You get to choose and you can only choose one: Mike Babcock or Ken Holland.

[Heaton]

Howard was a surprise, he was fairly unremarkable for most of his AHL tenure.

The guy most surprised by Sheahan was Babcock, who still doesn't use him in a pk role where he is maybe the best guy on the team. Nyquist, a guy who after one callup got the rare treatment of oversight and forced insertion into the lineup by Holland over Babcock. But on the Sheahan thing, I seem to remember when things were breaking bad post DUI, Holland was supportive in part because he was a good hockey player with a bright future. He is a guy he had nice things to say about when he wasn't scoring at ND and talked about the upside with often. The coach is the only one continuously saying how shocked he is by these kids pace and talent. All the while he has spent his last two off-seasons watching them play a ridiculous amount, you would think that impression would have resonated with him more.

Tootoo, I want a hard body checker with a righty shot - I hate him now
Sammy, I liked using him on the PP, big body righty shot - I hate him now
Bert, he is a big body we like him and he can play with talent - oh wait he can't
Smith, I want him, I want him bad - I don't know how to use him

This cuts the other way too. He wasn't bashful on some of these players. The only one he is winning big on is Weiss in terms of saying hey you are going to have to work more and fit in and he doesn't see it.

I am not overly enthused with Holland lately. But he is a bright guy, I don't see an ideal replacement or upgrade. I don't even mind if Babcock extends, but I am hardly going to cry in my beer if he does not, given what we have in Blashill in my opinion.

These really are first world problems. Nobody stays elite forever, we haven't even fallen that far and look to be climbing back out of it, relax let it play out, the next 12 months are very big to just how quickly we climb the latter.

I don't think it's really possible to have a real debate over who would potentially take over. Nill and Yzerman were only thought of because they've been in the organization forever. Very few people have actual knowledge of outside GM skills. Not to mention the guy to hire the new GM would probably be Holland himself.

 

[Frk It]

The next 12 months is critical in my opinion to us either surging forward or staying here for the next two or three years. However, who are we getting to replace him, what realistic (Nill and Yzerman both have extended) are we turning to?

My answer to this...

I could see them doing the three-headed monster again with Holland being in the Devellano role and Martin and Fischer being the other two at the end of Holland's four year contract.

Would be this. Honestly my ideal scenario would be Holland falling back into a Devellano role where he advises on the draft and the development process, and someone else takes over as GM. I already know that you will disagree with this, but I have a hard time seeing someone who is qualified to be a NHL GM doing a worse job of managing a roster. You didn't sign anyone note-worthy in the off-season? Ok, as long as you made competitve offers. Just DON'T hit the panic button and bring back a re-tread, and DON'T leave no room for a kid that impresses in camp to actually make the team. It's not asking for a ton.

If we could combine Holland's scouting expertise, with a GM that can more effectively manage a roster, and not just go with the easy move as Heaton put it... mixed with either Blashill or Babcock or head coach... then I think you have a winning formula to get over the hump. But I have very little faith in Holland to both acquire the right pieces, and then utilize those pieces properly. As long as he is GM I don't see the team getting any better than it has been the last few years. I don't see it falling off a cliff either though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't think it's really possible to have a real debate over who would potentially take over. Nill and Yzerman were only thought of because they've been in the organization forever. Very few people have actual knowledge of outside GM skills. Not to mention the guy to hire the new GM would probably be Holland himself.

Which is a key point, he really isn't going anywhere. Of course assessing organizational talent has long been an incredible strength, so if asked to take over this search and lead that effort you should have some decent faith even if you have become dispirited with his performance as a GM lately.

You can get to choose one only per the question, but the real truth is neither of these guys is getting fired. Holland could move up and Babs could move out, but both of them have earned the right to call that shot in particular Holland who is approaching three decades of excellence in the organization.

 

[Heaton]

Which is a key point, he really isn't going anywhere. Of course assessing organizational talent has long been an incredible strength, so if asked to take over this search and lead that effort you should have some decent faith even if you have become dispirited with his performance as a GM lately.

You can get to choose one only per the question, but the real truth is neither of these guys is getting fired. Holland could move up and Babs could move out, but both of them have earned the right to call that shot in particular Holland who is approaching three decades of excellence in the organization.

Yeah, but you kept talking about hard decisions. Holland hasn't made any hard decisions so far, all of the talk about potential offerings in trades doesn't mean anything, who knows who called it off? Holland supposedly offering Nyquist and Tatar or whatever it was for Bouwmeester doesn't mean it was officially offered, but regardless.

I think there is a point to where this team needs to make moves to get to the next level, you think it's over the next 12 months, I ask, what is going to change over the next 12 months besides Babcock being fed up and leaving? My answer: nothing.

 

[theYman]

Babs in the GM role. (or if we can somehow by some miracle get Stevie back here to GM) And Blashill to take Babs spot.

 

[Dotter]

Will revisit this thread after seeing Babock's line combinations.

And to those who want Babcock as a GM over Holland, do you realize it was Babcock (and Zetterberg) who rallied to get Cleary re-signed last season? If he had his way, he would sign every Cleary look alike and their realgud brothers/cousins to fill out the roster.

And I'm not too confident with Blashill after he got his ass handed to him in the Texas Stars series. He was severely outcoached and outclassed. He's not ready for the NHL anytime soon.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i think babs ranks better among coaches than holland does among GMs. way better.

GM is more important position though.

only thing i would miss on kenny is his ability to draft and find good people. granted, important things but being a GM is more important these days.

not cutting my wrists if babs leaves but i lean on him here.

 

[Winger98]

My answer to this...



Would be this. Honestly my ideal scenario would be Holland falling back into a Devellano role where he advises on the draft and the development process, and someone else takes over as GM. I already know that you will disagree with this, but I have a hard time seeing someone who is qualified to be a NHL GM doing a worse job of managing a roster. You didn't sign anyone note-worthy in the off-season? Ok, as long as you made competitve offers. Just DON'T hit the panic button and bring back a re-tread, and DON'T leave no room for a kid that impresses in camp to actually make the team. It's not asking for a ton.

If we could combine Holland's scouting expertise, with a GM that can more effectively manage a roster, and not just go with the easy move as Heaton put it... mixed with either Blashill or Babcock or head coach... then I think you have a winning formula to get over the hump. But I have very little faith in Holland to both acquire the right pieces, and then utilize those pieces properly. As long as he is GM I don't see the team getting any better than it has been the last few years. I don't see it falling off a cliff either though.

I think what you outline (Holland moving up, backfilling with someone else) is ideal, but I think we'd have difficult time pulling someone in from outside the organization who would want to fit into that and not gut the place to some degree to fill in his own people. Outside of losing Nill and Yzerman to other GM jobs, I think this is where their raiding our cupboards really hurt us - especially losing Joe McDonnell. If McDonnell had stayed, I think we would have seen him moved into a role similar to Nill's, maybe on par with Martin's stature in management.

Nill and Yzerman treated the Wings like an organizational buffet line, though.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

a new coach, lets say Blashill, wont chnage a thing.

We will still resign quinceys and clearys and sammys, we will still choose to demote nyquist and ouellet in favour of eaves and kindl and we still make the same boneheaded trade deadline deals and panicky free agent day signings.

nothing creative will happen, no trimming of fat and nothing will change.

the same half-baked mentality will continue while we choose to focus on the past(which will become further anf further away)

 

[Heaton]

Will revisit this thread after seeing Babock's line combinations.

And to those who want Babcock as a GM over Holland, do you realize it was Babcock (and Zetterberg) who rallied to get Cleary re-signed last season? If he had his way, he would sign every Cleary look alike and their realgud brothers/cousins to fill out the roster.

And I'm not too confident with Blashill after he got his ass handed to him in the Texas Stars series. He was severely outcoached and outclassed. He's not ready for the NHL anytime soon.

If Holland didn't want him signed, he wouldn't have signed him two years in a row.

 

[Vladdy84]

This is exhausting. Kenny's GM till he doesn't want to be. And there's a strong chance Babcock leaves and goes to a weaker organization. However, I think he re-ups for a couple more years ultimately.

 

[AD1066]

And he did most of it with a combination of money and luck. He rode the team's pre-lockout resources to post-lockout success, and then became less and less effective as his resources bled away.

I'm with you on this one. We rode Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom for years, but his actual track record of trades and acquisitions leaves a lot to be desired. Thank god our scouting is competent.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't think a new GM would have been able to work miracles or make us a cup contender where Holland has failed to do so, but a fresh voice might just have an easier time getting things done. For one, GMs wouldn't be afraid that anything they do will help Holland build his legacy, and second it would give the team a stronger feeling of a fresh start instead of this being the twilight years of Holland and the Red Wings long run of success.

So I think a new GM would help us more than a new coach. Babcock is still one of the best, quirks and all. Give him a roster that can contend for a cup and he will make it happen. Give him a bubble-team roster and he will get them into the playoffs but not much more.

 

[steafo]

I picked Babs. But frankly, sometimes I wonder if we would be better off with both of them gone. Sometimes the same message isn't "heard" after it is said 100000000000 times.

I feel like Holland inherited an ideal situation when he came in. Illitch opened his checkbook and we won a few cups before the lockout/salary cap. Holland rebuilt our farm system but I have to wonder what % of that was really Hakan Andersson and the scouting staff. I know it's Holland's job to manage said staff but is he really pulling the strings much on a staff that is as established as this one? His failure to EVER move a roster player for a need is a real head scratcher. Not that blockbusters or roster players move often from other teams but what has he done in the last 5-10 years besides over value over-ripe veterans, over-ripen our young players, hand out loyalty contracts, and continue to go back to the well re-signing Samuelsson, J. Will...etc. etc.

Babcock is a great coach. I'm with everyone else saying he has made some real head scratching line combinations. I have to wonder if some of this is Babcock posturing because he isn't allowed to really pick his lineup. This seems more obvious to me after the recent exerpts from Babcock stating that he has picked his lineup but he only gets 1 vote while Kenny gets 2. I think Babs is gone after this year, there seems to be a disconnect between these 2 (from an outside perspective) over the last couple years. Where there's smoke there's fire.

 

[steafo]

My answer to this...



Would be this. Honestly my ideal scenario would be Holland falling back into a Devellano role where he advises on the draft and the development process, and someone else takes over as GM. I already know that you will disagree with this, but I have a hard time seeing someone who is qualified to be a NHL GM doing a worse job of managing a roster. You didn't sign anyone note-worthy in the off-season? Ok, as long as you made competitve offers. Just DON'T hit the panic button and bring back a re-tread, and DON'T leave no room for a kid that impresses in camp to actually make the team. It's not asking for a ton.

If we could combine Holland's scouting expertise, with a GM that can more effectively manage a roster, and not just go with the easy move as Heaton put it... mixed with either Blashill or Babcock or head coach... then I think you have a winning formula to get over the hump. But I have very little faith in Holland to both acquire the right pieces, and then utilize those pieces properly. As long as he is GM I don't see the team getting any better than it has been the last few years. I don't see it falling off a cliff either though.

Great post...the bold is what I have the biggest issue with. Mishandling our own talent. Why re-sign people washed up players that nobody wants to sign when we have sooo many prospects knocking at the door. If the difference in playing the vet vs. the rookie means winning the cup then OK, I am fine with that. But it isn't now, and it hasn't been that way in some time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Great post...the bold is what I have the biggest issue with. Mishandling our own talent. Why re-sign people washed up players that nobody wants to sign when we have sooo many prospects knocking at the door. If the difference in playing the vet vs. the rookie means winning the cup then OK, I am fine with that. But it isn't now, and it hasn't been that way in some time.

Cleary shouldn't have been signed but so far he hasn't blocked any kids this season. Callahan and Ferraro aren't good enough for the NHL right now, Pulkkinen showed nothing in camp, and both Jurco and Nestrasil are on the team. We will have to see what happens when Datsyuk comes back and IF Alfie returns, but it's not looking like Cleary will get a free pass.

As for the other retread, Quincey, we need him. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bottom 3 of Kindl, Lashoff and Ouellet/Marchenko/Jensen.

I think Holland has a chance to turn this offseason from a disappointing one into an okay one if he finds a way to move Kindl and at least one of Cleary and Andersson. If his next move is to waive Nestrasil or send Jurco down, then it is indeed a mishandling of talent.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Cleary shouldn't have been signed but so far he hasn't blocked any kids this season. Callahan and Ferraro aren't good enough for the NHL right now, Pulkkinen showed nothing in camp, and both Jurco and Nestrasil are on the team. We will have to see what happens when Datsyuk comes back and IF Alfie returns, but it's not looking like Cleary will get a free pass.

As for the other retread, Quincey, we need him. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bottom 3 of Kindl, Lashoff and Ouellet/Marchenko/Jensen.

I think Holland has a chance to turn this offseason from a disappointing one into an okay one if he finds a way to move Kindl and at least one of Cleary and Andersson. If his next move is to waive Nestrasil or send Jurco down, then it is indeed a mishandling of talent.

the sole reason "we need" quiney is because holland FAILED to not need quincey. he failed at his job over and over and over again. Look lidstrom was going to retire, it was known for years before he actually did simply because he was getting older, his birth date tells us this. we did not prepare it.

Now I dont blame holland for not replacing lidstrom with another lidstrom but i do blame holland for replacing lidstrom with quincey. whether it be the draft, ufa or through trades holland has had years to adequately address the issues on defence. We got to the point where we "needed quincey" solely because of the mistakes holland made and continues to make.

holland hasnt made a trade in seven? years that involved moving out actual roster players and bringing in actual long term roster players of value. He wont be able to move kindl, not this week, next month or this year. At best he will buy him out/waive him.

babcock wants to have a winning roster now and in the future

holland wants to remember the winning rosters from last decade

 

[Hckytwn]

Extending Bertuzzi and Cleary.

Signing Sammy, Quincey and Tootoo

Mishandling NHL ready prospects.

Giving multi year contracts to bottom six talent.

Followed by doing a whole lot of nothing in between bad signings.

I think Kenny should have the lions share of the blame when it comes to trying to explain what went wrong during the past five seasons.

Babcock has been far from perfect, but i trust that he can still get the job done if the GM isn't using all of the teams available cap space on crap.

Amen. Never forget!!!

Choosing between Babcock and Holland is like choosing between Jenny McCarthy and Melissa McCarthy. Too bad we don't actually have the choice; we're going to get stuck with Melissa when Jenny jumps ship.

 

[Flowah]

Which contracts?

Mostly RFA contracts and no brainers like Dekeyser's first contract and Datsyuk's extension.

Holland is massively underwhelming in trading/free agency. Other than Hossa, Alfie is the only one to really work out the past 5 years. Whether it's just his terrible luck or something else, he just hasn't won on any others.

But his drafting is keeping him and this team alive. Even the picks made in the last couple of years are pretty good. We've got a stud goalie, a few promising d-prospects right on the edge, a bunch of good forwards. I have no idea how our prospect pool truly compares to the 29 other teams, but we seem to come out in the top10/15 on all those lists. And the ones at the top are generally the worst teams who pick really high.

 

[steafo]

Cleary shouldn't have been signed but so far he hasn't blocked any kids this season. Callahan and Ferraro aren't good enough for the NHL right now, Pulkkinen showed nothing in camp, and both Jurco and Nestrasil are on the team. We will have to see what happens when Datsyuk comes back and IF Alfie returns, but it's not looking like Cleary will get a free pass.

As for the other retread, Quincey, we need him. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bottom 3 of Kindl, Lashoff and Ouellet/Marchenko/Jensen.

I think Holland has a chance to turn this offseason from a disappointing one into an okay one if he finds a way to move Kindl and at least one of Cleary and Andersson. If his next move is to waive Nestrasil or send Jurco down, then it is indeed a mishandling of talent.

He might not have blocked anyone, but if and when he gets in the lineup due to an injury or "Playing his ass off in practice" he will be a detriment to the team. Even as an extra forward he should not be on the roster. When he does suit up you don't think he will be paired with Datsyuk? We can't move Cleary if he doesn't want to go because he has a NTC. I'm not comfortable with any of those defenseman being in our bottom 3 but why not let some unproven people take their bumps and make their mistakes now and prepare them for the future. Kindl/Lashoff/Quincey will all make the same mistakes the "kids" will even though they have all played long enough to be considered veterans. All while taking up 7.375 million in capspace while MAYBE being marginally better than the kids.

 

[Flowah]

Cleary shouldn't have been signed but so far he hasn't blocked any kids this season.

Hasn't he blocked Ouellet? Not by virtue of taking a forward spot in the lineup, but a roster spot? If we had no Cleary, that'd be another roster spot and we could go 13/8

 

[davecrockburn]

Babs can pretty much say whatever he wants now because Holland has to try to keep him happy or risk losing him this offseason. I think Babs will thrive in this situation as he knows he has all the bargaining power and can use it to sway Holland because Holland needs to give him what he wants in order to re-sign him. I highly doubt Holland would be trading Kindl at this point if Babs didn't push him to bring up XO. I'm guessing that Babs would be more than happy to sign 1 year deals every year to keep this going as he has more "say" in the team than ever before - and I bet Holland wants to avoid that.

 

[sepster]

Neither? Fresh perspective, fresh start? Where's that option?

 

[kuick]

Neither? Fresh perspective, fresh start? Where's that option?

This is my choice as well. No disrespect to either of them, two of the best minds in hockey. It's just time to move on.

Ideally next season Babcock signs elsewhere and Holland moves to a different role with the team. Probably not happening though.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Yeah I would agree with neither as well, This team needs a new direction. It's just to bad the neither Nill or Yzerman are available.