News Article: "You have spent your bullet" Shanahan and Dubas revisited

[kevsh]

This talk about toughness is fine, but not their most pressing issue: They are the 5th worst defensive team in the league.

Getting Barrie/Ceci this summer was a band-aid solution. So going into the off-season Dubas will have the same issue he faced going into last year's off-season, a top 4 right shot and another defender (preferably right shot as well).

Once this team has a blue line that is at least comparable to the top teams, then let's talk toughness, grit, sandpaper and the rest of it. I agree with everyone that says they need it, just about priorities.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Is this the biggest meme on hf boards right now?

Is it true? Yes he drafts really good. Signed needs when he could. I’d say its on the players there bro.

It doesn’t look very smart questioning this G.M right now. He just drafted the best scoring left winger prospect in the world last year.. Has a 20 year old defenseman playing sheltered minutes onbthe big club that he drafted 2 years ago and his core players are young young. This team needs expierence before to much can be complained about. Young players don’t handle pressure as well. They have to pull up their socks and kick butt

 

[budzz]

Meh I still think the gamble on Barrie was a sound one, even if only for one year. Kerfoot had decent numbers and is more in line with a 3rd line center. Barrie's offensive numbers should have been a decent fit throwing pucks up to our elite forwards, just hasn't worked out... yet. If we get into the playoffs we may well see a different Barrie, and as far as I am concerned if he can chip in some important points to help win a playoff series or 2, he is forgiven.

Once Muzz is back and we can actually have 6 nhl defencemen on all at the same time (has not happened yet this year), it should be better. Just hope they can get up to speed quickly.

Biggest problem now on this team is bottom 6, which is way easier to fix than top 6. If johnsson was healthy it would help. Kap needs to be more consistent but I still think he has a "big game" or 2 in the playoffs in him. Spezza is capable. Cliff could make a huge difference in the playoffs. Just need everyone getting a groove together and we'll be okay.

At least the big 4 are doing their jobs... Matty and Marner are over point a game (and everyone still says Marner sucks should be traded!). Tavares quietly has 26 goals and just under a point a game (and everyone says he sucks crappy year what happened to Tavares??) Willie has 30 goals and some big ones lately.

Bottom six got to pick it up a bit and toss in a few and we'll be fine!

 

[Pookie]

My point isn't that we don't have ROR. My point is that outside of Hyman we have no one that represents what Shanny values in a player.

One hund-0

 

[tom leafers]

Thats true. Just now they have to start playing playoff hockey 13 games earlier. Captain Morgan back will give trap teams something to chew on when he gets his skating going in a couple games. Big help. Engvall should be shipped to the minors and Agostino called up and go from there. Agostino has energy we need in a stretch where it will be a battle

Engvall offers up half a hit per game. Wrong. Put out or get out

It is very frustrating seeing these giant guys not use there size To their advantage. Although I did see GOAT throw a hit today and I was quite surprised

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It is very frustrating seeing these giant guys not use there size To their advantage. Although I did see GOAT throw a hit today and I was quite surprised

Thats good, i noticed that also. He’s still not near aggressive enough if he wants to stay on the team. He needs to start crushing players every time the hit is there.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Meh I still think the gamble on Barrie was a sound one, even if only for one year. Kerfoot had decent numbers and is more in line with a 3rd line center. Barrie's offensive numbers should have been a decent fit throwing pucks up to our elite forwards, just hasn't worked out... yet. If we get into the playoffs we may well see a different Barrie, and as far as I am concerned if he can chip in some important points to help win a playoff series or 2, he is forgiven.

Once Muzz is back and we can actually have 6 nhl defencemen on all at the same time (has not happened yet this year), it should be better. Just hope they can get up to speed quickly.

Biggest problem now on this team is bottom 6, which is way easier to fix than top 6. If johnsson was healthy it would help. Kap needs to be more consistent but I still think he has a "big game" or 2 in the playoffs in him. Spezza is capable. Cliff could make a huge difference in the playoffs. Just need everyone getting a groove together and we'll be okay.

At least the big 4 are doing their jobs... Matty and Marner are over point a game (and everyone still says Marner sucks should be traded!). Tavares quietly has 26 goals and just under a point a game (and everyone says he sucks crappy year what happened to Tavares??) Willie has 30 goals and some big ones lately.

Bottom six got to pick it up a bit and toss in a few and we'll be fine!

Love your attitude. Spot on as to what real Leafs fans talk about in real life at work, the bar etc.

What's the point in being pessimistic? We've been making the playoffs for a few years finally, we have star players, it hasn't all come together yet but the future is bright. We're battling in a top heavy division.

I'm fine with Dubas but ok if he's the guy that takes the blame, whatever.

Shanny on the other hand. He's to me the guy that came in and made this team go about things the right and patient way and hope he sticks around forever. He's got the right idea about how to keep plugging along with a young team.

 

[Jojalu]

I am still trying to wrap my head around about how an ex-player like Shanahan doesn't lose his mind seeing how "soft" this team is especially when the goalie gets run or a player gets boarded/cheapshoted there is no response from the team mates

Does dubas have some dirt on Shanahan or what?

I know people think it's just the Leafs. Vancouver fans complain about the same thing and the have Miller, Ferland, Horvat, Roussel and a few others and they do nothing.

It is just a new philosophy not to get involved in scrums after the whistle.

Agree with it or not, it is just part of almost half the teams now.

These guys have to take so many concusssion protocol meetings and seminars, not to mention there is very little hate between teams left in the league as most of the players are close. Just different times we live in.

NHL still has come nowhere close to adjusting their rules and play as the NFL.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Dubass should be fired. And a real G.M. should be brought in.
NOT some punk ass kid. This team is going to be so small other teams
will be throwing them around like a bunch of beach balls. And will never
again make the play offs with him as the g.m.

This team is not small. If you care about facts.

 

[Nithoniniel]

My view is the same as what I've reiterated over and over. If Andersen plays to his usual level and we have the injury situation of the average team, we are likely pushing 90 points right now, and there's not a word of criticism. Instead we are fighting for a spot because of these reasons, and totally unrelated factors are suddenly criticized as well.

I've liked the majority of what Dubas has done so far, and Keefe has been a significant improvement on Babcock.

 

[CincoHolio]

The league as a whole is way more soft now. There simply aren't many of those grit with skill players available at any given time.

On another note, it's interesting to hear Shanahan say that about ROR and yet we traded our ROR-lite in Kadri for 2 extremely soft players. Not hating on the trade at the time because the greater need seemed to be RD at the time and Kadri effectively had suspensioned himself out of this market. But the comment definitely brings to light one of management's biggest misreads.

 

[NCoRe]

My thoughts? Well I think Shanahan and Dubas should be fired.

And we all are incredibly happy that youre not makin decisions.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Yes if Leafs still had Kadri they would be cruising into the POs, only to have Naz go goofy and get suspended in game 2 and hurting the team yet again. Wash rinse repeat. That ship has sailed.

I suppose thats true. I have a bias like for Homegrown Kadri.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Meh I still think the gamble on Barrie was a sound one, even if only for one year. Kerfoot had decent numbers and is more in line with a 3rd line center. Barrie's offensive numbers should have been a decent fit throwing pucks up to our elite forwards, just hasn't worked out... yet. If we get into the playoffs we may well see a different Barrie, and as far as I am concerned if he can chip in some important points to help win a playoff series or 2, he is forgiven.

Once Muzz is back and we can actually have 6 nhl defencemen on all at the same time (has not happened yet this year), it should be better. Just hope they can get up to speed quickly.

Biggest problem now on this team is bottom 6, which is way easier to fix than top 6. If johnsson was healthy it would help. Kap needs to be more consistent but I still think he has a "big game" or 2 in the playoffs in him. Spezza is capable. Cliff could make a huge difference in the playoffs. Just need everyone getting a groove together and we'll be okay.

At least the big 4 are doing their jobs... Matty and Marner are over point a game (and everyone still says Marner sucks should be traded!). Tavares quietly has 26 goals and just under a point a game (and everyone says he sucks crappy year what happened to Tavares??) Willie has 30 goals and some big ones lately.

Bottom six got to pick it up a bit and toss in a few and we'll be fine!

Thats a good post. Cool.

 

[Boxscore]

After this season, I suspect "the proof will be in the pudding" as they say. If the Leafs, or a team like Vancouver or Edmonton, go far or win the Cup playing firewagon, offensive hockey--there will be a shift and Dubas will be proven right. But if a team like St. Louis, Boston, Vegas, Philly, etc. win the war of attrition by scratching and clawing their way through--the winning recipe will still be a mix of skill, grit, character and physicality. I honestly can't remember the last team who won a Cup by strictly playing run-and-gun, offensive hockey. Even the "finesse teams" of the past had their "guys" to bring the pain when needed, or gritty role players who were a key to success. Even the high-octane Isles and Oilers of the 80's needed the Nystroms, Tonnellis, Morrows, MacTavishes, McSorleys, Tikkanens of the world to win Cups. If it was just Gretzky, the Oilers wouldn't have won a Cup without him.

 

[paulhiggins]

And we all are incredibly happy that youre not makin decisions.

If you think you can speak and spell for everyone you are being naive.

 

[Dough72]

last year St Louis made Shanahan and Dubas look stupid. They don't like that idea one bit especially the part where the traditionalists they mindlessly resent were proven right, so now they bring up St Louis and Ryan O'Reilly like some feather in their cap like they knew the entire time that character/grit/toughness/veterans matter, and even more strangely that the current roster they built is secretly really similar to St Louis and Ryan O'Reilly lol. Even though you'd have to be delusional to think so and even though just last season they lectured us that those things don't matter ("Standing up for your teammates is a silly traditional idea! We will punish teams with our powerplay instead!" sigh).

 

[m1ker]

Serious question. Is toughness something you are born with or is it something your body grows into over time? Are guys like Matthews, Dermott, Holl, Nylander going to remain soft or as they grow older and turn into men their bodies will get bigger and they will grow tougher? I look at guys like Bozak, Spezza, Kadri who were soft when they were younger but I look at their frames now and they are built and have natural toughness built into their game. Are we just over-reacting? Is our lack of toughness because we have a young team that hasn't grown into men yet?

 

[Stephen]

My view is the same as what I've reiterated over and over. If Andersen plays to his usual level and we have the injury situation of the average team, we are likely pushing 90 points right now, and there's not a word of criticism. Instead we are fighting for a spot because of these reasons, and totally unrelated factors are suddenly criticized as well.

I've liked the majority of what Dubas has done so far, and Keefe has been a significant improvement on Babcock.

Singling out Andersen and Babcock as the twin scapegoats is pretty tiresome. They are very much to blame for what has gone wrong with the Leafs to date, but the rest of the group is also responsible for continuously exposing the goalie as well as failing to play the Mike Babcock way, which in and of itself isn't the wrong way to play hockey other than the fact that it didn't suit the taste of our core players.

 

[Stephen]

Serious question. Is toughness something you are born with or is it something your body grows into over time? Are guys like Matthews, Dermott, Holl, Nylander going to remain soft or as they grow older and turn into men their bodies will get bigger and they will grow tougher? I look at guys like Bozak, Spezza, Kadri who were soft when they were younger but I look at their frames now and they are built and have natural toughness built into their game. Are we just over-reacting? Is our lack of toughness because we have a young team that hasn't grown into men yet?

Depends on the person. Spezza didn't get tougher with age, though doesn't get pushed around like in the early 2000s vs the Quinn Leafs. Sundin went from an Elias Pettersson style young finesse player into a heavy duty power center over the course of his career. William Nylander looks like he's starting to incorporate a heavier power game with that one handed Forsberg move of his.

 

[nuck]

Serious question. Is toughness something you are born with or is it something your body grows into over time? Are guys like Matthews, Dermott, Holl, Nylander going to remain soft or as they grow older and turn into men their bodies will get bigger and they will grow tougher? I look at guys like Bozak, Spezza, Kadri who were soft when they were younger but I look at their frames now and they are built and have natural toughness built into their game. Are we just over-reacting? Is our lack of toughness because we have a young team that hasn't grown into men yet?

They will stay "soft" or rather they will tend to play that way. The Goat will never erase players nor will Rielly. Their success has been based on how little contact they play with and still get it done. Danglers dangle and grinders grind and by the time a player hits the NHL he has had many years of refining his game and doesn't change easily. If a finesse player manages to make themselves substantially stronger they might be harder to knock around but they aren't going to throw more hits. Lots of "soft" guys are actually quite physically strong. If you get a player who manhandles others that is their temperament, not necessarily their physical strength. Kadri has that innate aggression. Spezza is just big with a bit of old man strength and he has always been able to use his body to protect the puck, kind of like Sundin who had players bounce off of him but never scared anyone in the corners because he was concentrating on getting the puck, not pinning his man.

I absolutely believe players can be coached to be more physical, but its more of a team thing than an individual thing (see Flyers hockey and Bruins hockey). If the coach says finish your checks and scrum when one of your guys gets knocked down that is easy enough. Some coaches won't try that if they don't believe their players are the right type or maybe they have had success with attacking all the time rather than any kind of physical domination. Remember Junior teams can be physically dominant based on the number of 19 year olds they have rather than how those same guys will be 5 years later. I think KD built this team based on a skill to strength ratio that hasn't proven out, so he will gradually tweak it. That is really not any different than a club that starts off with too much crunch but must add the dangle to get it done. Clubs evolve until they win big or their core gets old.

 

[ottomaddox]

Serious question. Is toughness something you are born with or is it something your body grows into over time? Are guys like Matthews, Dermott, Holl, Nylander going to remain soft or as they grow older and turn into men their bodies will get bigger and they will grow tougher? I look at guys like Bozak, Spezza, Kadri who were soft when they were younger but I look at their frames now and they are built and have natural toughness built into their game. Are we just over-reacting? Is our lack of toughness because we have a young team that hasn't grown into men yet?

I don't think Spezza and Bozak are good examples of toughness.

More than anything courage, strength, emotion is something you're born with. Being able to take a hit or a punch never hurts either.

Some of my favourite players never lead their team in penalty minutes, or danced with someone in a staged fight. They just never took any crap, never backed down, and never let their team mate get taken advantage of. They certainly didn't watch their goalie get tackled without doing something.

 

[Todd03]

I am still trying to wrap my head around about how an ex-player like Shanahan doesn't lose his mind seeing how "soft" this team is especially when the goalie gets run or a player gets boarded/cheapshoted there is no response from the team mates

Does dubas have some dirt on Shanahan or what?

If leafs don't make playoffs after two straight year of being in the
playoffs Dubass will be fired. And Doug Gilmore will be made the G.M.
If you look at the Marlies Championship team which was bigger and this
years team the champs are a smaller team which also has no grit and toughness.
And team defence is small as hell. Even the Marlies are getting kicked around.
Which will be even smaller next year. With Nick Robertson, Mikhail Abramov ,
Semyon Der-Arguchintsev. This having a small team with no size and grit and toughness
and solid defence with stay at home defence the leafs will not win a cup. You can have all the skill
and speed in the world but without that sandpaper in the lineup you will not win.To prove my point the
game the other night Anderson got his bell rang and nobody on the leafs did nothing to that player.
When Kasperi Kapanen gets in two fight you know something is wrong. Lets look at the Champs Defense

DEFENSEMEN #41 Robert Bortuzzo (D) 30 1989 Thunder Bay, ON, CAN 6'4" 216 R 21/22 #19 Jay Bouwmeester (D) 36 1983 Edmonton, AB, CAN 6'4" 205 L 19/20 #29 Vince Dunn (D) 23 1996 Peterborough, ON, CAN 6'0" 203 L 19/20 #72 Justin Faulk (D) 27 1992 South St. Paul, MN, USA 6'0" 216 R 26/27 #4 Carl Gunnarsson (D) 33 1986 Örebro, SWE 6'2" 198 L 20/21 #55 Colton Parayko (D) 26 1993 St. Albert, AB, CAN 6'6" 229 R 21/22 #27 Alex Pietrangelo (D) “C” 30 1990 King City, ON, CAN 6'3" 209 R 19/20 #6 Marco Scandella (D) 30 1990 Montréal, QC, CAN 6'3" 209 L 19/20 [TBODY] [/TBODY] [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Now the maple leafs defense Morgan Reilly 26 6'1
Tyson Barrie 28 5'10
Travis Dermott 23 5'11
Cody Ceci 26 6'2
Justin Holl 28 6'3
Rarmus Sandin 20 5'11
Leafs defense is small as hell. With no toughness, grit or anything. With other defense on it's way Timothy Liljegren 20 6'0 Mac Hollowell 21 5'10 Joseph Duszak 22 5'10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[danny90]

I'm not getting you. Are you saying that TOR is better off without him? Who helps us win games then? Is Clifford not scoring enough game winning goals for your liking?

we probably have the same record with or without clifford

 

[FraumBallard]

My thoughts? Well I think Shanahan and Dubas should be fired.

Like.
100% Agree.