You Never Give Me Your Money.. (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XII

[Some Other Flame]

Unions rarely care about all members: it's job is to protect the top dogs and that comes at the expense of everybody else.

Ah yes, those terrible unions only care about enriching the union president and doing evil where ever they can. Why without them and their evil ways we could all return to utopia that was the late 19th century and work 16 hour days for a dollar. Truly, those were better times.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

More quotes by players:

John Bartlett ‏@BartsBytes
Josh Gorges "It was evident they didn't want to negotiate" "It was more just smoke and mirrors to sway fans to go against the players"

Hey Josh...YOUR association refused to negotiate until late June...

John Bartlett ‏@BartsBytes
Gorges "If it was so important to play 82 games, why have the lockout in the first place? Just play the 82 games."

Wow, still trying the ''let's play without a CBA!!'' angle.

John Bartlett ‏@BartsBytes
Max Talbot "They offer a 50/50, then we come back with a real 50/50 today, they take 10 minutes and reject it. Disappointing"

 

[Bills09]

I wonder if Toews realizes he might have to take a paycut under Proposal 3 when his contract is up.

even under a 50/50 split as a UFA on the open market I highly doubt Johnathan Toews has to take a pay cut.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Owners should include non guaranteed contracts in their next proposal with a 43/57 split in the owners favor.

Players are never going to win. NEVER. They dont have the resources to to toe to toe with the owners. Donald Fehr and his massive ego where he needs to beat billionaires is going to cost some player's their careers and most of them millions of dollars.

The owners 50/50 offer is the best the players are going to get. Ask for some minor tweaks, but the owners are never going to accept any revenue split in the NHLPA's favor.

Players won in 95. If the owners splintered before, they can do it again too.

 

[Whydidijoin*]

Willingness to move?
Haha.

Only players who are idiots would believe this.

This is like when you're in college and the province announces it's considering raising tuition by 15 percent.
Then when they raise it by 9 percent, everyone is happy.

It only works on fools.

No, it's like when you're an employee at $20 an hour, and every year, you keep getting raises until you're making $35 an hour, and then the company is going through economic instability so they stop giving raises for a year or two, so you sue them. Even though if you win, a bunch of your friends and co-workers may lose their jobs.

 

[Tripod]

I just can't understand how the PA could make a proposal without working the numbers to be certain what they were actually offering. That is absolutely unbelievable to me. How does that happen?

It happens when you KNOW that it is a prosopal that is only good for the players. I bet they run the numbers on ones that make the players worse off.

 

[kfan22]

Any updates on how Fehr's conference call went??

I have only seen 1 tweet saying there was a call tonight and from a guy I have never heard of??

 

[pucka lucka]

Ah yes, those terrible unions only care about enriching the union president and doing evil where ever they can. Why without them and their evil ways we could all return to utopia that was the late 19th century and work 16 hour days for a dollar. Truly, those were better times.

Ahh yes, it's either one or the other. The old false dichotomy fallacy.

 

[TheOriginalSilf*]

Today I unfollowed every non-Senators player currently in the NHL excluding actual classy players (see: Lundqvist).

 

[Tripod]

It's pretty clear that Fehr and the PA are not going to take less than the existing $1.8B in aggregate player salaries in any year of any CBA they sign. (And I don't blame them.) If no creative way is found to incorporate that principle into the agreement, which entails the owners accepting a transition period without linkage in exchange for a few years of linkage at a lower number in the out years in which it's next to certain that the players' share will be $1.8B or more, then we're not going to have hockey this year.

That's the compromise -- roughly three years of delinkage, roughly three years of linkage. If the league doesn't accept that structure, we're not playing hockey. It's in the league's hands.

So let's just say Revenue tanks...to an extreme...and revenue is $2 billion....the players should get 90%????

 

[RedWingsNow*]

No, it's like when you're an employee at $20 an hour, and every year, you keep getting raises until you're making $35 an hour, and then the company is going through economic instability so they stop giving raises for a year or two, so you sue them. Even though if you win, a bunch of your friends and co-workers may lose their jobs.

Correcting your analogy.

Overall, my employer is making money. But some of his departments are losing money.
But overall, my employer makes money.

No need for me to give and give. There's a need for you to fix your departments.

 

[haseoke39]

Everything I'm reading is suggesting that the PA proposal delinked salary from HRR and set a dollar figure cap that would (if you accept really optimistic growth projections for the league) eventually go from 57% of projected revenue to 51%.

The problem is that if revenue growth slows down at all, or, god forbid, goes backwards (not hard to imagine after this lockout), you could easily end up with 60% as well.

Raally hard to imagine how dumb the players think we are, spinning this as being a 50-50 deal.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Ah yes, those terrible unions only care about enriching the union president and doing evil where ever they can. Why without them and their evil ways we could all return to utopia that was the late 19th century and work 16 hour days for a dollar. Truly, those were better times.

I never said anything about unions being a detriment to society... It's a simple fact of life that unions today cannot take care of all members since they don't have the same interests: inevitably the union will gravitate towards the more powerful members and give them more weight than other members.
Same thing is true for the owners, new owners don't carry as much weight as the old guard.
Try to keep your cool son.

 

[wilty00]

Today I unfollowed every non-Senators player currently in the NHL excluding actual classy players (see: Lundqvist).

Zach Bogosian, as much as I loved him before this whole fiasco, is now my favorite Jet simply because of how he's handled himself on twitter.

I've seen people tweet him about the lockout and he chooses to simply ignore it. Alot of people aren't going to notice that kind of thing, but I sure as hell do and I appreciate it as a fan.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Correcting your analogy.

Overall, my employer is making money. But some of his departments are losing money.
But overall, my employer makes money.

No need for me to give and give. There's a need for you to fix your departments.

Too bad the NHL loves to promote failure so what you are proposing will never happen. Players have to pay and that's just the way it has to be since the players have zero leverage.

 

[mouser]

You're still misunderstanding. On it's face the deal looks fair but there are problems.

The owners want 50/50 immediately and with the "make whole" portion, players pay for players to make themselves whole. In full, it's less than 50/50.

Actually in full it is still 50/50. If the NHL had proposed the same deal without the "make whole" part it would also be 50/50 still.

The players would receive 50% of HRR in either situation. The difference in the "make whole" proposal is which players get what share of the 50%. The "make whole" guys would receive a proportionally high share than the non "make whole" players.

 

[kfan22]

Reading articles from Pierre Lebrun & Elliotte Friedman they both seem to think we are close even with the happenings that have taken place today

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/19852/cba-talks-not-as-dire-as-they-look

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opi...r-solution-could-come-from-auto-industry.html

 

[Crease]

Correcting your analogy.

Overall, my employer is making money. But some of his departments are losing money.
But overall, my employer makes money.

No need for me to give and give. There's a need for you to fix your departments.

I'm curious. What do you suggest?

 

[haseoke39]

Correcting your analogy.

Overall, my employer is making money. But some of his departments are losing money.
But overall, my employer makes money.

No need for me to give and give. There's a need for you to fix your departments.

This doesn't really work as economic analysis. The owners, as the last buck-stops-here folks, are both best incentivized and best educated on how to get profitable franchises. The player's job in these negotiations is not to tell the league how to earn revenues. It is just to argue for the most revenues for themselves.

So maybe it will involve contraction, meaning players will get laid off, and maybe it will involve expansion to more profitable areas (if they exist - it seems to me like fans have a grass is greener presumption about every place that doesn't have an NHL team), and maybe it will involve moving teams. But this is not the place where that negotiation belongs and players are not the people who should be deciding it.

 

[Ducks DVM]

The NHL should make it interesting. The "make it whole" number they expect as the shortfall for next year would be 149M at the 5% growth rate (good luck with that at this point, but lets play make believe). If they would only subject salaries over 5M to that deferred payment, a quick look at capgeek shows that the top 50 players have an aggregate salary over 5M of about 138M. I have no idea what the actual number of NHLPA members is, but if we assume anyone with an NHL contract is it's a number between 25-50 per team, a little math leaves me wondering how much the other 700-1400 or so players would really be ok with missing pay checks so that those 50-60 players didn't have to wait 2-3 years to still get all their money......

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opi...r-solution-could-come-from-auto-industry.html

This seems to be a decent solution to me.

I agree with him that there will likely be secret meetings and quite likely we won't know until a few days later when real progress is made.

 

[pucka lucka]

This doesn't really work as economic analysis. The owners, as the last buck-stops-here folks, are both best incentivized and best educated on how to get profitable franchises. The player's job in these negotiations is not to tell the league how to earn revenues. It is just to argue for the most revenues for themselves.

So maybe it will involve contraction, meaning players will get laid off, and maybe it will involve expansion to more profitable areas (if they exist - it seems to me like fans have a grass is greener presumption about every place that doesn't have an NHL team), and maybe it will involve moving teams. But this is not the place where that negotiation belongs and players are not the people who should be deciding it.

I don't understand why certain people can't acknowledge that these are not 2 parties on equal footing; they never will be. Unions weren't created so deca millionaires didn't have to take small pay cuts.

 

[Honeycutt]

Correcting your analogy.

Overall, my employer is making money. But some of his departments are losing money.
But overall, my employer makes money.

No need for me to give and give. There's a need for you to fix your departments.

If your companies profit margin was as terrible as the nhl's overall profit your boss would close up shop and you would be somewhere else.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

So this means that it's the owners turn to propose an offer now right? They usually do the ping-pong rule so it's their turn to submit 3 offers.

 

[XLJ]

From a pr standpoint, players would be better off just letting Fehr handle the talking. Owners are smart for not talking to the media. Their letting Bettman take all the blame from frustrated fans/media. Players should be doing the same thing with Fehr.

They need to ban Bissonnette from tweeting about the lockout. He is just making the players look bad.