OT: World Cup of Soccer and General Soccer Talk

SweYote

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Jun 7, 2011
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England is all but done in the World Cup as Uruguay wins 2-1.

They advance if...

Italy beats Costa Rica
Italy beats Uruguay
England beats Costa Rica with enough goals to make up for goal differential

They need three games to go their way, sure, but let's remember what they need from all three games is also the most likely outcomes.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
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277
They advance if...

Italy beats Costa Rica
Italy beats Uruguay
England beats Costa Rica with enough goals to make up for goal differential

They need three games to go their way, sure, but let's remember what they need from all three games is also the most likely outcomes.

Fair enough and certain each game will be interesting as long as England isn't officially knocked out.
 

AZviaNJ

“Sure as shit want to F*** Coyote fans.”
Mar 31, 2011
6,702
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AZ
They advance if...

Italy beats Costa Rica
Italy beats Uruguay
England beats Costa Rica with enough goals to make up for goal differential

They need three games to go their way, sure, but let's remember what they need from all three games is also the most likely outcomes.

Tough outcome for the English today. Great match...loads of chances for Rooney and others. The Brits D let them down big time at the end of the game.

Don't sleep on Costa Rica, they dominated Uruguay (granted without their best player) and may give the Italians a very tough game tomorrow.

It's been a great tournament thus far. Highly entertaining!
 

zz

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Nov 1, 2006
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France-Switzerland tomorrow should be pretty good. The Swiss have been kicking ass for a while now.
 

doaner

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Aug 21, 2008
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SURPRISE!
What a pathetic showing by Italy and Costa Rica. Grabbing each others kits and whatnot. I was laughing watching it while working out.
 

SweYote

Registered User
Jun 7, 2011
1,790
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Lund, Sweden
In the nineteen World Cups that have been played so far no team outside of Europe or South America has ever won, or even been to the title game for that matter. Here's why you should expect a South American team to win the world cup this time and not be surprised with European giants falling over one after the other...


European World Cup wins: 10
European World Cup wins in Europe: 9

South American World Cup wins: 9
South American World Cup wins outside of Europe: 8


The two exceptions are Brazil 1958 and Spain 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_finals#List_of_finals
 
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Summer Rose

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Indeed. There have also been few World Cups at all where the host continent did not produce the champion, though in some of them, the host continent has never produced a champion, considering the tournament has been hosted in Asia, North America, and Africa as well. Instances where the host continent did not have a champion were:

1958: European host (Sweden), South American champion (Brazil)
1970: North American host (Mexico), South American champion (Brazil)
1986: North American host (Mexico), South American champion (Argentina)
1994: North American host (USA), South American champion (Brazil)
2002: Asian host (South Korea & Japan), South American champion (Brazil)
2010: African host (South Africa), European champion (Spain)

That said, the most interesting statistic to me is, that before South Africa 2010, a European team had never won the World Cup without a European host. Another interesting fact is, that of Brazil's world-record 5 world cups, only one was won on their home continent, 1962 in Chile.
 

SweYote

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Jun 7, 2011
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Lund, Sweden
There's certainly lot of interesting ways to put these stats. It all comes down to the fact that it's not just about regular home field advantage with the crowds and whatnot. The differences in climate is huge here.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
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Messi gets the very late winner to avoid a tie with Iran in a game where the refs didn't call a penalty when 1 should have been called. Germany vs Ghana with 1 of the most exciting games played in the tourney to date with Ghana making quite a big scare there with a 2-1 lead in the 2nd half.

All the United States have to do tomorrow is win and they advance. Fingers crossed!
 
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ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
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http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-comme...estigation-domestic-violence-according-report

U.S. gold medal-winning goalkeeper Hope Solo was arrested early Saturday morning on investigation of two counts of domestic violence assault, according to police.

Solo, 32, is being held without bail at the SCORE misdemeanor jail in South King County.

Solo allegedly got into an argument with relatives at a family party at the home she shares with her husband, former NFL player Jerramy Stevens, in Kirkland, Washington. At some point during the altercation, according to police, Solo physically struck her sister and 17-year-old nephew.
 

ck26

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Jan 31, 2007
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There's certainly lot of interesting ways to put these stats. It all comes down to the fact that it's not just about regular home field advantage with the crowds and whatnot. The differences in climate is huge here.
Yeah, these stats are fun but they don't really tell the tale. Done with work early tonight and watching the Bosnia/Nigeria game, so I just want to spit some soccer history at y'all if anyone's interested ...

1930: Uruguay ... Uruguay was the first powerhouse in South American soccer ... they won the Olympics in 1924/1928 and a couple of Copa Americas in the 20's. They were really skillful and really violent and they probably would have won the 1934 World Cup had they gone to it (boycotted because a bunch of European teams wouldn't come to their WC in 1930).

1930's Austria ... never quite got it together in the World Cup because of Nazi era politics, they were passing machines (played kinda like Spain does today). It's widely believed they lost the WC semfinal to Germany on purpose / under threat of reprisal. Matthias Sindelar was their best player and he was awesome but history has mostly forgotten him for whatever reason. He refused to play for the pan-German team and he and his girlfriend died mysteriously.

1930's Italy ... Vittorio Pozzo's wikipedia picture of him scowling is perfect. Tactical genius and disciplinarian, his marching orders from Mussolini in 1934 were "win or else" and he did so. Only coach to ever win 2 World Cups, Italy weren't pretty but they were tough and well-organized. Giuseppe Meazza was the star of the team and the stadium in the San Siro district of Milan that AC and Inter share is named after him.

1950's Hungary ... Hungary beat England 6-3 at Wembley and 7-1 in Budapest, which finally banished the idea that England were the world's best at soccer. Hungary were big and strong and fast and skillful and arguably the best team to never win the World Cup. They were unbeaten for like 6 years until they lost the 1954 final to West Germany. The team broke up after the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and they've never really recovered. Ferenc Puskas, Nandor Hidegkuti and Giula Grosics were all world-class, but this was pre-Champions League and they didn't win the World Cup, so it's mostly forgotten.

1970's Holland ... coach Rinus Michels and player Johan Cruyff evolved / invented the idea of "Total Football" with Ajax/Holland where movement and possession really came to the fore. Ajax won 3 Champions Leagues and Holland were WC finalists in 1974 and 1978 with largely the same core of players. Cruyff then went to Barcelona and helped set up the same system / philosophy, which, eventually, led to the modern Barca / Spain teams built on passing and possession.

1970's Poland ... Old timers will tell you that Poland (not Germany, not Holland) were the best team at the 1974 World Cup. They were super-fast and aggressive and scored goals like it was going out of style. Their semifinal (against Germany) shouldn't have taken place because the field was a swamp after a big rainstorm but it was (cue conspiracy theories) and the Polish style couldn't adapt to the wet field. Gregorz Lato might be the best striker you've never heard of.

1982 Brazil ... Another "arguably the best team to ever not win the World Cup" they lost to an opportunistic / lucky Italy team. Middle-aged Brazilians will swear that Zico is the most skillful player the country has ever produced, and I'll swear that their midfielder Socrates was a one-of-a-kind destroyer/playmaker/scorer.

For all the "home country / home continent advantage" talk, 1930 Uruguay, 1934 Italy, 1938 Italy, 1958 Brazil, 1970 Brazil, 2002 Brazil and 2010 Spain were so good that they would have won home / away / on the moon. They basically just beat the brakes of everyone and won the title with room to spare.
 

SweYote

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For all the "home country / home continent advantage" talk, 1930 Uruguay, 1934 Italy, 1938 Italy, 1958 Brazil, 1970 Brazil, 2002 Brazil and 2010 Spain were so good that they would have won home / away / on the moon. They basically just beat the brakes of everyone and won the title with room to spare.

I gotta call bs on this. Sure they were great teams but 1958 Brazil and 2010 Spain were already exceptions to the rule and I have serious doubts about the 1970 and 2002 Brazilian teams going into Europe and winning. I don't know enough about the 30's teams to argue but I doubt they were as superior as you're claiming.

Teams that win the world cup tend to become some sort of folk tale and there's a beauty in that but let's not pretend like every single world cup couldn't have had another winner than they had, because they could, especially if you drastically changed the circumstances.
 

Summer Rose

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Tomorrow's match against Portugal is a must-win (or draw, depending, but a win would be better). Despite Ghana giving the Germans a scare today, it's going to be a miracle if the Americans do anything but lose to Germany, so a loss against Portugal would be devastating.
 

ck26

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Jan 31, 2007
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I gotta call bs on this. Sure they were great teams but 1958 Brazil and 2010 Spain were already exceptions to the rule and I have serious doubts about the 1970 and 2002 Brazilian teams going into Europe and winning. I don't know enough about the 30's teams to argue but I doubt they were as superior as you're claiming.
Obviously we can't go back in time and re-play these tournaments, and 24 hours later, I don't quite think the Italy teams belong with the others. However,

Uruguay was chosen to host in 1930 precisely because they won the 1924 Olympics (in Paris) and 1928 Olympics (in Amsterdam). The Olympics wasn't quite the equal of a modern best-on-best World Cup, but the early World Cups were far from a modern best-on-best either, so I think that one stands up. They didn't win in 1934 because they didn't go.

The 1970 Brazil team is widely considered the best ever. They had as much attacking flair as the crazy Galacticos Madrid teams, but they could actually defend to. Pele, Jairzinho, Roberto Rivelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto, Clodoaldo, Brito, Gerson ... almost everybody was absolutely world-class. 6-0 at the tournament and they destroyed Italy in the final.

The 2002 Brazil team had everybody peaking at once. Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Roberto Carlos were all at their best, and Lucio and Cafu were very close to it, with baby Ronaldinho and baby Kaka kicking around. They were 7-0 at the tournament and outscored their knockout round opponents 7-1. I've heard that their goalie Marcos played the tournament with a broken wrist but nobody noticed ... that's how good the other 10 starters were.
Teams that win the world cup tend to become some sort of folk tale and there's a beauty in that but let's not pretend like every single world cup couldn't have had another winner than they had, because they could, especially if you drastically changed the circumstances.
I think the opposite is true. Many of the most romantic teams in soccer history are the tragic losers -- 1938 Austria, 1954 Hungary, 1974 Holland, 1977 Borussia Moenchengladbach, 1978 Holland, 1982 Brazil to name a handful ... everybody buys the championship DVD but nobody remembers the silver medalist.

History nerds fondly remember the '03 Ducks / Giguere run better than the Devils team that actually won the Cup, or the insanely good 1970's Buffalo Sabres teams that could never get past the Canadiens and Bruins.

There are plenty of World Champions -- 1954 Germany, 1966 England, 1998 France -- that had serious home field advantage / mojo / luck on their side, but the 2002 Brazil team wasn't one of them. Yes, every team gets some good breaks along the way, but please look at that 2002 Brazil roster again ...
 

SweYote

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I didn't see the 1970 team with my own eyes but I did see every single game of the 2002 tournament. Before the final they really only got tested once against England where they won on a goalie mistake from David Seaman. They had an easy group and in the knockout rounds they faced a mediocre Belgium and a Turkish team that really went further than they should have because of relatively easy opponents. They beat the teams they were handed and deserved to win but to say they were so superior they would have won that tournament under any given circumstances is just not true.

I think it's silly to write stats as convincing as this off by saying some winners would have disproved the rule if they got their chance. We don't know. What we do know is what in fact did happen. As you said yourself, the 1982 Brazil had their chance, and the 1978 Netherlands had their chance. They didn't do it. You also have the 1998 Brazil that was extremely hyped, and they couldn't go into France and win it. As a result of this and much more we have a rule that has been accurate in 90% of the world cups and I think that qualifies as undeniable evidence that the "home continent advantage" is huge.
 

zz

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Nov 1, 2006
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Rooting 100% for the US here, but man, they really need to wake up. The first 10 minutes have been absolutely awful to watch. As bad as anything else I've seen so far in the tournament.'

EDIT: looking better.
 
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Vinny Boombatz

formerly ctwin22
Mar 21, 2008
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I won't watch any soccer except for the US games, but that was about as brutal a play as I've seen.

That one mistake is all it takes to take yourself out of advancing. They've played better than Portugal after the first 10 mins, we're gonna need some help.
 

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