Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[Preisst*]

Half of our fans hate our players more than the main board posters do. So there's that.

LOL so true and no way I could/would argue that point.

 

[4evaBlue]

I think the value is there; Bergeron is a much more complete player, and Kessel is a much more dynamic player. And I think if you posted this on the Bruins board the poll would be just as lopsided in the other direction.

I think that poll would be equally lopsided regardless of who the Bruins had to give up. It could be a Kessel for Kelly proposal, and we'd find out all of a sudden, how valuable Chris Kelly really is to the team/fans, etc.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Their approach is to play their better players less?

Bozak > Grabovski?

 

[Gobias Industries]

I think that poll would be equally lopsided regardless of who the Bruins had to give up. It could be a Kessel for Kelly proposal, and we'd find out all of a sudden, how valuable Chris Kelly really is to the team/fans, etc.

I don't think you'd get the same results with Kelly, but you're right to an extent with the former.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Thank you, I will take Bergeron over Kessel in a heartbeat. I do disagree with your claim that Bergeron is a 2nd line centre though. In my opinion he is a first liner. And while I am happy, as a Leaf fan, at the season that Kessel had scoring wise last year I was more impressed with the fact the he actually tried to backcheck and play a more complete game then coming in 6th in scoring.

They are both part of the whole and I think that what Bergeron brings to the table is more valuable than what Kessel does.

As for the trashing that Kessel gets, have you ever stopped to think that he deserves it?

btw - fwiw - I think that Bergeron could play the role that Kessel does if he so decided to play that style of hockey [of course he wouldn't cuz he has more depth than that] but do you for even a second think Kessel could do what Bergeron does?

No, he certainly doesn't deserve it. He's criminally underrated.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

I do. The Leafs finished what...last in GA....last in penalty killing. Kessel for all the good he does contributes to that.

Evidently thats our problem.

Bergeron helps fix both of those glaring issues.

Can Begeron play in goal? Because that's clearly our problem in terms of GA. I can't believe you think adding Bergeron fixes all that. You'll give up a younger, healthier and more talented player for a guy who really won't fix the problem at all.

The Leafs need better goaltending and a better overall defensive system. That's will fix the GA numbers. Trading the league's 6th highest scorer for Bergeron will not be the answer you seem to think it is.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Put Kessel in front of Thomas/Rask and Bergeron in front of Reimer/Gus, and I'd guess Kessel's team gives up fewer goals.

This.

Does anyone find it interesting when Kessel was in Boston he was +23 and no one whined about his terrible defense?

Let's see Bergeron win a Selke on this Leafs team and have anywhere near the same +/-. Not happening.

 

[Era of Sanity]

This.

Does anyone find it interesting when Kessel was in Boston he was +23 and no one whined about his terrible defense?

Let's see Bergeron win a Selke on this Leafs team and have anywhere near the same +/-. Not happening.

The numbers suggest that it isn't all the team. Bergeron led his team in +/-, Kessel not so much.

I can understand why Leaf fans would want to keep Kessel actually as he is clearly a better scorer and more dynamic but I am sorry it is ridiculous to not acknowledge that Bergeron is significantly better than Kessel defensively.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

The numbers suggest that it isn't all the team. Bergeron led his team in +/-, Kessel not so much.

I can understand why Leaf fans would want to keep Kessel actually as he is clearly a better scorer and more dynamic but I am sorry it is ridiculous to not acknowledge that Bergeron is significantly better than Kessel defensively.

Who has done that in this thread?

 

[Era of Sanity]

Who has done that in this thread?

Well I have read things like Bergeron is soft and not good in the corners and a 3rd line center. Generally posters are inferring that his defensive success is based on the team and crediting Thomas and Chara for it. Bergeron is a significant asset for his defensive play which is getting little acknowledgement in this thread imo.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Well I have read things like Bergeron is soft and not good in the corners and a 3rd line center. Generally posters are inferring that his defensive success is based on the team and crediting Thomas and Chara for it. Bergeron is a significant asset for his defensive play which is getting little acknowledgement in this thread imo.

Bottom line, no one in this thread claimed Kessel was as good or better than Bergeron defensively. And I don't recall anyone claiming he's a 3rd line centre at all.

 

[Era of Sanity]

What's so funny?

I've been told a million times on these boards by Bruin fans and Kessel haters that Seguin is Boston's #1 center (even though he doesn't play center). Krejci is the 2nd line center which means Bergeron must slot in as the 3rd. Unless you consider him your 4th line center. Personally I think he's a little better than a 4th liner.

Bergeron for Kessel?

Why would the Leafs do this? They already have several 3rd line centers.

As for the comparison, of course nobody claimed that Kessel was as good or better than a reigning Selke winner defensively as that would be completely silly. What I am saying is it is ridiculous to not acknowledge that Bergeron is significantly better than Kessel defensively in a thread that is measuring their trade values and people aren't saying that either.

 

[Kegs]

I think that poll would be equally lopsided regardless of who the Bruins had to give up. It could be a Kessel for Kelly proposal, and we'd find out all of a sudden, how valuable Chris Kelly really is to the team/fans, etc.

negative.... only an idiot wouldnt trade kelly for kessel.

 

[charliolemieux]

negative.... only an idiot wouldnt trade kelly for kessel.

But KElly provides a more physical and defensive presence. That has to be worth more than an elite scorer.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

This.

Does anyone find it interesting when Kessel was in Boston he was +23 and no one whined about his terrible defense?

Let's see Bergeron win a Selke on this Leafs team and have anywhere near the same +/-. Not happening.

Aren't you forgetting his coach?

But you're right, his coach didn't "whine".

He simply put him in the press box or gave him limited ice time as a direct consequence of his defensive liabilities.

 

[Bomber0104]

Can Begeron play in goal? Because that's clearly our problem in terms of GA. I can't believe you think adding Bergeron fixes all that. You'll give up a younger, healthier and more talented player for a guy who really won't fix the problem at all.

The Leafs need better goaltending and a better overall defensive system. That's will fix the GA numbers. Trading the league's 6th highest scorer for Bergeron will not be the answer you seem to think it is.

Not at all actually. The Leafs suck defensively and I can't see how you can pin it on the goalies even in the slightest shape or form. They gave up the most goals in the league, were almost top in shots against, and had the worst penalty kill in the league. I'll bet you anything Monster puts up way better numbers on Detroit next year. Hmmm...kind of like how Jiggy did in Colorado a good defensive squad?

You'd have to be in utter denial to think the Leafs are a goalie away from fixing their issues. The Leafs players are the same and no amount of Randy Carlyle is going to change how soft and weak the team is to play against. How do you think Kessel is going to like Randy Caryle? Probably will hate him more than he did Julien is my thinking.

 

[Bomber0104]

Maybe a better coach will improve the defense without trading Kessel, ya think?

No if anything I can see Kessel demanding out of Toronto after Carlyle instructs him to forecheck and check people...

Thats the kind of fortune the Leafs have.

The players wont all the sudden just decide to play defence with a new coach. They tried to with Wilson but couldn't because they are small weak and timid.

 

[Bomber0104]

It's hard to take seriously the player analysis of someone who felt that Matt Stajan is better than Patrice Bergeron or that Bozak would outscore every Bruins center a couple of seasons ago.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=757159&highlight=matt+stajan

Ouch.

Fast forward into the future and the Bruins went on to win the cup and Bergeron is a frequent candidate for Selke while Matt Stajan is trying to get icetime.

Funny thread.

SO maybe, just maybe, Leafs fans are over-rating Kessel and under-rating Bergeron just like the zeke guy did there?

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Not at all actually. The Leafs suck defensively and I can't see how you can pin it on the goalies even in the slightest shape or form. They gave up the most goals in the league, were almost top in shots against, and had the worst penalty kill in the league. I'll bet you anything Monster puts up way better numbers on Detroit next year. Hmmm...kind of like how Jiggy did in Colorado a good defensive squad?

You'd have to be in utter denial to think the Leafs are a goalie away from fixing their issues. The Leafs players are the same and no amount of Randy Carlyle is going to change how soft and weak the team is to play against. How do you think Kessel is going to like Randy Caryle? Probably will hate him more than he did Julien is my thinking.

What? They've been 30th in goaltending since the lockout.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Aren't you forgetting his coach?

But you're right, his coach didn't "whine".

He simply put him in the press box or gave him limited ice time as a direct consequence of his defensive liabilities.

For 4 games...

 

[PB37]

Can Begeron play in goal?

 

[Bomber0104]

Priceless.

 

[Bomber0104]

What? They've been 30th in goaltending since the lockout.

Why did Jiggy do better after he left?

Explain that please.

Would you like to bet that Monster does better too?

 

[4evaBlue]

Bozak > Grabovski?

And IMO, he is. Grabo is a better scorer, but Bozak is much more versatile. He's better at faceoffs, on defense, special teams, he has more chemistry with teammates (doesn't matter who he plays with), is grittier, and he's also a much better playmaker.

So ironically, you may actually be right. It's intangibles that place Bozak above Grabo in my eyes, just like they place Bergeron over Krejci in yours.

 

[Bomber0104]

And IMO, he is. Grabo is a better scorer, but Bozak is much more versatile. He's better at faceoffs, on defense, special teams, he has more chemistry with teammates (doesn't matter who he plays with), is grittier, and he's also a much better playmaker.

So ironically, you may actually be right. It's intangibles that place Bozak above Grabo in my eyes, just like they place Bergeron over Krejci in yours.

I think Bozak would be a better checking center than Grabovski. Offensively I think Grabovski is better but not by much.

Not sure if this paints a good picture for Torontos center situation so again, Bergeron would be great here.

Id give up Gardiner and then some for him easily since no way Boston would take Kessel,