GWT: World Cup - Round of 16 - Morocco v. Spain

[bluesfan94]

Just because one pile of shit is infinitely smaller than another doesn't make it any less a pile of shit. These players chose to represent a certain nation for whatever reasons they do and not respecting that is shitty...in either direction.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever discuss or joke about that stuff, just don't tell me you're being respectful while openly being an asshole.

See, this to me feels like you're erasing a part of a person's identity just because they elected to play for a certain country. Jermaine Jones is not not German just because he ultimately elected to play for America.

 

[cgf]

See, this to me feels like you're erasing a part of a person's identity just because they elected to play for a certain country. Jermaine Jones is not not German just because he ultimately elected to play for America.

Only if you assume that a person's identity is limited to just what country they chose to represent and that there isn't more nuance to it. The heritages and foreign connections that individuals bring with them don't disappear when they put on a NT shirt, but debating or joking about the nativeness of a given NT is not the way to respectfully discuss those nuances.

Jones, Johnson, and any of the other german-american players who represented you didn't become any less german when they did so, but calling them germans while they wore your shirt would not have been respecting their decision.

 

[bluesfan94]

Only if you assume that a person's identity is limited to just what country they chose to represent and that there isn't more nuance to it. The heritages and foreign connections that individuals bring with them don't disappear when they put on a NT shirt, but debating or joking about the nativeness of a given NT is not the way to respectfully discuss those nuances.

I guess my only point is that I don't feel like it's disrespectful to talk about the options a player has, nor do I find it disrespectful to acknowledge the way colonial history has intertwined with football, even if it's done in a tongue-in-cheek way. And I think this only comes up in situations where there's a perceived dominant nation; France and former African colonies or Germany and Turkey.

People were not up in arms when America was described as a mini-German national team with Jones, Johnson, Brooks, Chandler, Boyd, Kiesewetter, Morales, Green, etc. As I mentioned earlier, Dest being Dutch was talked about a ton in the leadup to the Round of 16 matchup and no one complained about that.

Or for another example, we saw Embolo refuse to celebrate when he scored on Cameroon for a reason. To ignore that reason seems all the more disrespectful.

 

[cgf]

I guess my only point is that I don't feel like it's disrespectful to talk about the options a player has, nor do I find it disrespectful to acknowledge the way colonial history has intertwined with football, even if it's done in a tongue-in-cheek way. And I think this only comes up in situations where there's a perceived dominant nation; France and former African colonies or Germany and Turkey.

People were not up in arms when America was described as a mini-German national team with Jones, Johnson, Brooks, Chandler, Boyd, Kiesewetter, Morales, Green, etc. As I mentioned earlier, Dest being Dutch was talked about a ton in the leadup to the Round of 16 matchup and no one complained about that.

Or for another example, we saw Embolo refuse to celebrate when he scored on Cameroon for a reason. To ignore that reason seems all the more disrespectful.

Whether people were up in arms about it in the US or not, I would not describe those jokes as respecting the players' decisions.

Only assholes would say that a player in Embolo's situation should celebrate all goals for his nation since he made his choice...and that's exactly the sort of thing I meant by those connections not disappearing just because you pull on a certain shirt.

But a player choosing not to celebrate against a certain nation because of how they know they feel is very different from some strangers on the internet joking/debating about how native a given NT is.


Sure if we want to have a deeper discussion about colonialism, economic-migrants, and both of those topics' cross-section with football, that's a rich vein...and even the "we developed your players" topic can be interesting to point out before moving on; as long as you're careful to talk about the players being foreign-trained rather than just foreign.

But that's not what was happening.

 

[bluesfan94]

Sure if we want to have a deeper discussion about colonialism, economic-migrants, and both of those topics' cross-section with football, that's a rich vein...and even the "we developed your players" topic can be interesting to point out before moving on; as long as you're careful to talk about the players being foreign-trained rather than just foreign.

But that's not what was happening.

Fair enough. I think we agree for the most part, I'm just a little more lenient with some light, well-intentioned joking!

 

[cgf]

Fair enough. I think we agree for the most part, I'm just a little more lenient with some light, well-intentioned joking!

Nah feel free to joke away, just don't call it respecting the player's decision when someone complains about it. If you'd owned that you guys were being dicks, I wouldn't have engaged at all.

We can all be dicks at times...even though I'm a genuinely awesome person in general, I was still being a real asshole this morning when I was joking with the new girl I'm talking to about the spanish kids crying after their loss.

 

[John Pedro]

Not chocked by this. Spain just doesn't have high-end forwards. their midfield is great but relying on Asensio, Ferran Torres or Morata... ugh

 

[Evilo]

French? European, sure. But French?

Bono, Aguerd, En-Neysri, Ounahi were all trained in Morocco.
Amrabat, Ziyech and Mazraoui in Holland.
Hakimi in Spain.
Amallah in Belgium.

Leaves Boufal and Saiss in the starting 11 that was born/trained in France.

3 if them yes.
With plenty of others coming through L1.

 

[bluesfan94]

3 if them yes.
With plenty of others coming through L1.

Harit isn't on the team.

 

[Evilo]

Calling Morocco (or Senegal, or any other post-colonial country for that matter) a French team is a lot grosser than the reverse

When half the team is recruited among French born players (not Morocco's case) I don't see what's wrong.

Just because one pile of shit is infinitely smaller than another doesn't make it any less a pile of shit. These players chose to represent a certain nation for whatever reasons they do and not respecting that is shitty...in either direction.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever discuss or joke about that stuff, just don't tell me you're being respectful while openly being an asshole.

I don't think I disrespected anyone here?

 

[Evilo]

Harit isn't on the team.

I know. Because of a freaky injury on the last day of L1.

 

[luiginb]

EAT SHIT SPAIN

Wonder which shithole you're from...

It's time for Luis Enrique to dedicate all his time to Twitch.

 

[sansabri]

Wonder which shithole you're from...

It's time for Luis Enrique to dedicate all his time to Twitch.

Boohoo

 

[Rob]

According to Enrique they dominated the game. hmmm

 

[Karterthadon]

At the end of the day, Spain won all of one game out of four at this WC and it was against puny Costa Rica. Their football just ain't good.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

According to Enrique they dominated the game. hmmm

domination lol

That's funny, because I thought you won and lost based on whether or not you score more goals than your opponent, LITTLE DID I KNOW THAT ALL ALONG IT WAS JUST BASED ON POSSESSION PERCENTAGE

 

[Panteras]

At the end of the day, Spain won all of one game out of four at this WC and it was against puny Costa Rica. Their football just ain't good.

Spain is probably amongst the top teams when it comes to core of young players. They lack a superstar like Messi, Haaland, or Mbappe but overall all their players are talented players who play at the highest level week in week out. They just have 2 problems, #1 being stuck with an outdated philosophy and #2 with a coach that prefers streaming more than anything. Luis Enrique’s Spain was just doomed to fail from the start. Only brings Morata as a #9 to the cup but only uses him as a sub every match even though he scores 3 goals…leaves Sergio Ramos out, a player that can bring leadership and instead uses Rodri as a CB when his natural role is a defensive midfielder… or today how he brought in Iñaki Williams but took him out for Sarabia so Sarabia could take penalties? Or starting Llorente? He’s streaming on twitch while at the WC, saying stuff like winning isn’t everything, no auto criticism, a very relaxed and blasé attitude in the WC essentially making the whole team not live the feeling that it is to be at the WC and hence why we saw such a putrid effort from Spain all through the WC except that one game against Costa Rica. Dudes out biking 20 miles each day giving the team free time etc like he came into the WC like it was a vacation. Dude was all alone and hunched over in a corner on the bench watching the penalties while the Moroccan coach was with his staff side by side all by each other’s arms… Which is why he needs to go and Spain need a new coach. Spanish football is ok, they can be a force and a top team, they just need better leadership to implement a different mentality.

 

[bluesfan94]

or today how he brought in Iñaki Williams but took him out for Sarabia so Sarabia could take penalties?

Iñaki plays for Ghana; you're thinking of his brother Nico.

 

[Panteras]

Iñaki plays for Ghana; you're thinking of his brother Nico.

Yeah sorry that’s who I meant.

 

[cgf]

Spain has the same problem we have, they're in a transitional phase and their best players are still children...but that won't be the case for too much longer. Just like Musiala, Wirtz, & co. are moving steadily towards replacing Mesut, Toni, & co..; so are Gavi, Pedri, etc.

Now they don't have a Mouki...that I know of...so I'm higher on our young talent/core than theirs, but they're exciting too. Not as deep as France and Portugal, but the top-end talent is there to match their level.

 

[les Habs]

Wonder which shithole you're from...

It's time for Luis Enrique to dedicate all his time to Twitch.

Well don’t read some of the other posts in this thread. This is the sort of thing that happens on this forum when there’s a major international tournament.

Iñaki plays for Ghana; you're thinking of his brother Nico.

And plenty of other problems where that one came from.

 

[Joey Banana]

Morocco, just like Japan, deserves credit for winning more than Spain should be blamed for losing. Especially considering they have not allowed a single goal outside an own goal so far.

Spain is a young team still learning the ropes as others have said, they'll be fine.

 

[luiginb]

Yeah that Aguerd-Saiss central defense is really good, hopefully they can both recover till the Portugal game.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think Spain's fundamental problem was that they struggled with getting the ball into the box. A lot of credit there of course goes to Morocco's defense, but also the failure of the Spanish forwards to accept the challenge of beating those defenders 1v1. Instead they kept drifting away from the tight spaces and instead just passed the ball around where there was more space. Like animals will always seek the path of least resistance to food, shelter etc. a Spaniard will always seek the path of least resistance to possession.

 

[spintheblackcircle]