Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[Bomber0104]

Gardiner was the starting point for most of the big names Burke inquired about from what I understand.

No wonder he hasn't been able to bring in a #1 center. How do you trade the most exciting young D-man since Iafrate(ok maybe Kaberle)?

It has to be a very specific player.

Gardiner + for Seguin.

Gardiner + for Tavares

Gardiner + for Malkin * Serious +

Not going to move a player like that for something that isn't special.

Yes but you see it's the very fact that Gardiner isnt that special that is the reason that you get something that also isnt that special back.

For example Gardiner is in no way shape or form good enough to net any of those players without Kessel being included.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Yes but you see it's the very fact that Gardiner isnt that special that is the reason that you get something that also isnt that special back.

For example Gardiner is in no way shape or form good enough to net any of those players without Kessel being included.

Is it because THN told you so?

 

[Bomber0104]

You should tell that to all the past Cup winners.

You wont find many pure offensive dmen occupying large minutes on a cup winner let alone 2.

 

[charliolemieux]

Gardiner's value will most likely keep rising. Trading him away so early would be a big mistake, IMO. I don't think we'll need (or be able to afford in the long run) the services of both Gardiner, and Reilly, but I'd like to see how Reilly adjusts to the big league before making a decision on Jake.

In a perfect world the LEafs split the two of them up at even strength and play them together on the PP.


That could mean for 50min a game one or both would be on the ice. I like that.


Personally I think Rielly is a step ahead of Gardiner.

IF everything else is roughly the same, Rielly has dangles that Gards just doesn't have.

 

[Bomber0104]

Is it because THN told you so?

Bergeron for Gardiner is a great deal and opens doors to get more defensive minded players playing on Torontos blue line.

I dont think Toronto needs to handicap itself by lending huge minutes to defence who dont really play defence all that well.

 

[The Blue Devil]

You wont find many pure offensive dmen occupying large minutes on a cup winner let alone 2.

Yeah, you've clearly never seen any of them play.

 

[Bomber0104]

In a perfect world the LEafs split the two of them up at even strength and play them together on the PP.


That could mean for 50min a game one or both would be on the ice. I like that.


Personally I think Rielly is a step ahead of Gardiner.

IF everything else is roughly the same, Rielly has dangles that Gards just doesn't have.

And skating ability too. As I've already touched on. Rielly is fast. Not a glider. He's agile and can get it to 5th gear.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Bergeron for Gardiner is a great deal and opens doors to get more defensive minded players playing on Torontos blue line.

I dont think Toronto needs to handicap itself by lending huge minutes to defence who dont really play defence all that well.

So getting rid of our top defensive prospects makes our defence better?

 

[Bomber0104]

Yeah, you've clearly never seen any of them play.

Gardiner is a very soft defender. As is Rielly.

Cant have both. Just one.

I say Gardiner can hit the road (and land us that center or goaler while his value is high)

 

[Bomber0104]

So getting rid of our top defensive prospects makes our defence better?

DEFENCE as in the ability to keep the puck out of our net. Gardiner is weak.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Gardiner is a very soft defender. As is Rielly.

Cant have both. Just one.

I say Gardiner can hit the road (and land us that center or goaler while his value is high)

As I said, clearly have never seen any of them play.

 

[Hanta Yo]

DEFENCE as in the ability to keep the puck out of our net. Gardiner is weak.

I agree, rookies don't improve in any facets of their game.

 

[Bomber0104]

As I said, clearly have never seen any of them play.

Ive seen Jake play nearly every game of last year and many of the Marlies games so far.

Ive seen Rielly play about a half dozen times. Very high on him.

 

[Bomber0104]

I agree, rookies don't improve in any facets of their game.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Personally, I think we should start fixing up our real problems rather than hoping two players with the same style can fit on to the blue line.

Rielly is our future powerplay guy and puck mover. Not Jake.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Personally, I think we should start fixing up our real problems rather than hoping two players with the same style can fit on to the blue line.

Rielly is our future powerplay guy and puck mover. Not Jake.

Because there's only 1 PP unit?

 

[charliolemieux]

Because there's only 1 PP unit?

And having two puck moving offensive d-men like Zubov and Leetch on the PP is just a bad Idea.

Oh, wait....

 

[kihei]

I like Bergeron, but bad, bad idea.

 

[4evaBlue]

In a perfect world the LEafs split the two of them up at even strength and play them together on the PP.


That could mean for 50min a game one or both would be on the ice. I like that.


Personally I think Rielly is a step ahead of Gardiner.

IF everything else is roughly the same, Rielly has dangles that Gards just doesn't have.

Phaenuf, Reilly, and Gardiner all need a more defensive partner, so ideally they'd all be on different pairings. I don't think we'll be able to afford Gards as a 3rd pairing defensemen in the long run, nor is it fair to him to limit his icetime.

Unless they get rid of Phaneuf, which would make the already soft blue line even softer.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Gardiner is a very soft defender. As is Rielly.

Cant have both. Just one.

I say Gardiner can hit the road (and land us that center or goaler while his value is high)

So you've given up on them already and think they won't improve? Rielly is a teenager.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Reimer was simply on a hot streak. Unsustainable.

THe simple fact is that Jiggy was subpar in Toronto even when healthy and then played well behind a defensive team.

I cant even believe this is an argument. The Leafs dont have bad defence? Sheeeeeesh

BTW, just to expand on this, Reimer had more starts in 2010'-11 than Giggy did:

James Reimer 37 35 2080 2.60 20 10 5 3 1134 90 .921 0 1 2
Jean-Sebastien Giguere 33 26 1633 2.87 11 11 4 0 777 78 .900 0 0 4


Reimer on the exact same team, playing in the exact same horrible Ron Wilson system had such better stats in every category than Giggy did.

So, no, Giggy playing better in Colorado isn't "proof" of anything. The guy struggled with groin injuries during his time on the Leafs.

 

[Pi]

Gardiner is a very soft defender. As is Rielly.

Cant have both. Just one.

I say Gardiner can hit the road (and land us that center or goaler while his value is high)

ERIK Karlsson is a frickin' soft defender. That guy just won the Norris Trophy...something that "tough" Mr. Shea Weber and Chara couldn't win against him.

Toughness is TOO overrated. SKILL is all that matters.

You have skill, you are a difference maker.

Enforcers are tough as hell, I don't see them winning Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe's.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

ERIK Karlsson is a frickin' soft defender. That guy just won the Norris Trophy...something that "tough" Mr. Shea Weber and Chara couldn't win against him.

Toughness is TOO overrated. SKILL is all that matters.

You have skill, you are a difference maker.

Enforcers are tough as hell, I don't see them winning Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe's.

Bingo. As Canadians, we love to pump up tough, physical play. But really, it matters little.

Erik Karlsson won so many games this season for Ottawa with his fantastic skill. They were supposed to be a lottery team and made the playoffs instead.

And people can go on and on about Dougie Hamilton being bigger and "Tougher" than Morgan Rielly. You know what? Rielly easily is more talented than Hamilton.

That's why trading one of the league's best snipers, who is younger and healthier, for Bergeron is insane. Skill is where it's at.

What are the Leafs suppposed to do? Build around Bergeron? LOL. What are the haters going to say? That Bergeron won a cup in Boston? Tim Thomas is the reason they have that cup, not Bergeron. There's no Chara, Thomas in Toronto.

 

[Kaoz*]

from that same article:

Keith Jones said that, I assign more importance to what the coach of the Bruins says because... well... he's relevant. Jones isn't.

or maybe I can search out a Julien compliment for Krecji more recent than that Bergy comment....

http://bostonsportsdesk.wordpress.com/tag/david-krejci/

First, in the article I quoted it wasn't a simple compliment, it was Julien saying he was the most important forward on the Bruins.

Second, you realize the time frame he's discussing in regard to Krejci was Begeron's first year back from a serious serious concussion right? And Savard was trying to come back from his as well. Of course Krejci was the best center Boston had at the time, he was the last one standing.

None of this is touching on the Bergeron vs Kessel debate mind you. I won't weigh in on it because honestly, both players are great in their own rights... and it's simply a matter of personal preference. Value wise though I'd think it would be pretty close to even steven but as a Bruin fan its not a deal I'd make. As Leaf fans I'm sure quite a few wouldn't do it either.

 

[Gobias Industries]

ERIK Karlsson is a frickin' soft defender. That guy just won the Norris Trophy...something that "tough" Mr. Shea Weber and Chara couldn't win against him.

Toughness is TOO overrated. SKILL is all that matters.

You have skill, you are a difference maker.

Enforcers are tough as hell, I don't see them winning Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe's.

So I assume you'd trade Chara or Weber for Karlsson?

You realize that Chara won a Norris over Mike Green right, and is the only one of those three to win the cup?

There is a spectrum of toughness and a spectrum of talent, these things aren't black and white. You don't "have" toughness or skill, there are varying levels.

 

[Pi]

So I assume you'd trade Chara or Weber for Karlsson?

You realize that Chara won a Norris over Mike Green right, and is the only one of those three to win the cup?

There is a spectrum of toughness and a spectrum of talent, these things aren't black and white. You don't "have" toughness or skill, there are varying levels.

I know there are varying levels.

One of the posters said that we have to trade one of Gardiner or Rielly because they are soft. To that I'd say...Komisarek is a tough SOB but he sucks, Schenn is a tough D but his skating is terrible and fast smooth skaters like Kessel, Rielly and Gardiner could run circles around him.

A) Rielly isn't soft, he just isn't a hitter or an intimidator but he fights for the puck.
B) Gardiner is soft but has anyone seen the moves this guy can pull off against NHL defenses? He's easily the best player for the Marlies right now. He's going to run the PP this year if the lockout ends.

Chara is Chara...he's a bit of everything. Great offense, amazing D and intimidation factor.

Shea Weber's "toughness" gets overrated. Nobody is particularly scared of playing against the guy, he's a great D, that has a booming accurate shot and plays decent D. He's a smarter version of Dion Phaneuf.

Karlsson is soft, but he doesn't have to hit players through the boards to help his team win. He is orders of magnitude better than Mike Green.

Karlsson is similar to an NFL QB, the entire Ottawa offense runs through him. When he's on the ice, everyone has a change to put up points because he is elusive, hard to get the puck from and has great vision.

Ottawa was supposed to be a basement team because of inconsistent goaltending, bad D and lack of top six forwards. Karlsson is a big reason why they made the playoffs.

If he can put up ~80 points right now, there is no telling what he can do in the future. I think he's staying near PPG pace for a few years.

---

Also Chara winning the Cup has no barring to anything. This isn't the NFL or the NBA where we compare players by the number of rings they have.

Brett Lebda has a ring, and he isn't better than 99% of the defenseman in the league. Chara plays on a better team, he makes the team better but there are other players that do the same.