoSensGo6172]

Who is Richard Labee and how credible is he?

That would be fairly positive if Fehr is pushing the players for a deal here.

 

[the_fan]

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't the NHL offered 50/50 with the current contracts honored two days ago?

Fehr said today the PA is fine with the 50/50 as long as the current contracts are honored.

I don't get this

 

[CK17]

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't the NHL offered 50/50 with the current contracts honored two days ago?

Fehr said today the PA is fine with the 50/50 as long as the current contracts are honored.

I don't get this

It's the method of honoring the contracts they're arguing about now.

 

[gstommylee]

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't the NHL offered 50/50 with the current contracts honored two days ago?

Fehr said today the PA is fine with the 50/50 as long as the current contracts are honored.

I don't get this

PA used their own previous offer as the template which won't work math wise.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

To die-hards, it's suicide. To casual fans who dont spend their nights cramming CBA numbers? It might actually work......

Touche. HF is definitely the minority of NHL fans. Darche certainly thinks the fans love them.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't the NHL offered 50/50 with the current contracts honored two days ago?

Fehr said today the PA is fine with the 50/50 as long as the current contracts are honored.

I don't get this

The NHL offer had players not making full value of their contracts for a little while but had a mechanism that had the rest of the money going back to the players at a later date.

The PA wants full value now.

 

[Greschner4]

It's pretty clear that Fehr and the PA are not going to take less than the existing $1.8B in aggregate player salaries in any year of any CBA they sign. (And I don't blame them.) If no creative way is found to incorporate that principle into the agreement, which entails the owners accepting a transition period without linkage in exchange for a few years of linkage at a lower number in the out years in which it's next to certain that the players' share will be $1.8B or more, then we're not going to have hockey this year.

That's the compromise -- roughly three years of delinkage, roughly three years of linkage. If the league doesn't accept that structure, we're not playing hockey. It's in the league's hands.

 

[mouser]

I wonder how all the players would feel about that? I was thinking of the players who are coming up to UFA status this year - like Getzlaf and Perry...the new deal would put downward pressure on whatever contract they could get (relative to the $ handed out this year) - while they were standing there looking at people like Parise and Suter having gotten paid big time. That might just be life in the big city - but I'd think there are going to be other players like them who will see it as a haves/have nots situation.

Yeah, it's not in the NHLPA's best interests to have members that otherwise would be equal treated so differently. That's part of the problem with trying to fully "protect" the current contracts. It either requires delinkage or creating two classes of union members--those with grandfathered deals and those without. Even if the PA were to get a deal with grandfathered delinkage it could still depress future UFA deals while the grandfathered guy contracts wind down.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

The NHL offer had players not making full value of their contracts for a little while but had a mechanism that had the rest of the money going back to the players at a later date.

The PA wants full value now.

It blows my mind that a deal isn't done around the bolded.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

At least the owners to an extent have shown a willingness to move. We're still waiting on the PA to show the same.

.

Willingness to move?
Haha.

Only players who are idiots would believe this.

This is like when you're in college and the province announces it's considering raising tuition by 15 percent.
Then when they raise it by 9 percent, everyone is happy.

It only works on fools.

 

[gstommylee]

Yeah, it's not in the NHLPA's best interests to have members that otherwise would be equal treated so differently. That's part of the problem with trying to fully "protect" the current contracts. It either requires delinkage or creating two classes of union members--those with grandfathered deals and those without. Even if the PA were to get a deal with grandfathered delinkage it could still depress future UFA deals while the grandfathered guy contracts wind down.

Wouldn't that cause problems within their own union where players are treated differently?

 

[Phil Parent]

Richard Labbé writes for La Presse. What he says isn't too far-fetched, I'd say it's plausible that Fehr said that. Getting ZERO money on contracts you are trying to get the whole of is probably not his idea of success.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Wouldn't that cause problems within their own union where players are treated differently?

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

 

[gstommylee]

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

hence why i dislike unions

 

[wilty00]

You're still misunderstanding. On it's face the deal looks fair but there are problems.

The owners want 50/50 immediately and with the "make whole" portion, players pay for players to make themselves whole. In full, it's less than 50/50.

In the player's version of 50/50, the effect is gradual, conditional, and player's initially earn greater than 50/50 early on.

It's about how 50/50 is defined. The NHL proposal had a lot of issues in it. I never said that the players are right, but to think that their offer wasn't a step forward is misinformed.

The fact that the NHL wasn't planning on listening to how the NHLPA defined 50/50 favorably for them (instead of how it was favorable for the owners) and wanted the NHLPA to tweak their offer, shows that the owners want this deal on their terms. There needs to be a middle ground. And I do see one (the two sides are not as far off as one thinks), just need to remove the smoke and mirrors.

I read somewhere (probably on here, sadly) that the NHL was ready to sit down and talk about the make whole provision. It wasn't a take it or leave it proposition.

 

[pucka lucka]

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

Most unions don't have top dogs. They typically represent a very narrow band. Pro-sports unions are nothing like any other union.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

Any updates on how Fehr's conference call went??

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

Unions have, up until the last several years, have been about universality. About equal pay for equal work, etc.
But they've been getting beat so hard by the Anschutzs and Sniders of the world that they've begun to agree to two tiered contracts that screw over new employees and protect older employees... which will be the end of the union movement

 

[Hawkscap]

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

I wonder if Toews realizes he might have to take a paycut under Proposal 3 when his contract is up.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

I imagine a lot of players without contracts would be able to respect the fact that the players with contracts wanted them to be respected.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Owners should include non guaranteed contracts in their next proposal with a 43/57 split in the owners favor.

Players are never going to win. NEVER. They dont have the resources to to toe to toe with the owners. Donald Fehr and his massive ego where he needs to beat billionaires is going to cost some player's their careers and most of them millions of dollars.

The owners 50/50 offer is the best the players are going to get. Ask for some minor tweaks, but the owners are never going to accept any revenue split in the NHLPA's favor.

I dont care if you make 1.1 million instead of 1.5 million. I watch the NHL because it's the greatest sport in the world. Accept the owners offer and move on.