You get to choose and you can only choose one: Mike Babcock or Ken Holland.

[The Zermanator]

Babcock. He's shown (through benching Cleary for example) an ability to change and adapt. He wants Kindl gone and Ouellet up. He's changing how he treats and uses young players.

Holland, on the other hand, has shown no such ability. He is making the same mistakes year after year, and it's costing this team. He was great once, and he still has some areas of real strength (drafting, development, etc.). However, in the present day, he seems to be an old dog who can't learn any new tricks.

Both were great. Babcock still is, Holland isn't. Plain and simple.

 

[odin1981]

Holland if he promises to sack his nhl scouting and replace them with people that can actually figure out who could actually fit into our system of play when we need 1 or 2 guys to fill in till our nhl best development system turns out the replacements. Blash will step in and do fine.

 

[The Geelee]

Ill take Babs, the guy who is still more then competent in his area of work

Holland is a shadow of his former self, still living in the old glory days

 

[Kronwalled55]

I have no faith in Holland being a good GM again.

I still believe Babcock knows how to coach a team to another Cup.

I could probably write a novel on this topic, but I think quoting your post will save me a lot of time.

I don't even think Holland scouts other team's pro talent. That's why we get all these retreads and "Michigan born guys." It's all he knows.

 

[Heaton]

Failure to use assets properly?

Oh, you mean like:

- playing Cleary and to a lesser extent Abdelkader in roles well above their ability

- Cleary-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

- blowing up the lines that ultimately won 4 games in a row to get you into the playoffs

- Cleary-Andersson-Bertuzzi with Tatar in the press box while you complain about team speed

- Smith's usage or lack thereof

- Legwand as a 4th line wing

- Weiss getting seemingly getting shafted

And on and on?

Look, neither of these guys are perfect, that's for certain. Holland himself has really lost with many of his personal decisions in recent years. But the organization structure is still fantastic. That doesn't happen overnight and that doesn't happen for most organizations.

And in the long term, organizational structure trumps a head coach.

My counter argument is quite simple, Babcock ****ed up all of those situations, but guess what? A GM is supposed to upgrade your team, Babcock hasn't made the best use, but since 2009 Holland has done nothing to upgrade this team in any way. He has not been proactive in securing roster spots for prospects. Every other GM does this. Hertl was a 19 year old kid who made a perennial playoff team in SJ. Chicago finds room even though they're a cup contender every year.

It's pretty simple, if Cleary doesn't help the team, don't sign him - Holland is every bit as culpable as Babcock is. And Babcock didn't promise him a 2nd contract, that's all on Holland.

And what is this organization structure? Good prospects that never play? Do you honestly think if this team was healthy last year that Holland would've brought up Nyquist or Sheahan or Jurco? Obviously that's an impossible question, but the notion that he 'knew' people would get injured so he decided to not make room for your best prospects is asinine. This team may have structure, but it has no direction.

So keep Holland, but we'll continue seeing the waiver eligibility countdown for virtually every prospect, including Mantha. Kindl won't be traded to make room for XO, it'll have to be an injury.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

I don't disagree that Holland hasn't marshaled his assets well, but I see too many clubs around the league who lack those assets entirely. While I think a number of guys could be brought up sooner, Holland has shown the ability to keep the guys who are worth something, and not losing good assets for nothing (Jarnkrok being one of the few possible exceptions).

If we still had Nill, or even Yzerman, sitting on the shelf waiting to be slid into the GM job it would be a harder choice for me. I'm not sure from where we would pull Holland's replacement right now, though.

My gut says get used to Tyler Wright.

 

[KJoe88]

Even though Kenny has frustrated me recently, I'd take him over Babs. My issue with Babs is his lines some times are so damn perplexing I actually want to NOT watch the games.

Holland has made some mistakes, but his drafting, player dev team, contracts, and past success keep me hopeful of him.

 

[Heaton]

Even though Kenny has frustrated me recently, I'd take him over Babs. My issue with Babs is his lines some times are so damn perplexing I actually want to NOT watch the games.

Holland has made some mistakes, but his drafting, player dev team, contracts, and past success keep me hopeful of him.

Which contracts?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'd take Holland. I think it's harder to find a good GM than a good coach. I have more faith in Holland continuing to rebuild the club, signing a new quality coach, and grooming his own successor than I do in rolling with Babs as coach and plucking another quality GM from somewhere else to do all of those things.

This sums up my feelings on this exactly and I have stated it before. This would have been my position before we even had Blashill chomping at the bit too.

Holland has to find the aggressive nature a little more frequently, but we are not going to fall apart with him at the helm. Some may not like the three years of non-bonafide contender. Reality is, it is going to happen.

Also amazed Babcock didn't take a hit when he was severely out coached twice in a row by his understudy (the last guy that seemed to have his ear) and Barry Trotz. Blame talent, but the game plan and in game decisions were atrocious in those series.

We will see what happens, the reality of the situation is Holland isn't going anywhere. He earned that right, he needs to tweak his methods, but he is still one of the better GMs in the game and hockey minds in the world.

With that said Babcock should be careful with where he goes. The Toronto angle for instance is a recipe for disaster and could really tarnish his image. I think he wants more control (look at what Roy got) and given some of his player role placements I would be very cautious. Also I am not sure how much of his current stance isn't to inflate coaches salaries, he has to feel that burden for the coaching fraternity. We will see, he is a great coach, is he the best coach for our team anymore? Will he be the best coach for the situation he goes to? I don't know that and I find coaching in general to be pretty overrated at times. Think about the opinion of Q, a guy this franchise embarrassed for well over a decade in the post-season and darn near knocked off when he was fully loaded and we were in the decline everyone is running around bemoaning.

 

[Heaton]

This sums up my feelings on this exactly and I have stated it before. This would have been my position before we even had Blashill chomping at the bit too.

Holland has to find the aggressive nature a little more frequently, but we are not going to fall apart with him at the helm. Some may not like the three years of non-bonafide contender. Reality is, it is going to happen.

Also amazed Babcock didn't take a hit when he was severely out coached twice in a row by his understudy (the last guy that seemed to have his ear) and Barry Trotz. Blame talent, but the game plan and in game decisions were atrocious in those series.

We will see what happens, the reality of the situation is Holland isn't going anywhere. He earned that right, he needs to tweak his methods, but he is still one of the better GMs in the game and hockey minds in the world.

With that said Babcock should be careful with where he goes. The Toronto angle for instance is a recipe for disaster and could really tarnish his image. I think wants more control and given some of his player role placements I would be very cautious. We will see, he is a great coach, is he the best coach for are team anymore? Will he be the best coach for the situation he goes to? I don't know that and I find coaching in general to be pretty overrated at times. Think about the opinion of Q, a guy this franchise embarrassed for well over a decade in the post-season and darn near knocked off when he was fully loaded and we were in the decline everyone is running around bemoaning.

Out of curiosity, when have we ever seen Holland be aggressive in the cap era? I can't think of any situation. My concern with Holland is that he is unwilling to be aggressive, so that means it will be almost impossible to get back to contender status.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ill take Babs, the guy who is still more then competent in his area of work

Holland is a shadow of his former self, still living in the old glory days

Have to ask outside of Team Canada fans, what is Babcock living off these days. If he wins a cup in Detroit he would be the longest coach in one city between them, Bowman actually holds that honor with the Wings. It is a pretty rare feat, one we have seen once in terms of a long gap between Cups from a coach in one city.

 

[Winger98]

Holland doesn't really use his assets as a strength though. There is zero reason to not upgrade the roster when you have more assets than potential spots. Does anyone really think we'll have a team with Marchenko, Sproul, XO and Backman on it? I'm not saying he needs to decide instantly, but GMs in this league have to be able to maximize their trade assets. Holland doesn't trade, period. So we're stuck in a state that shows really no signs of reaching a next level.

Can anyone sit here and tell me they're comfortable with the direction of this team regardless of Babcock's personnel decisions? So Holland is here next year and Babcock is gone. Just because Cleary leaves with him doesn't mean Mantha is on the team or more kids are promoted more frequently. Holland hoards players until they're supposed to be or past their peaks (22-24 years old). Why can other contenders find room for their waiver eligible players but Holland can't? I believe he still thinks he can stick a veteran (regardless of their ability) and 'teach' the kids something. It's not how to win, because this team would've been better off over the years incorporating more kids more often. That still isn't happening on purpose and that's my issue.

So to answer this question? I'd probably keep Babcock, when Babcock had more good players, his lines didn't look like this, so all of the joking about how if would stick grinders everywhere if he were GM is silly. His lines looked great when Holland gave him a great lineup.

You have to have two to tango on the trade front, though. We've all seen the rumored packages Holland has offered for various guys, and I think the majority of us wonder how those packages didn't get a trade done. The Jarnkrok trade got (deservedly) slammed around here, but was that all that worse than the rumored package of Sheahan, Jurco, & 2nd that got turned down by Calgary? And the persistent rumor with Vancouver was that they wanted four of our assets for Edler, though I don't recall seeing pieces legitimately rumored outside of Smith.

Holland has become a ridiculous hoarder, and I agree that it's hurt this organization in recent years. Still, Nyquist is a part of the club. So is Tatar. And Smith. etc. They might get up here late, but they get up here, and Holland invariably keeps the right players. And while they might be past their predicted scoring peaks, I'm not sure that could be argued as being past their top overall player peaks. I mean, Yzerman scored a ton in his early 20s, but he was a better player in his late 20s.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Out of curiosity, when have we ever seen Holland be aggressive in the cap era? I can't think of any situation. My concern with Holland is that he is unwilling to be aggressive, so that means it will be almost impossible to get back to contender status.

Said the other day on this board the next 12 months are big in terms of this.

Holland has actually done what he said he would do coming out of the big lockout. He built a stripped down minor system into the best it has been since he was the head of amateur scouting and rose to power in the organization.

Go watch the replays, we are not moving as many picks we will value our guys and then get value out of them. Now I get it, we have not got the value people want. We also are not a lottery team while rebuilding significantly throughout the roster.

What happened to the Bruins post Orr and Bourque? What happened to the Islanders post Potvin? Montreal probably did the best after Big Bird, but Roy played lights out to make that happen. Look at the Red Wings post Kelly. Losing a piece like Lidstrom and not immediately becoming something awful is actually fairly impressive. We are in a position to bounce back to true contender status within the next 12 months if the right things happen. Will they, I don't know. But Holland has been fundamental in our success. Ilitch, Holland and Devellano are at the core of this great run, he has earned the right to continue seeing this out and we are not far off what his plan was coming out of the lockout. Imagine if we had landed Suter?

In any event the next 12 months are big, he has some tough decisions, one of which appears to be at coach. I still value upper management a heck of a lot more than coaching. I also think we have a good potential coach in place, we don't have that on the management front at all, not that it would matter as his job is in zero danger.

I would point out Rafalski and Stuart were fairly aggressive moves. The Quincey one has not worked out but that had both aggression in terms of what should have made us an even heavier contender (we were in the President Trophy discussion when made) and offered flexibility going forward. It didn't work not all of them do. But we haven't really been in a position to make smart aggressive moves here for a little bit, I think we are entering that window again shortly, I am curious to see what he will do.

 

[Heaton]

Said the other day on this board the next 12 months are big in terms of this.

Holland has actually done what he said he would do coming out of the big lockout. He built a stripped down minor system into the best it has been since he was the head of amateur scouting and rose to power in the organization.

Go watch the replays, we are not moving as many picks we will value our guys and then get value out of them. Now I get it, we have not got the value people want. We also are not a lottery team while rebuilding significantly throughout the roster.

What happened to the Bruins post Orr and Bourque? What happened to the Islanders post Potvin? Montreal probably did the best after Big Bird, but Roy played lights out to make that happen. Look at the Red Wings post Kelly. Losing a piece like Lidstrom and not immediately becoming something awful is actually fairly impressive. We are in a position to bounce back to true contender status within the next 12 months if the right things happen. Will they, I don't know. But Holland has been fundamental in our success. Ilitch, Holland and Devellano are at the core of this great run, he has earned the right to continue seeing this out and we are not far off what his plan was coming out of the lockout. Imagine if we had landed Suter?

In any event the next 12 months are big, he has some tough decisions, one of which appears to be at coach. I still value upper management a heck of a lot more than coaching. I also think we have a good potential coach in place, we don't have that on the management front at all, not that it would matter as his job is in zero danger.

Landing Suter would've solved all of the problems. As for the 'tough decisions', Holland has never made a tough decision IMO, it's always been the easy one. It's easy to re-sign Cleary and send Nyquist to the minors. It's easy to re-sign Quincey and not trust your development system.

Besides Babcock not re-signing, which is out of Holland's control, what tough decisions will he make? Odds are Kindl's contract will run out and he'll sign somewhere else. Holland just lets the course run and hopes things fall into place.

 

[Frk It]

Heaton you are basically reading my mind on this topic. It's actually scaring me how you are typing exactly what I am thinking in response to these posts.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Eh. I voted Babs. Holland's bad moves outweigh his good moves since 2009.

 

[Goalie guy]

I chose Babs! He can coach the team till Blash is ready, And then be the GM!!!

 

[Datstromberg]

Its looking like Ken Holland has officially ran the best coach in hockey out of town. So frustrating considering how bad of a gm he has become. To me it looks like Kenny wants to be the star of the organization and thats too difficult when the coach is clearly smarter.

 

[Frk It]

Holland has to find the aggressive nature a little more frequently

"More frequently" would suggest that Holland has been aggressive at some point recently. He has not. He is the the exact opposite of aggressive.

Holland has never made a tough decision IMO, it's always been the easy one. It's easy to re-sign Cleary and send Nyquist to the minors. It's easy to re-sign Quincey and not trust your development system.

Exactly.

 

[Fugu]

Holland.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

"More frequently" would suggest that Holland has been aggressive at some point recently. He has not. He is the the exact opposite of aggressive.



Exactly.

Which is a part of being a GM too. He pursued Suter aggressively, he also pursued Niskanen aggressively, he pursued Jay-Bo too aggressively and lucked out. It didn't work out in some of these scenarios.

However, moves don't need to be made just to make them, they have to make sense. We aren't really in a position to make some of those moves. Though he deserves to be run through the ringer for this off-season and the re-signing of Cleary and Quincey.

Cleary as we all know has a great deal to do with the other guy in this debate. Quincey is played massive amounts by Babcock as well. Still I hate both moves, most disappointed I have been with Holland during his tenure. Still it is a fairly easy choice for me, especially with Blashill sitting there to take over on the coaching front.

It takes two to tango and this isn't EA sports NHL. The patient build has built the most young talent we have had since the early 90's and organizational depth. The next 12 months is critical in my opinion to us either surging forward or staying here for the next two or three years. However, who are we getting to replace him, what realistic (Nill and Yzerman both have extended) are we turning to?

 

[Winger98]

My gut says get used to Tyler Wright.

Him or Martin would be my guesses. Though I have a soft spot for Fischer.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Him or Martin would be my guesses. Though I have a soft spot for Fischer.

I really hope it is Fischer with Martin as the cap guy. I could see them doing the three-headed monster again with Holland being in the Devellano role and Martin and Fischer being the other two at the end of Holland's four year contract.

I like Jiri Fischer a lot, would be awesome if he could take the steps towards grooming for this role. That still remains years off though.

 

[Heaton]

Which is a part of being a GM too. He pursued Suter aggressively, he also pursued Niskanen aggressively, he pursued Jay-Bo too aggressively and lucked out. It didn't work out in some of these scenarios.

However, moves don't need to be made just to make them, they have to make sense. We aren't really in a position to make some of those moves. Though he deserves to be run through the ringer for this off-season and the re-signing of Cleary and Quincey.

Cleary as we all know has a great deal to do with the other guy in this debate. Quincey is played massive amounts by Babcock as well. Still I hate both moves, most disappointed I have been with Holland during his tenure. Still it is a fairly easy choice for me, especially with Blashill sitting there to take over on the coaching front.

It takes two to tango and this isn't EA sports NHL. The patient build has built the most young talent we have had since the early 90's and organizational depth. The next 12 months is critical in my opinion to us either surging forward or staying here for the next two or three years. However, who are we getting to replace him, what realistic (Nill and Yzerman both have extended) are we turning to?

Because his other options are Lashoff and Kindl.

Trades aside, my major beef is Holland not making room for the kids. Not making room for Smith earlier, for Ericsson earlier, for Nyquist and Helm and so on. Sure they're up now, but that's not the point. You incorporate your kids early so you know what you have early. Quite frankly all the talk about Sheahan and Howard and being 'surprised' by their success is embarassing from an elite drafting organization.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Because his other options are Lashoff and Kindl.

Trades aside, my major beef is Holland not making room for the kids. Not making room for Smith earlier, for Ericsson earlier, for Nyquist and Helm and so on. Sure they're up now, but that's not the point. You incorporate your kids early so you know what you have early. Quite frankly all the talk about Sheahan and Howard and being 'surprised' by their success is embarassing from an elite drafting organization.

Howard was a surprise, he was fairly unremarkable for most of his AHL tenure.

The guy most surprised by Sheahan was Babcock, who still doesn't use him in a pk role where he is maybe the best guy on the team. Nyquist, a guy who after one callup got the rare treatment of oversight and forced insertion into the lineup by Holland over Babcock. But on the Sheahan thing, I seem to remember when things were breaking bad post DUI, Holland was supportive in part because he was a good hockey player with a bright future. He is a guy he had nice things to say about when he wasn't scoring at ND and talked about the upside with often. The coach is the only one continuously saying how shocked he is by these kids pace and talent. All the while he has spent his last two off-seasons watching them play a ridiculous amount, you would think that impression would have resonated with him more.

Tootoo, I want a hard body checker with a righty shot - I hate him now
Sammy, I liked using him on the PP, big body righty shot - I hate him now
Bert, he is a big body we like him and he can play with talent - oh wait he can't
Smith, I want him, I want him bad - I don't know how to use him

This cuts the other way too. He wasn't bashful on some of these players. The only one he is winning big on is Weiss in terms of saying hey you are going to have to work more and fit in and he doesn't see it.

I am not overly enthused with Holland lately. But he is a bright guy, I don't see an ideal replacement or upgrade. I don't even mind if Babcock extends, but I am hardly going to cry in my beer if he does not, given what we have in Blashill in my opinion.

These really are first world problems. Nobody stays elite forever, we haven't even fallen that far and look to be climbing back out of it, relax let it play out, the next 12 months are very big to just how quickly we climb the latter.