News Article: "You have spent your bullet" Shanahan and Dubas revisited

[ottomaddox]

Shanahan, Dubas on same Leafs page moving forward | The Telegram

I thought this article was facinating because of where we are now, the "bullet" line that Shanny used, and the team toughness viewpoint that obviously changed when they brought in Clifford.

Some interesting quotes:

“I don’t see this or view thi"s decision by Kyle and the team as a situation where traditionalists might say, ‘You have spent your bullet,’ ” Shanahan said. “That’s not how I view it. I can tell you that’s not how our ownership views it. We’re in this together."

Shanny addressed something that is clearly starring at him in the face now: Babs firing with no improvement could mean Dubas' firing followed by his.

“I think sometimes people want to too simplistically put us in one box as speed and skill, and toughness and grit in an entirely different box. We want to be also tough, we want to be gritty. I think that our interpretation of toughness and grittiness might be different from someone who played in the ’70s or ’80s or coached then.”

Sorry Shanny, but toughness has never left the NHL. Yeah we don't see players climbing in the stands to beat down the fans anymore, but the 90's teams Shanny played for had toughness. There was toughness in the 2000's, the 2010's...It never goes away. If it did go away then why trade for Clifford!?

Shanahan used St. Louis Blues centre Ryan O’Reilly, who can play a gritty game but also can produce, as an example. Shanahan pointed to O’Reilly winning the Conn Smythe Trophy last spring as the Blues won the Stanley Cup while recording 20 points in 22 playoff games, and just four penalty minutes.
“How we define that to our players about winning battles and being mentally tough, making a mistake and not becoming weak or small because of it (is important),” Shanahan said.

Well this is all good, but we don't have ROR playing for TOR. We do don't have anyone in our top 6 that resembles him.

Thoughts?

Click to read more...

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I can’t even read it. Doesn’t give the article man

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Shanahan, Dubas on same Leafs page moving forward | The Telegram

I thought this article was facinating because of where we are now, the "bullet" line that Shanny used, and the team toughness viewpoint that obviously changed when they brought in Clifford.

Some interesting quotes:

“I don’t see this or view thi"s decision by Kyle and the team as a situation where traditionalists might say, ‘You have spent your bullet,’ ” Shanahan said. “That’s not how I view it. I can tell you that’s not how our ownership views it. We’re in this together."

Shanny addressed something that is clearly starring at him in the face now: Babs firing with no improvement could mean Dubas' firing followed by his.

“I think sometimes people want to too simplistically put us in one box as speed and skill, and toughness and grit in an entirely different box. We want to be also tough, we want to be gritty. I think that our interpretation of toughness and grittiness might be different from someone who played in the ’70s or ’80s or coached then.”

Sorry Shanny, but toughness has never left the NHL. Yeah we don't see players climbing in the stands to beat down the fans anymore, but the 90's teams Shanny played for had toughness. There was toughness in the 2000's, the 2010's...It never goes away. If it did go away then why trade for Clifford!?

Shanahan used St. Louis Blues centre Ryan O’Reilly, who can play a gritty game but also can produce, as an example. Shanahan pointed to O’Reilly winning the Conn Smythe Trophy last spring as the Blues won the Stanley Cup while recording 20 points in 22 playoff games, and just four penalty minutes.
“How we define that to our players about winning battles and being mentally tough, making a mistake and not becoming weak or small because of it (is important),” Shanahan said.

Well this is all good, but we don't have ROR playing for TOR. We do don't have anyone in our top 6 that resembles him.

Thoughts?

The toughness he references in that quote largely HAS left the NHL and I don't think anyone would doubt the grittiness he wants is grit that can play. Referencing O'Reilly sounds in keeping with that notion. Not sure that pointing out we don't have O'Reilly in our top 6 means much of anything? That's the type he'd like to see. How many teams in the league have an O'Reilly? They are a rare breed. Yes they acquired a Clifford but at current with no term. That's like saying they took on Ceci for one year. If they can get an O'Reilly type, I would bet they'd invest and that would speak volumes.

 

[Legendary]

My thoughts? Well I think Shanahan and Dubas should be fired.

 

[ottomaddox]

The toughness he references in that quote largely HAS left the NHL and I don't think anyone would doubt the grittiness he wants is grit that can play. Referencing O'Reilly sounds in keeping with that notion. Not sure that pointing out we don't have O'Reilly in our top 6 means much of anything? That's the type he'd like to see. How many teams in the league have an O'Reilly? They are a rare breed. Yes they acquired a Clifford but at current with no term. That's like saying they took on Ceci for one year. If they can get an O'Reilly type, I would bet they'd invest and that would speak volumes.

My point isn't that we don't have ROR. My point is that outside of Hyman we have no one that represents what Shanny values in a player.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Shanahan, Dubas on same Leafs page moving forward | The Telegram

I thought this article was facinating because of where we are now, the "bullet" line that Shanny used, and the team toughness viewpoint that obviously changed when they brought in Clifford.

Some interesting quotes:

“I don’t see this or view thi"s decision by Kyle and the team as a situation where traditionalists might say, ‘You have spent your bullet,’ ” Shanahan said. “That’s not how I view it. I can tell you that’s not how our ownership views it. We’re in this together."

Shanny addressed something that is clearly starring at him in the face now: Babs firing with no improvement could mean Dubas' firing followed by his.

“I think sometimes people want to too simplistically put us in one box as speed and skill, and toughness and grit in an entirely different box. We want to be also tough, we want to be gritty. I think that our interpretation of toughness and grittiness might be different from someone who played in the ’70s or ’80s or coached then.”

Sorry Shanny, but toughness has never left the NHL. Yeah we don't see players climbing in the stands to beat down the fans anymore, but the 90's teams Shanny played for had toughness. There was toughness in the 2000's, the 2010's...It never goes away. If it did go away then why trade for Clifford!?

Shanahan used St. Louis Blues centre Ryan O’Reilly, who can play a gritty game but also can produce, as an example. Shanahan pointed to O’Reilly winning the Conn Smythe Trophy last spring as the Blues won the Stanley Cup while recording 20 points in 22 playoff games, and just four penalty minutes.
“How we define that to our players about winning battles and being mentally tough, making a mistake and not becoming weak or small because of it (is important),” Shanahan said.

Well this is all good, but we don't have ROR playing for TOR. We do don't have anyone in our top 6 that resembles him.

Thoughts?

Cup winning experience, defensive ability, strong possession numbers? I mean if they wanted a physical player, they could have got a more physical player for a cost that was far lower than the one required to get Clifford.

That being said, Clifford has not really been a huge factor at all. People like his physicality but in terms of how he helps this team win games, he is not really any better than any other 4th liner we've had.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

My point isn't that we don't have ROR. My point is that outside of Hyman we no one that represents what Shanny values in a player.

Much of his top 6 is drafted. I doubt you are going to draft based on grit. The O'Reilly types are few and far between so I wouldn't expect one overnight. I mean really, how many players can you name that bring grit and decent skill?

Fairly certain they would add three of Hyman tomorrow if they could. Where do you find that?

 

[Merrrlin]

I haven't lost faith in Shanny yet, and my Dubas faith is hanging on by a thread lately, so I mostly agree with what he says in the article.

The reality is that we could go on a tear and make it to the ECF.

I generally try not to say a coach, GM or President should be fired during a season where they are sitting in a playoff position, because anything can happen once you are in.

As much as I would love some physicality in our lineup, what I want more than anything is a couple top 4 defencemen that can break the puck out and can play a 2-1.

 

[ottomaddox]

Cup winning experience, defensive ability, strong possession numbers? I mean if they wanted a physical player, they could have got a more physical player for a cost that was far lower than the one required to get Clifford.

That being said, Clifford has not really been a huge factor at all. People like his physicality but in terms of how he helps this team win games, he is not really any better than any other 4th liner we've had.

I'm not getting you. Are you saying that TOR is better off without him? Who helps us win games then? Is Clifford not scoring enough game winning goals for your liking?

 

[Cobra777]

Clifford was not brought in to be a point producer, he came with Campbell who was the main piece Dubas was after to address our dismal goal tending situation. Clifford however has added a big dimension at finishing checks and able to stand up for team players when necessary.
Kappy and a few have followed suit since Cliffy's arrival especially when you feel that someone has your back. I really feel Clifford will start to get adequate points once he is on a line that doesn't change week to week and gets used to a different system possibly, he has had some opportunity but go look at his highlight vids on U Tube he has scored some nice goals brings alot of intensity and is admirably more than decent at dropping the gloves when its needed. I would bet if asked in secret that he would be a tad peeved at more than 3/4 of his team having NO interest in even finishing their checks or having the cahones to stand up for a team mate other than Kappy, Hyman and himself.

 

[thewave]

He means.. Shot your last bolt. Yes he has as far as the majority of Leafs Nation. It's success or get out of here now. That's where we are, this is supposed to be the conference finals team at minimum.

Do, or do not. There is no try.

Win or P-off.

 

[Weltschmerz]

It‘s the great Shanahan, this is his great Shanaplan.

scnr

 

[tom leafers]

I haven't lost faith in Shanny yet, and my Dubas faith is hanging on by a thread lately, so I mostly agree with what he says in the article.

The reality is that we could go on a tear and make it to the ECF.

I generally try not to say a coach, GM or President should be fired during a season where they are sitting in a playoff position, because anything can happen once you are in.

As much as I would love some physicality in our lineup, what I want more than anything is a couple top 4 defencemen that can break the puck out and can play a 2-1.

Im not really on the "fire Shanny and Dubas" train either.

they had back to back 100 point season and played a pretty good bruins team to 7 games both years.

Im willing to give Dubas another year. good team miss the playoffs all the time. look at Tampa in 2017 as a prime example.

 

[PromisedLand]

I am still trying to wrap my head around about how an ex-player like Shanahan doesn't lose his mind seeing how "soft" this team is especially when the goalie gets run or a player gets boarded/cheapshoted there is no response from the team mates

Does dubas have some dirt on Shanahan or what?

 

[Todd03]

Dubass should be fired. And a real G.M. should be brought in.
NOT some punk ass kid. This team is going to be so small other teams
will be throwing them around like a bunch of beach balls. And will never
again make the play offs with him as the g.m.

 

[Todd03]

Im not really on the "fire Shanny and Dubas" train either.

they had back to back 100 point season and played a pretty good bruins team to 7 games both years.

Im willing to give Dubas another year. good team miss the playoffs all the time. look at Tampa in 2017 as a prime example.

And the team is getting softer and softer every year. Has no grit, no toughness, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS HEART.

 

[Merrrlin]

I am still trying to wrap my head around about how an ex-player like Shanahan doesn't lose his mind seeing how "soft" this team is especially when the goalie gets run or a player gets boarded/cheapshoted there is no response from the team mates

Does dubas have some dirt on Shanahan or what?

How do you know he isn't seething? Maybe they expect the guys out there to grow a backbone, most of them are young and need to mature.

I don't think management watches the team get run over each night and enjoys it, but it's a process. I would have loved to see us pick up a guy like Maroon but other things got in the way, and maybe he had no interest in coming here.

 

[tom leafers]

And the team is getting softer and softer every year. Has no grit, no toughness, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS HEART.

The team has had no toughness since 2013 when Colton Orr and Fraser Mclaren were riding the 4th line straight into the ground.

As soon as Babcock got here, our team toughness basically went to zero.

Playoffs are a different game however. i remember seeing us routinely outhit Boston and throwing our weight around. if we get in this year, i am very interested in seeing how they will perform under Keefe

 

[Wafflewhipper]

My thoughts? Well I think Shanahan and Dubas should be fired.

Neither one of them will or should be fired. The big mistake Dubas made was trading Kadri and specifically trading Kadri for who he got if you are of the resolve that Kadri had to go.

His drafting is good.
Signings are always debatable by people. Thats cool but only major mistake was moving Kadri out of emotion and not waiting longer until he got exactly or close to what he wanted.

Kerfoot is a joke useless and Barrie is no better.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The team has had no toughness since 2013 when Colton Orr and Fraser Mclaren were riding the 4th line straight into the ground.

As soon as Babcock got here, our team toughness basically went to zero.

Playoffs are a different game however. i remember seeing us routinely outhit Boston and throwing our weight around. if we get in this year, i am very interested in seeing how they will perform under Keefe

Thats true. Just now they have to start playing playoff hockey 13 games earlier. Captain Morgan back will give trap teams something to chew on when he gets his skating going in a couple games. Big help. Engvall should be shipped to the minors and Agostino called up and go from there. Agostino has energy we need in a stretch where it will be a battle

Engvall offers up half a hit per game. Wrong. Put out or get out

 

[Boxscore]

Dubass should be fired. And a real G.M. should be brought in.
NOT some punk ass kid.

This has nothing to do with Dubas on a personal level--but when it comes to hockey, Toronto isn't Arizona. John Chayka has a long leash in the desert but it's hard to believe Dubas will be extended the same length, especially with glaring holes on the team. Once the media and fans become bullish on something, Dubas either needs to acquiesce or win. That said, I do believe Dubas has at least one more offseason to address some needs.

 

[nsleaf]

Neither one of them will or should be fired. The big mistake Dubas made was trading Kadri and specifically trading Kadri for who he got if you are of the resolve that Kadri had to go.

His drafting is good.
Signings are always debatable by people. Thats cool but only major mistake was moving Kadri out of emotion and not waiting longer until he got exactly or close to what he wanted.

Kerfoot is a joke useless and Barrie is no better.

Yes if Leafs still had Kadri they would be cruising into the POs, only to have Naz go goofy and get suspended in game 2 and hurting the team yet again. Wash rinse repeat. That ship has sailed.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Yes if Leafs still had Kadri they would be cruising into the POs, only to have Naz go goofy and get suspended in game 2 and hurting the team yet again. Wash rinse repeat. That ship has sailed.

Any head shot on a bruin is a good headshot. Waygo naz. Barrie and Kerfoot are jokes

 

[Leafsfan74]

When Shanahan played, he was a goal scorer with edge to his game. He was right there in the same power forward class of a Gary Roberts, or who I believe is the gold standard, Cam Neely. He had guys like McCarthy, Stu Grimson, Joey Kocur on his team. None of these players would be able to survive in this league with their style of player. Also, he had only possibly the greatest defenseman in NHL history not named Orr in Lindstrom, and guys like Rouse on the back end.

Of course, we aren't going back to the 1990s (thankfully), but does he think this team can win playoff series with 4 lines of Federov and Yzerman type players? Let's get real. Especially when other teams forwards are playing in our crease.

I don't subscribe to meatheads or physical artists. You need some grinders though, even some, like Clifford who have the balls and the sacrifice in him to drop his gloves once in awhile when his team needs to wake up. I don't like the fighting, but, it is what it is and he knows how to pick his spots, which doesn't make him a liability.

Leafs needs a bona fide #1 D man. That to me, is their most pressing issue. It's difficult to find, so you have to pay the premium when you do. Then, add depth where you can, incrementally. Move beyond players who aren't in it for the right reasons. If you want to go with 2 top heavy lines, no problem, but you need some dirty goals from other lines. Guys who can wear other teams down and show any style that needed.

In pro sports being predictable is not only easy to prepare for, it's a sure losing strategy over the long haul. Defense by committee, but a stud in the back end who players 22-24 min. a game is invaluable and makes it a whole lot easier for everyone else.

 

[Legendary]

Neither one of them will or should be fired. The big mistake Dubas made was trading Kadri and specifically trading Kadri for who he got if you are of the resolve that Kadri had to go.

His drafting is good.
Signings are always debatable by people. Thats cool but only major mistake was moving Kadri out of emotion and not waiting longer until he got exactly or close to what he wanted.

Kerfoot is a joke useless and Barrie is no better.

Is this the biggest meme on hf boards right now?