Proposal: WSH - COL

[Avsfan1921]

1: Regarding Price, no team would have taken him for free. His issues and contract made him untradable.

2: Regarding the former players you mentioned, those kind of issues were swept under the rug. It was a different time than it is now. Social media, wokeness etc. Times have changed.

3: The players that people takes chances on are ones that are given 1 x year contracts as a "look see" (e.g. Drouin). Not ones that have 3 years or longer with a high caphit. Too risky.

1: It was well recognized that as soon as he signed that contract, he would be a very hard asset to move should the need arise. This was the reason he was regarded as unmovable by most. If you were to pole people on what made price “unmovable” during his last contract, his contract would win by a landslide. Not even close.

2: I will concede that it is a different time for sure. However if these incidents were swept under the rug at all, it definitely wasn’t for the duration of their careers. They all still managed to carry on the nhl after their mistakes went public.

3: I will also concede that the term on Girards contract could be a concern should he continue to have issues with alcoholism. Currently it boils down to a player coming forward needing, and asking for help. I’ve no doubt there are many players in his situation, but they haven’t come forward to ask for help. Which do you see as more responsible and likely to work it out, those that do or don’t come forward? If he enter the program again or has trouble behind the scenes, I would agree that due to his limited ability and size of cap hit he would be worth considerably less or at the very least, very hard to move. We are not at that point yet imo. Players don’t get punted to the moon for entering the players assistance program.

Would you do Girard for Kadri straight across?

If the Avs could fit it under the cap, absolutely and would add too. Unfortunately they can’t afford the contract and trying to make it work and still be a net positive trade for both teams is likely undoable. IMO, Kadri is the superior player and is a bigger need as a centre for the Avs and I don’t think you’d find many Avs fans that would disagree.

 

[Double Dion]

1: It was well recognized that as soon as he signed that contract, he would be a very hard asset to move should the need arise. This was the reason he was regarded as unmovable by most. If you were to pole people on what made price “unmovable” during his last contract, his contract would win by a landslide. Not even close.

2: I will concede that it is a different time for sure. However if these incidents were swept under the rug at all, it definitely wasn’t for the duration of their careers. They all still managed to carry on the nhl after their mistakes went public.

3: I will also concede that the term on Girards contract could be a concern should he continue to have issues with alcoholism. Currently it boils down to a player coming forward needing, and asking for help. I’ve no doubt there are many players in his situation, but they haven’t come forward to ask for help. Which do you see as more responsible and likely to work it out, those that do or don’t come forward? If he enter the program again or has trouble behind the scenes, I would agree that due to his limited ability and size of cap hit he would be worth considerably less or at the very least, very hard to move. We are not at that point yet imo. Players don’t get punted to the moon for entering the players assistance program.


If the Avs could fit it under the cap, absolutely and would add too. Unfortunately they can’t afford the contract and trying to make it work and still be a net positive trade for both teams is likely undoable. IMO, Kadri is the superior player and is a bigger need as a centre for the Avs and I don’t think you’d find many Avs fans that would disagree.

Would you do Girard, Johansen and a 1st OR 2nd and Behrens for Kadri?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

1: It was well recognized that as soon as he signed that contract, he would be a very hard asset to move should the need arise. This was the reason he was regarded as unmovable by most. If you were to pole people on what made price “unmovable” during his last contract, his contract would win by a landslide. Not even close.

2: I will concede that it is a different time for sure. However if these incidents were swept under the rug at all, it definitely wasn’t for the duration of their careers. They all still managed to carry on the nhl after their mistakes went public.

3: I will also concede that the term on Girards contract could be a concern should he continue to have issues with alcoholism. Currently it boils down to a player coming forward needing, and asking for help. I’ve no doubt there are many players in his situation, but they haven’t come forward to ask for help. Which do you see as more responsible and likely to work it out, those that do or don’t come forward? If he enter the program again or has trouble behind the scenes, I would agree that due to his limited ability and size of cap hit he would be worth considerably less or at the very least, very hard to move. We are not at that point yet imo. Players don’t get punted to the moon for entering the players assistance program.

1. Nothing to debate there.

2. It was much easier to sweep issues under the rug in those days. (lack of social media, camera phone technology etc. as well as lack of wokeness). Public mistakes didn't get propagated and "shamed" the way the do in these times. As a society, we are high & mighty compared to the past. Teams have codes of conduct - something they never had in the past (see Detroit & Probert). Teams rely on Ad revenue and as such need to uphold a standard befitting of their clients / sponsors.

3. Players that hide issues then have public flareups often get punted (see Corey Perry) especially if they do not enter assistance, or blacklisted (Voynov, Lucic) if the issue is serious enough. Players that disclose issues and enter assistance programs get a second chance but are a documented risk.

Bottom line: Girard and Nikushin have high AAVs and long term. They are high risk players due to their very serious (and public) issues. Teams will not bury their head's in the sand. Girard in particular has other key concerns with his game that compounds his tradability.

Not trying to crap on Avs players. This is a sensitive issue and a worthy discussion. When including Girard / Nikushkin in trades, these are issues that will be given serious consideration by GMs.

 

[bleuetbio]

Like Kadri but we would have give him that money if we could. We are somewhere else

 

[Avsfan1921]

Would you do Girard, Johansen and a 1st OR 2nd and Behrens for Kadri?

From a pure talent/fit perspective, absolutely to either of the offers. I don’t know where that would leave us for cap hit in the future however so from a fans cap management side I could potentially not be so agreeable.

I think you’ll find 2 sets of Avs fans currently: Ones that are ok with going all in and pushing as hard as we can for the next couple years. And I’d think anyone in this camp would do this trade and not blink.

And then there’s those that think a more sustained approach and think the Avs could do a small retool in a few years giving them more darts at the dartboard so to speak. They are worried about adding big salary when we have Rantanens’ contract is up and keeping depth.

Personally, I’d like them to be aggressive for certain types of players. Those that can help for the medium term, no matter the pieces it takes.

 

[Avsfan1921]

1. Nothing to debate there.

2. It was much easier to sweep issues under the rug in those days. (lack of social media, camera phone technology etc. as well as lack of wokeness). Public mistakes didn't get propagated and "shamed" the way the do in these times. As a society, we are high & mighty compared to the past. Teams have codes of conduct - something they never had in the past (see Detroit & Probert). Teams rely on Ad revenue and as such need to uphold a standard befitting of their clients / sponsors.

3. Players that hide issues then have public flareups often get punted (see Corey Perry) especially if they do not enter assistance, or blacklisted (Voynov, Lucic) if the issue is serious enough. Players that disclose issues and enter assistance programs get a second chance but are a documented risk.

Bottom line: Girard and Nikushin have high AAVs and long term. They are high risk players due to their very serious (and public) issues. Teams will not bury their head's in the sand. Girard in particular has other key concerns with his game that compounds his tradability.

Not trying to crap on Avs players. This is a sensitive issue and a worthy discussion. When including Girard / Nikushkin in trades, these are issues that will be given serious consideration by GMs.

It is a worthy discussion and it’s nice to have a respectful conversation on it with other fans. In no way do I take offense for your viewpoint and Avs player are valid examples in this. Maybe we create a thread posing the question of how much entering the program leads to player valuations. We are clearly at different spectrums I believe but that’s not to say it’s been a bad conversation at all. I’d be quite interested if n a general viewpoint on the topic honestly.

 

[Double Dion]

From a pure talent/fit perspective, absolutely to either of the offers. I don’t know where that would leave us for cap hit in the future however so from a fans cap management side I could potentially not be so agreeable.

I think you’ll find 2 sets of Avs fans currently: Ones that are ok with going all in and pushing as hard as we can for the next couple years. And I’d think anyone in this camp would do this trade and not blink.

And then there’s those that think a more sustained approach and think the Avs could do a small retool in a few years giving them more darts at the dartboard so to speak. They are worried about adding big salary when we have Rantanens’ contract is up and keeping depth.

Personally, I’d like them to be aggressive for certain types of players. Those that can help for the medium term, no matter the pieces it takes.

It's a deal I'd do. A good 2nd line C who is 33 does nothing for us. Best case scenario is we are 3 years away. Worst case is 7. Kadri doesn't fit our timeline.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

It is a worthy discussion and it’s nice to have a respectful conversation on it with other fans. In no way do I take offense for your viewpoint and Avs player are valid examples in this. Maybe we create a thread posing the question of how much entering the program leads to player valuations. We are clearly at different spectrums I believe but that’s not to say it’s been a bad conversation at all. I’d be quite interested if n a general viewpoint on the topic honestly.

If i were to make an argument in your favor, it would surround Logan Mailloux, who was caught and prosecuted on a serious criminal offense as a minor. The difference with Logan is that he was not an NHL player at the time nor was he of legal age. He seems to have been given a second chance.

However, the 5 x Canadian junior players are likely blacklisted no matter the outcome of their issue.

To me, trading Girard will be a challenge that is compounded by his documented issues. Ditto Nikushkin (but then again why woudl you trade him?).

 

[Avsfan1921]

It's a deal I'd do. A good 2nd line C who is 33 does nothing for us. Best case scenario is we are 3 years away. Worst case is 7. Kadri doesn't fit our timeline.

As an outsider, I’d agree that the fit doesn’t seem to be there for the direction of the flames unfortunately. I haven’t watched Naz with the flames much but I know he’d slide back into his previous role her quite fluidly for the next couple years at minimum.

What I do know is this deal is much more palatable that the op as an Avs fan.

 

[Double Dion]

If i were to make an argument in your favor, it would surround Logan Mailloux, who was caught and prosecuted on a serious criminal offense as a minor. The difference with Logan is that he was not an NHL player at the time nor was he of legal age. He seems to have been given a second chance.

However, the 5 x Canadian junior players are likely blacklisted no matter the outcome of their issue.

To me, trading Girard will be a challenge that is compounded by his documented issues. Ditto Nikushkin (but then again why woudl you trade him?).

You're forgetting that Edmonton exists. I'd be surprised if they don't go after some of these players. They have the guy who covered multiple offenses in their front office. They signed Kane. They signed Perry. Their owner has had multiple allegations around him as well.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

You're forgetting that Edmonton exists. I'd be surprised if they don't go after some of these players. They have the guy who covered multiple offenses in their front office. They signed Kane. They signed Perry. Their owner has had multiple allegations around him as well.

And i actually agree with you there. But i don't think this is the Norm. Edmonton's very shady dealings and notorious low standards is not representative of the broader NHL.

 

[Double Dion]

As an outsider, I’d agree that the fit doesn’t seem to be there for the direction of the flames unfortunately. I haven’t watched Naz with the flames much but I know he’d slide back into his previous role her quite fluidly for the next couple years at minimum.

What I do know is this deal is much more palatable that the op as an Avs fan.

He's been good this year. 2nd half of last season was very rough. I think his defensive work is overstated. I don't see him above average in that regard. Granted, in Calgary with Backlund taking all the tough matchups and Lindholm the secondary ones he hasn't had to be.

He's still a good skater and his offensive game/play driving hasn't deteriorated at all. His defensive work certainly hasn't been where is once was though.

 

[Avsfan1921]

If i were to make an argument in your favor, it would surround Logan Mailloux, who was caught and prosecuted on a serious criminal offense as a minor. The difference with Logan is that he was not an NHL player at the time nor was he of legal age. He seems to have been given a second chance.

However, the 5 x Canadian junior players are likely blacklisted no matter the outcome of their issue.

To me, trading Girard will be a challenge that is compounded by his documented issues. Ditto Nikushkin (but then again why woudl you trade him?).

I agree that teams shy away from major allegations. I’d also add that organization that have recent issues in these areas will be more wary due to having recent accusations.
Corey Perry and Mike Babcock are good examples here. Perry was fine as it was a perceived minor allegation but Chicago cut ties immediately due to their previous organizational allegations. Meanwhile Babcock was also given no leeway due to his previous reputation…. Perry is also another example of a player finding his feet immediately after facing personal adversity.

Girards issue is enough to warrant a flag but not to tank his value. Val is such a beast that his red flags could be overlooked due to the value he provides relative to his contract but I doubt you’ll see Chicago having any interest. Again, imo, it all relative to the allegations but Girards is not a major enough instance to shy most teams away.

Edit: I’d even go so far to say that more teams would be wary of his size that his enrolment in to the assistance program

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I agree that teams shy away from major allegations. I’d also add that organization that have recent issues in these areas will be more wary due to having recent accusations.
Corey Perry and Mike Babcock are good examples here. Perry was fine as it was a perceived minor allegation but Chicago cut ties immediately due to their previous organizational allegations. Meanwhile Babcock was also given no leeway due to his previous reputation…. Perry is also another example of a player finding his feet immediately after facing personal adversity.

Girards issue is enough to warrant a flag but not to tank his value. Val is such a beast that his red flags could be overlooked due to the value he provides relative to his contract but I doubt you’ll see Chicago having any interest. Again, imo, it all relative to the allegations but Girards is not a major enough instance to shy most teams away.

The issue with Girard is not the potential stain on the receiving organization (there wouldn't be at all), but rather the high potential for re-lapse and compounding issues (depression and other). Alcoholism is a very serious and difficult challenge for individuals to overcome. Any team looking to take him on will be very wary.

 

[Avsfan1921]

The issue with Girard is not the potential stain on the receiving organization (there wouldn't be at all), but rather the high potential for re-lapse and compounding issues (depression and other). Alcoholism is a very serious and difficult challenge for individuals to overcome. Any team looking to take him on will be very wary.

It is a serious challenge for him for sure. But professional organizations employ players with personal demons of all kinds every day. We are in a new era where everyone is scrutinized but as I said, I don’t believe that this instance is enough to tank his value, or even alter it significantly.

My main beliefs regarding Girards circumstance are as follows:

- the type of blemish would not deter a team from trading for him. Nor will it stop the Avs from getting a relative same value asset back.

- he is a quality hockey player getting payed slightly above his worth. In saying this he is not a negative value player and is a player that could be traded in a “hockey trade” and not viewed as a dump.

- Imo, his size and ability to take punishment is more of a concern to potential suitors than either his contract or his recent entry into the program.


We likely won’t agree on some of these topics but that’s ok.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

It is a serious challenge for him for sure. But professional organizations employ players with personal demons of all kinds every day. We are in a new era where everyone is scrutinized but as I said, I don’t believe that this instance is enough to tank his value, or even alter it significantly.

My main beliefs regarding Girards circumstance are as follows:

- the type of blemish would not deter a team from trading for him. Nor will it stop the Avs from getting a relative same value asset back.

- he is a quality hockey player getting payed slightly above his worth. In saying this he is not a negative value player and is a player that could be traded in a “hockey trade” and not viewed as a dump.

- Imo, his size and ability to take punishment is more of a concern to potential suitors than either his contract or his recent entry into the program.


We likely won’t agree on some of these topics but that’s ok.

I think his issues has more impact in a trade than you are considering. But, time will tell. I don't think he can or will be traded for at least a year (with a clean bill of health).

 

[John Mandalorian]

Girard for Kuznetsov + 1 mil retention

I think Kuz can still play he's just being lazy cause he wants out. This is the rehab target the avs should've went after in the offseason instead of Ryjo but I guess Kuz was more expensive cause he was still putting up 55 points and ppg seasons before that and WSH wouldn't retain.

OK. Nevermind then.

 

[Hasbro]

According to Washington fans Kuzy has negative value. No way we’re trading Girard if that’s the case

What's his street value?

 

[Bone Breaker]

fixing the proposal for the OP

Byram + RyJo for Lapierre + Mantha + Stevensson

 

[Roshi]

fixing the proposal for the OP

Byram + RyJo for Lapierre + Mantha + Stevensson

This is interesting.

 

[Pigskin]

This is interesting.

a year ago it was, I don't think it is now

We are finally about to get something of value for Mantha, and Stevensson has progressed very nicely

Despite thinking Lapierre is not going to amount to much, I'm saying no

 

[AslanRH]

Nothing in there (including dumping RyJo) convinces me to move Byram personally, but I don't think the value is unbalanced.

 

[PowerMac]

All part of the plan, once Kuz gets back he's probably going to productive again.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

fixing the proposal for the OP

Byram + RyJo for Lapierre + Mantha + Stevensson

I’d be surprised if the Caps gave up Clay Stevenson that easily. Crushing the AHL right now….

All part of the plan, once Kuz gets back he's probably going to productive again.

In the KHL lol….

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

fixing the proposal for the OP

Byram + RyJo for Lapierre + Mantha + Stevensson

It's tough on Washington from a cap perspective. Mantha's cap hit is gone after the season (and he'll return something this year at the TDL) and Lapierre will be a cheap full-time player in DC next season while RyJo will be an $8M anchor which would be less than ideal given the Caps still have Backstrom and Kuznetsov under contract next year as well.

Stevenson looks like Washington's goalie of the future so it'd be tough to give him up. That, and Byram's injury history makes me nervous. I'd probably say no but it's a good proposal.