Line Combos: Would the Bruins ever consider: Kelly-Bergeron-Peverley?

[LouJersey]

If we expect less offensively from Bergeron because of his role,. then wouldn't it be fair to not expect Seguin to "light it up" since he is on a psuedo checking line?

Or has he not reached board cult status and immunity to criticism?

 

[Morris Wanchuk]

I can remember a few times in the playoffs last year, Seguin starting an defensive zone faceoff on the bench with Kelly in there. It limits Seguins ice time who is one or the top offensive player on the team.

Happened last night

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

If we expect less offensively from Bergeron because of his role,. then wouldn't it be fair to not expect Seguin to "light it up" since he is on a psuedo checking line?

Or has he not reached board cult status and immunity to criticism?

It has really held back Marchand... oh wait.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

...

I like the idea. And I like the thread more.

The biggest reason for concern (for me) is breaking up Marchand/Bergeron, which seems like our most dynamite combo on the team.

One thing though (and I haven't seen anyone else mention it, really) is that I believe Kelly/Bergeron/Peverley would DOMINATE. I don't think we'd see a line devoid of offence... I think we'd see three guys who could work together and have enough drive, speed, strength and hockey IQ that they would be extremely difficult to contain. That mix is a delicious one that would ensure one of the best "third" lines in the sport. Three-zone hockey at its very best.

Kudos, Bill.

 

[Lost Horizons]

This would just basically be Axelsson-Bergeron-Kebasew 2.0 and how that work out for every body?

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

This would just basically be Axelsson-Bergeron-Kebasew 2.0 and how that work out for every body?

I don't think it would be, man. I don't think so at all.

Kobasew was a gronk. Fast! But a gronk. Didn't know where to go or how to get there. Axelsson (god bless him) was lost in the offensive zone.

Kelly and Peverley are BOTH substantially more adept than BOTH of the other linemates you mention. And Bergeron is better now too, than he was back then.

 

[MarchandNoseBest]

I love the idea. I don't think Bergeron would be too pissed off over it either, because it's not like he's a FA to be and next year he goes right back to a top 6 forward role, since we couldn't afford to re-sign both Horton and Iginla or whatever new guy would be coming in to play in the top 6. So it wouldn't cost him any money, and I have a hard time seeing Bergeron being livid with the Bruins for only costing him stats in half a season (or less) of half a season.

Lucic-Krejci-Horton
Marchand-Seguin-Iginla
Kelly-Bergeron-Peverley
Paille-Campbell-Thornton

Holy crap. That said, I don't see it as very likely, unfortunately. Don't think Claude would be real high on a Seguin to center move for defensive purposes. I also don't see radical changes with how well the Bruins are playing, I'm guessing they go with a more conservative approach and just add a Brenden Morrow type to the 3rd line. Which is fine with me, but I do like your idea better, Bill.

 

[Confound]

I actually like this idea too. Depends on the winger for the second line but it could work better than what we have been going with so far.

Lucic-Krejci-Horton
Marchand-Seguin-
Kelly-Bergeron-Peverley
Paille-Campbell-Thornton

Trade a combination of Caron, 2013 first and prospects besides Koko and Spooner for a second line winger.

I do like the idea of a Kelly-Bergeron-Peverley, perfect shutdown line, especially come playoff time. Line those three up against other teams top lines, have them shut them out while leaving our other two top lines to score up against weaker lines. Our fourth line has been average, I think they'll turn it up sooner rather than later and be one of the best 4th lines in the league pretty soon. Chia also needs to at least grab another NHL caliber d-man for depth reasons.

 

[Lost Horizons]

I don't think it would be, man. I don't think so at all.

Kobasew was a gronk. Fast! But a gronk. Didn't know where to go or how to get there. Axelsson (god bless him) was lost in the offensive zone.

Kelly and Peverley are BOTH substantially more adept than BOTH of the other linemates you mention. And Bergeron is better now too, than he was back then.

They're not all that different:

rp .21 gpg
ck .19 gpg

ck .16 gpg
pj .12 gpg

The only real difference between CK and RP is CK fought. Currently both have played the same amount of games RP only has one more pt then ck. RP is -5 CK is +2. CK is playing half the mins to boot.

 

[remer]

Lucic-Krejci-Horton
Marsh-Bergeron- Seguin-
Kelly-Weiss-Peverley
Paille-Campbell-Thornton/Caron

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

They're not all that different:

rp .21 gpg
ck .19 gpg

ck .16 gpg
pj .12 gpg

The only real difference between CK and RP is CK fought. Currently both have played the same amount of games RP only has one more pt then ck. RP is -5 CK is +2. CK is playing half the mins to boot.

You're telling me that you don't seriously see the difference between Chuck Kobasew and Rich Peverley? That by narrowing it down to one metric, you've come to the conclusion that they're pretty much the same?

 

[774EVER]

I've been thinking of this thread for a while Bill. At first I didn't like the idea. I like Bergeron's role as a two-way centre and not merely a checking center. But I think we have to take into the account the uniqueness that is Julien's system.

As we all know, Julien loves to roll out all 4 lines. This allows them to wear out the opponent and was one of the keys to their success in 2011. In terms of ice time, the minutes would hardly go down with Bergeron centering the 3rd line, especially since he's still see PP and PK time.

As for line matching, Julien places more emphasis on having his d-parings out there against the other team's top lines, and not so much on matching line-for-line. Chia could target a player that is offensive-minded, but is also defensively responsible player for the 2nd line. This would allow Julien the confidence to throw any one of the top three lines out there against the top lines, not just Bergy's line.

This leaves the concern that Bergeron will be playing with less talented players. For me, Pevs is more than skilled and could show immediate chemistry with Bergeron. Kelly could be the odd man on that line, but if he is able to become the grinding winger who is able to open up space, the PBK line could be effective.

Crazy how a player like Bergeron, who would be the top line center on half the teams in the NHL, could realistically play on the Bruins 3rd line when this is all said and done.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Not sure I follow your logic Watson. At the start you say you shouldn't adjust the MBS line, then you say Julien's going to doing what he does and stick to his strategies.

Well, what Julien does, is constantly adjust the MBS line because he wants Bergeron and Kelly on the ice together for all the defensive zone draws and critical situations. It's more than just Seguin winning draws, it's about having your best, most competent DEFENSIVE players out there at critical times (and I think he likes having a LH option for the dot as well). Seguin could lead the team in FO%, and IMO, Julien would still roll out Kelly for that faceoff. That's why Kelly's here.

My issue is that I think this hurts Seguin and Bergeron/Marchand. I think that was painfully evident in the Caps series and I don't want to see history repeat.

Fwiw, I also don't think we see this kind of juggling a lot with the Krejci or Kelly lines. Krejci gets most of his starts in the offensize zone where it's not as big a deal if he gets tossed, and Kelly has Peverley to back him up. We do see some juggling with the 4th line but nobody is going to lose sleep over Thornton missing a shift.



But that is exactly what they do now. It's not like they just play 2 lines in the 3rd when they're looking for a goal.

Last year against the Caps...
Game 7, the Bruins need a goal to win: Chris Kelly saw 9 shifts in the 3rd period with 4 in the last 5 minutes.
Game 4, the Bruins are losing 4-3 and need a goal to send the game into OT: Kelly saw 9 shifts in the 3rd period with 3 coming in the last 4 minutes.

So, Kelly and Peverley are already out there in that situation. That's not going to change. Putting Bergeron with them just makes them more likely to score and less likely to get scored upon. And I think it would make for better flow, if they know they could just go out and play, and not have the interruption of someone going off for a change and dumping it in because you're worried you're short a man for a few seconds.

----------
Last year against the Caps, maybe I'M wrong, but my memory is that Bergeron played injured and was not taking faceoffs for a large part of theat series.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

So my understanding is we bring down Bergeron to the third line, to shut down opponents with Kelly and Peverly.

You pull up Seguin at center - in the top 6. The same Seguin that is removed by CJ from key D zone faceoffs as a winger.... it's an idea, but I do not like it.

At the same time you will accept paying your third line center top 6 money, and ask him to bring the same Offense in those conditions. Not a good cap idea.

And we put Seguin at center with Marchand and the New Guy, the same Seguin who has alot to learn on the boards first, and second with big center responsability on a team defence system playing with the centerman acting like a third D... and this will bring more balance to the Bruins. I don't like that idea also.

I remember That the Bruins won SC with Marchand and Bergy playing with Recchi. Is Recchi better than Seguin? Or was the third line contribution better.

Why not simply correct the third line! It seem easier to me that move than doing a major change with Seguin playing center.

I beleive the Bruins first need is a 3 rd or 4 th D and / or a big winger. Not a center.

 

[Son of Donegal]

They're not all that different:

rp .21 gpg
ck .19 gpg

ck .16 gpg
pj .12 gpg

The only real difference between CK and RP is CK fought. Currently both have played the same amount of games RP only has one more pt then ck. RP is -5 CK is +2. CK is playing half the mins to boot.

Yikes. Chuck had his best years as a Bruin, but even then, he was very much a north-south player with graham cracker legs. Peverly is WAY more dynamic than CK.

Nothing against PJ Axelswede, but he was overrated. I know that sounds funny because at the time people made him out to be the NHL's best kept secret....but, ANYWAYS I remember one time I saw him take a slap shot and he fell to the ice like the little guy in Nintendo Ice Hockey.

 

[panny2727]

I have liked marchy horton and seguin on the ice together when it randomly happens. there is a ton of speed when this happens and gets real dangerous. something to think about. especially if they got a first liner like briere or iginla or perry without subtracting from the top 9.

lucic krejci new guy
marchand seguin Horton
pev berg kelly
merlot

I would try this for a few weeks

 

[PlayMakers]

----------
Last year against the Caps, maybe I'M wrong, but my memory is that Bergeron played injured and was not taking faceoffs for a large part of theat series.

Bergeron's not hurt anymore, and Julien is still putting Kelly on the ice in place of Seguin for Dzone faceoffs in close games.

So my understanding is we bring down Bergeron to the third line, to shut down opponents with Kelly and Peverly. You pull up Seguin at center - in the top 6. The same Seguin that is removed by CJ from key D zone faceoffs as a winger.... it's an idea, but I do not like it.

I don't know that it's an up or down for anyone, there's only 40 seconds of even strength ice time between the so-called 2nd and 3rd lines as it is.

At the same time you will accept paying your third line center top 6 money, and ask him to bring the same Offense in those conditions. Not a good cap idea.

Depends on whether you think centers are more important than wingers. I'd rather have a terrific 3rd center than a terrific 2nd line winger. I think they influence the game more.

And we put Seguin at center with Marchand and the New Guy, the same Seguin who has alot to learn on the boards first, and second with big center responsability on a team defence system playing with the centerman acting like a third D... and this will bring more balance to the Bruins. I don't like that idea also.

The same Seguin who was just praised by Julien for his strong defensive play this season. The same Seguin who's consistently the first guy back on the back check. The same Seguin who leads the team in +/-. The same Seguin who forced 3 turnovers against the Senators and saved a goal in each of the last two games playing in the center's role.

I remember That the Bruins won SC with Marchand and Bergy playing with Recchi. Is Recchi better than Seguin? Or was the third line contribution better.

They did, and Mark Recchi took 38 faceoffs during that run. Julien trusted Recchi with everything. He trusted him to make the smart defensive play (just like he does with Kelly) and even be that LH faceoff option should Bergeron get tossed.

Why not simply correct the third line! It seem easier to me that move than doing a major change with Seguin playing center.

Because that doesn't solve the problem.

Improving the 3rd line is great and I hope they do it, but Julien is still going to want to put Kelly on the ice with Bergeron. A lot. That is going to limit Seguin's minutes, and (I believe) it makes it harder for Bergeron and Marchand to get it going offensively because as soon as they begin to move the puck up ice, they lose a man (going for a line change). We saw it last night against Ottawa.

I beleive the Bruins first need is a 3 rd or 4 th D and / or a big winger. Not a center.

I agree that the B's need a #3 D and a big winger, but I'd like to see them try some other combinations like this suggested Bergeron line, not now when they're on a hot streak, but at some point before the playoffs begin so they have other options if/when these issues arise again.

 

[PlayMakers]

...

I like the idea. And I like the thread more.

The biggest reason for concern (for me) is breaking up Marchand/Bergeron, which seems like our most dynamite combo on the team.

One thing though (and I haven't seen anyone else mention it, really) is that I believe Kelly/Bergeron/Peverley would DOMINATE. I don't think we'd see a line devoid of offence... I think we'd see three guys who could work together and have enough drive, speed, strength and hockey IQ that they would be extremely difficult to contain. That mix is a delicious one that would ensure one of the best "third" lines in the sport. Three-zone hockey at its very best.

Kudos, Bill.

Thanks bud. And I agree that 23-37-49 could be a dominant two-way line. I think Peverley and Bergeron could have excellent chemistry. It reminds me a bit of the old Sturgeroyes line. Bergy and Peverley could play the puck possesion game, and Kelly could drive the net and get open. I know Kells doesn't have the numbers Sturm had, but he does have the ability to score those timely goals.

It certainly would be interesting to see, even if they only trotted it out for the playoffs, sort of like the Chara-Seidenberg pairing.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Bergeron's not hurt anymore, and Julien is still putting Kelly on the ice in place of Seguin for Dzone faceoffs in close games.

I was responding to your post referring to last year's playoff.

I don't know that it's an up or down for anyone, there's only 40 seconds of even strength ice time between the so-called 2nd and 3rd lines as it is.

Bergeron's ice time per play is one if not the lower by presence on the team.

Depends on whether you think centers are more important than wingers. I'd rather have a terrific 3rd center than a terrific 2nd line winger. I think they influence the game more.

So you are saying - bring down Bergeron on the third line cause Seguin and Horton are not doing the job on the wings.

The same Seguin who was just praised by Julien for his strong defensive play this season. The same Seguin who's consistently the first guy back on the back check. The same Seguin who leads the team in +/-. The same Seguin who forced 3 turnovers against the Senators and saved a goal in each of the last two games playing in the center's role.

CJ's call is what I beleive a : positive influence - a media control. If I would be at his place - that is exacltly what I would do. Seguin is improving - but I don't see him as the top defensive performer you are trying to sell me nor as CJ is trying to sell either.

So if we put the puzzle together, CJ praises Seguins defensive zone, but removes him in critical defensive situation.

I remember That the Bruins won SC with Marchand and Bergy playing with Recchi. Is Recchi better than Seguin? Or was the third line contribution better.

I agree that the B's need a #3 D and a big winger, but I'd like to see them try some other combinations like this suggested Bergeron line, not now when they're on a hot streak, but at some point before the playoffs begin so they have other options if/when these issues arise again.

Ok I agree, that as a GM or an organisation, you need to have some b and c plan in case. Your idea is not dumb and is quite interesting. It also opens a fun discussion. I also understand that people want to put Seguin on a more offensive thinking line. If that's the case, switch with Horton.

But in the CJ system - swapping down PB on the third and having Seguin at center with Marchand and with we don't know who - is not making the Bruins, from my point of view, a better team.

DK and Bergy are in my view part of the top center duo in the league. There not as flashy, not as Offensively minded because of the Bruins system, but they are two heck of hockey players not deserving enough respect. They are tough to play against. I am not that sure of Seguin at center!

Bruins needs a no. 3 defence for huge minutes, and will lower pressure and ice time on Hamilton ( who is incredible - but will face his wall), and they need a winger - if possible bigger than third line wingers.

 

[PlayMakers]

Bill I'm of the following mind:

1. Bergeron's line is clicking and see no reason to change it.

I don't want to change it right now either, but I think there are some potential issues that arise in the playoffs when every Dzone draw is a "critical" defensive situation that calls for line juggling to get your two best defensive forwards on the ice at the same time.

2. Seguin doesn't deserve any kind of a "promotion" based on his play this season.

Respectfully, I think you're very hard on certain players. For example, in the "Name our Top 5 Players This Season thread, I saw that you were "extremely disappointed" that nobody had mentioned Seguin, but didn't seem at all phazed nobody had mentioned Chara.

But if it pleases the court, call it a demotion for Seguin. Keep Marchand with Bergeron and Kelly. Put Seguin with Peverley and the NewGuy. The ice time is almost a wash so I don't think it matters.

And I don't want to get carried away with his recent defensive performances and claim he's ready for the 2nd line center role.

This isn't a recent thing for me. At the end of last season, I was saying that I thought Seguin's D was much improved- to the point where I thought he was at least as good as Savard was- and I think he's improved on last year. Savard wasn't Bergeron or Krejci good defensively either, but he managed fine in this system.

3. You're moving a quality centermen, Kelly, to wing in order to supplant him at center with a lesser centerman, Seguin. I realize their mates and ice time is different, but nevertheless you've weakened the center position for the benefit of improving the wing position by the difference between Bourque and the "new player". That better be one hell of a new player considering how important the center position is, particularly for this team.

I disagree that Seguin is a lesser centerman than Kelly, they're different players with completely different strengths. We won't know if the team would be better for it until they actually try it.

Lastly, I'm hopeful we don't need such a move because I don't think this team's needs are up front, but rather on D. I think PC's biggest acquisition should be a top 4 dman with some skill to help the PP. Acquiring such a player, I assume, precludes the possibility of acquiring a forward that would necessitate us juggling lines like this.

Fwiw, I do agree that the bigger need is a #3 D. When the playoffs come, Julien is probably going to make a similar defensive adjustment to the D group, putting Seidenberg back with Chara, and when that happens you're going to have Ference (who's having a tough year) with Boychuk as your 2nd pair AND you're going to force one of Hamilton/McQuaid (who's also having a tough year) to play on a side they've never played before.

 

[Neely08]

Depends on whether you think centers are more important than wingers. I'd rather have a terrific 3rd center than a terrific 2nd line winger. I think they influence the game more.

That's the philosophy that tore other defenses to shreds in 09, 3 strong centers. No one could counter our 3rd line w/ Krejci, Ryder, and Wheeler. Krejci vs 3rd line competition was no contest. That would get us back to where we were when we had Savard. It would be nice.

 

[PlayMakers]

I was responding to your post referring to last year's playoff.

I know. I was making the point that, yes, he was hurt last year but even now when he's fully healthy they're still subbing in Kelly for faceoffs, and they're still having the same problems where Kelly goes off for a change in the middle of the rush and we have to give up possession.

Bergeron's ice time per play is one if not the lower by presence on the team.

I apologize, but I'm not sure what this means.

So you are saying - bring down Bergeron on the third line cause Seguin and Horton are not doing the job on the wings.

No. I'm saying I prefer the 3 line model to the 2 line model, and I think Seguin will (eventually) be a better center than a winger.

CJ's call is what I beleive a : positive influence - a media control. If I would be at his place - that is exacltly what I would do. Seguin is improving - but I don't see him as the top defensive performer you are trying to sell me nor as CJ is trying to sell either.

So if we put the puzzle together, CJ praises Seguins defensive zone, but removes him in critical defensive situation.

I think removing him is more about Kelly being a great defensive player than Seguin being a bad one. Why wouldn't you want your two best defensive players on the ice at the most important defensive moments in a game?

Ok I agree, that as a GM or an organisation, you need to have some b and c plan in case. Your idea is not dumb and is quite interesting. It also opens a fun discussion. I also understand that people want to put Seguin on a more offensive thinking line. If that's the case, switch with Horton.

I don't think it would be any different for Horton. He's still not as good as Kelly defensively, which would lead to them pulling him off the ice and jumbling the lines on the fly.

But in the CJ system - swapping down PB on the third and having Seguin at center with Marchand and with we don't know who - is not making the Bruins, from my point of view, a better team.

DK and Bergy are in my view part of the top center duo in the league. There not as flashy, not as Offensively minded because of the Bruins system, but they are two heck of hockey players not deserving enough respect. They are tough to play against. I am not that sure of Seguin at center!

Bruins needs a no. 3 defence for huge minutes, and will lower pressure and ice time on Hamilton ( who is incredible - but will face his wall), and they need a winger - if possible bigger than third line wingers.

Fair enough.

 

[Alan Ryan]

Spooner at third line Center

It has been good and I'm definitely not saying they should make this change today. But if they get the kind of player Chiarelli's been rumored to be after, then I think things get interesting because a guy like Briere is obviously better suited to a top 6 role, which begs the question: Who goes down? Who would be the best suited to play with Kells and Perv?

That said, it definitely would be easier to make this kind of move with a guy like Spooner because there would be no confusion/debate/hurt feelings over who the "3rd" center is. Although I would think they'd want Spooner to play out the rest of this season and playoffs in Providence.

Thanks Bill. I realize that this thread, and adjusted lines with Seguin at center, is based on the acquisition of a forward who can play in the top six. If that happens, as you indicate, it gives the Bruins a lot of flexibility. But they may not find the right player in this market at a price they are willing to pay.

What if the B's are unable to acquire someone who fits and they have to go with what they have? To me the biggest area of concern is the third line--they have to get more involved offensively. The top six, including Seguin at RW, is functioning well and they don't really need to make big changes.

I'm with DKH. I'd like the team to try upgrading the third line by bringing Spooner up for a trial at center between Kelly and Peverly, sending Bourque back to Providence or keep him as a spare forward. Bourque is trying hard but isn't the right player for that line.

With Spooner the third line could be more creative, giving Peverly and Kelly more scoring opportunities, while remaining defensively responsible (all three are centers). Spooner also could help on the power play and shootouts.

Do it soon--if it doesn't work there will be time to make other adjustments. It also provides the opportunity to evaluate Spooner's role in the organization for next season. If he is as good as he looks in Providence, and the following line-up works well, it could help them with the cap issues for next year.


Lucic - Krejci - Horton
Marchand - Bergeron - Seguin
Kelly - Spooner - Peverly
Paille - Campbell - Thornton

MacDermid - Pandolfo

 

[Alan Ryan]

I'm with the folks here pointing out that the Bergeron + Marchand combo is money. I would be very hesitant to separate those two.

I agree. The Seguin and Marchand combo ain't bad either.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Originally Posted by nords1995 ]

Bergeron's ice time per play is one if not the lower by presence on the team.

I apologize, but I'm not sure what this means.

Thank's for your apology But you're right, My sentence was extremely not well written, and I'm not sure how to write it correctly - so in another world and maybe on an another HF Boards in french

No. I'm saying I prefer the 3 line model to the 2 line model, and I think Seguin will (eventually) be a better center than a winger.

I understand that you consider Seguin + Bergeron at center an upgrade on Bergeron + Kelly at center. Time will tell, if Seguin is given center duty.

I think removing him is more about Kelly being a great defensive player than Seguin being a bad one. Why wouldn't you want your two best defensive players on the ice at the most important defensive moments in a game?

That is exactly what the Bruins are actually doing.

Fair enough.

Hopefully this winning stretch won't finish and ugrades on D and wing will come in. Cause a Marchand - Seguin duo composing with half of our D zone is not what I would be dreaming about. That combo duo on a line would be - from my humble point of view - extremely vulnerable especially when not at home. This also put on the team with 3 r.h centers for the majority of the draws.