Wootlief Chat On ESPN.com Tues.

[Riggins]

Great post Bob. All because of my question. Sorry about the monster I've created, I obviously had no idea.

 

[penkil2]

He tends to answer questions about players he likes. It will be interesting to hear what he says about Robbie Schremp, if someone asks about him.

Woodleif should skate off (that's if he can even skate) to some ancient burial ground in the artic. His comments about some of the players is sickening.

 

[Chili]

I dunno Bob, do you think Mr Woodlief gets out to the rinks to see all of these kids? I don't, which would mean that he is relying on the opinions of others in arriving at his rankings...so would he not be guilty of his own accusations?

Just like opinions on message boards, we like to read them and attach our own weight to them, based on however much knowledge we have in that area.

The "my opinion is the right one because so & so is a schmuck" attitude tends to influence the weight I attach to it.

 

[Artie]

Oh the irony!

It's unfortunate that a thread that began as a discussion on prospects has degenerated into a discussion on the professionalism, or lack there of, of a "journalist". It seems to me that the vast majority of posters on this board routinely take shots at other posters, media sources, or journalists. Think back to how many times we've seen threads go on and on because "insert name of journalist/poster/media source you do not agree with" made a comment about a game or a possible trade or whatever. Mr. Woodlief's detractors would have you believe that he shows little class or respect because of his comments. those who follow Mr. McKenzie believe his commentary showed enormous class.

But in the end they both took shots at someone. One disguised it to a certain degree, while the other was straight forward with it. I guess it's up to the reading public to decide which style they like better.

 

[Chili]

I love a shoot from the hip style like a Brian Burke or Pat Quinn but Mr Woodlief's shot at THN sounds like nothing but envy. He's trying to sell a few more of his newsletters and maybe it will work for him.

 

[Slats432]

It's unfortunate that a thread that began as a discussion on prospects has degenerated into a discussion on the professionalism, or lack there of, of a "journalist". It seems to me that the vast majority of posters on this board routinely take shots at other posters, media sources, or journalists. Think back to how many times we've seen threads go on and on because "insert name of journalist/poster/media source you do not agree with" made a comment about a game or a possible trade or whatever. Mr. Woodlief's detractors would have you believe that he shows little class or respect because of his comments. those who follow Mr. McKenzie believe his commentary showed enormous class.

But in the end they both took shots at someone. One disguised it to a certain degree, while the other was straight forward with it. I guess it's up to the reading public to decide which style they like better.

I don't want to get into a debate about the wheres and what fors of the whole thing but Kyle Woodlief, without provocation went and took a big shot at THN. Without that comment, this thread would have continued on about prospects and his intelligent opinions there of. I am actually a fan of both men. The only difference is that Kyle has the propensity to be unprofessional and controversial. That doesn't mean I don't like his work, it just means that sometimes I don't like his approach.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

THN's draft preview went downhill in my opinion after you stopped doing it Bob. Hasn't been very good the past couple of years.

 

[Mizral]

Woodlief - great scout, I'd say. Some of his rankings are very good, and Red Line Report, while I didn't pick it up this year, is a valuable resource. However, Kyle has had a history of making statements, and somehow I feel this is another statement.

When this bothers me is not so much in what he says, but some of his rankings. Woodlief has been known to make statements in his rankings, and it does bother me. For example, Radulov at #3. Korpikoski at #10 this year. You'd think a player would move up the list more slowly, but neither of these guys did this year. You could argue that both of them were... well, if not 'nobodies', they certainly weren't all that well known entities. Hell, I could be wrong, but I don't recall hearing a peep out of Red Line all year about Radulov until around January or February.

 

[PecaFan]

It's funny, folks love a Don Cherry or Roenick because they'll say what they think, but when a Woodlief does it "it's unprofessional". Personally, I find it refreshing not just getting the same old cliche's.

I'm sure Woodlief finds it incredibly frustrating that he spends a lot of time and money to produce the best possible scouting guide he can, and Joe Fan comes along and thinks THN's guide is just as good if not better, and his guide is massively overpriced. He probably hears that all the time.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

When this bothers me is not so much in what he says, but some of his rankings. Woodlief has been known to make statements in his rankings, and it does bother me. For example, Radulov at #3. Korpikoski at #10 this year. You'd think a player would move up the list more slowly, but neither of these guys did this year. You could argue that both of them were... well, if not 'nobodies', they certainly weren't all that well known entities. Hell, I could be wrong, but I don't recall hearing a peep out of Red Line all year about Radulov until around January or February.

Hmmm I tend to think that's the way it really works in real life. See the thing with Europeans is you're judging them a large part on their play in a few international tournaments each year. So I'd tend to think there would be massive changes after each of these tournaments. Chances are most head scouts haven't gone to see many games of Radulov or Korpikoski in their respective leagues.

Obviously a much different way of scouting for juniors and college players since it's far easier to see them in their leagues. Whereas you can't necessarily see all the top Russians or Finns in the same league. Some are playing in the top league, some in the next one down, some in the junior league, etc.

 

[Chief]

Well, at least Kyle has people talking about the Redline Report - and only a few days before the draft - he may be unprofessional but he knows how to promote his guide doesn't he? Hey, if Kyle reads this I would only ask that next time he take a shot at younggunshockey.com - we could use the press!

All kidding aside, I would think that for a guy who makes his own share of mistakes, that Kyle would be a bit more humble. Guess not.

 

[Oilers Chick]

I think RLR is very informative (as I've mentioned already), but there are other very good sources for scouting information, some of which have already been mentioned. I like THN for its news reporting and their pulse on the NHL (even if I don't always agree with it). Do I think THN is better or worse than RLR? No. I think both are very good and serve good purposes. THN isn't the only hockey news source out there and RLR isn't the only scouting source out there. I like reading whatever I feel informs me the most on what I'm looking for, others may disagree.

BTW, I did like Woodlief's take on Thelen. I completely agree with it (and yes, I saw Thelen numerous times last season too.)

 

[Mizral]

We're talking about this thread in the chat room. If anybody wants to join, log on the chat. Here's a link:

http://hfchat.digitalzones.com/SimpleApplet.html

 

[Chili]

After reading all of today's chat, in fairness to Mr Woodlief, he did give some excellent answers. I liked his comments on Mike Green (a player who I have seen and impressed me) and I also liked this q&a:

allen freehold, nj: why are smaller players usually ranked so low? take a player like nigel dawes for instance... he has been unbelievably successful in juniors as well as the worlds, yet he isn't taken till the later rounds... hasn't it been proven that at the forward position size doesn't matter at much as say goaltending or defense (st.louis, gionta, elias, fleury etc.)?

Kyle Woodlief: Good question. This has been a pet peeve of mine, and if I have a bias, it's toward the highly skilled small player. As I've said often in interview situations, the ONLY positive thing about a 30 team NHL is that it has made a place in the game again for the skilled little guy. As long as a talented smaller player has the guts to go and play in the traffic areas, is willing to compete hard for loose pucks, and will fight through close checking, I'll continue to rank them as high as their talent warrants without regard to their physical stature.

The chat is worth the read.

 

[I am Jack's Fish]

Wonder if was noticed that THN ran a decent size article about ISS in their draft preview and some of their freelance writers have been quoting ISS in some of their articles?

 

[NYR469]

I don't really care about how much other people respect him. I judge him based on his work. And his work is light years ahead of the THN draft preview. Seems to me you're not informed on that subject if you haven't read the Redline draft guide. I think if you had this discussion wouldn't be happening as their product stands up as being 100 times better than the THN Draft preview.

If people don't respect him for taking shots at THN and the NCAA fine. But it's a pity that some people let that taint their opinions of his scouting work because they do a reasonable job and I'm saying that based on reading their past 4 draft guides and seeing how out to lunch or bang on they've been. If you want real draft info you'd get a draft guide from ISS or McKeens or Redline. If you want a fluffy piece with some contradictory quotes and misleading quotes then get THN. As I said, I get both, have for years and am judging their products based on that.

imo what you think about the credibility of his reports and what you think about the way he handles himself are completely separate issues...

i respect his opinion and enjoy reading his scouting reports, but i also think that he was unprofessional making those comments about THN and i also think that he comes across as an arrogant ***** in some of his responses...

woodlief at times seems to put his personal agenda ahead of everything else, whether that be burying a player he doesn't like (schremp), hyping players as RLR sleepers, proclaiming himself a genious for being right about a player in the best, etc...and that stuff can take away from the otherwise great job that RLR does. and IMO he would get alot more respect if he showed some respect to others instead of acting like he is insulted that someone doesn't take his word as gospel

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Is having Schremp low on their list really a personal agenda? I don't buy that at all. If they think the kid has character issues that will hold him back from fulfilling his upside then they'd be remiss to rank him higher don't you think?

 

[Hiishawk]

It's not a matter of comparing the quality of Redline to THN's draft coverage, as some posters have done. THN does not pretend to be solely a draft guide, and, as Bob said, Redline is specially made for the hard-core draft junkie- hence it is 8 times the cost.

Moreover, THN is a review, not a full-blown guide, and this review is only part of THN's journalistic scope. Their writers do not presume to be scouts, they are journalists- and they say clearly that they SURVEY scouts' opinions. Given this then to call THN's journalists 'posers' is unfair and unreasonable.

Woodlief could have said something more diplomatic like, "At Redline we can offer more in-depth profiles than THN can since we are primarily scouts, not journalists　 and we focus entirely on the draft..." but he chose another path instead.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Wonder if was noticed that THN ran a decent size article about ISS in their draft preview and some of their freelance writers have been quoting ISS in some of their articles?

Yup

 

[draftpool]

It's unfortunate that a thread that began as a discussion on prospects has degenerated into a discussion on the professionalism, or lack there of, of a "journalist". It seems to me that the vast majority of posters on this board routinely take shots at other posters, media sources, or journalists. Think back to how many times we've seen threads go on and on because "insert name of journalist/poster/media source you do not agree with" made a comment about a game or a possible trade or whatever. Mr. Woodlief's detractors would have you believe that he shows little class or respect because of his comments. those who follow Mr. McKenzie believe his commentary showed enormous class.

But in the end they both took shots at someone. One disguised it to a certain degree, while the other was straight forward with it. I guess it's up to the reading public to decide which style they like better.

This is a great post. It is funny how Woodlief takes at shot at hockey news and he is scum but when McKenzie goes to a seperate public website and attacks Woodlief he is classy. Yes that makes sense.
Not a shock the usual RLR haters where out in full force.

 

[Dr_Chimera*]

This is a great post. It is funny how Woodlief takes at shot at hockey news and he is scum but when McKenzie goes to a seperate public website and attacks Woodlief he is classy. Yes that makes sense.
Not a shock the usual RLR haters where out in full force.

It's posters like you that will deprive hfboards of future Bob McKenzie postings.

I don't imagine he was impressed with the thn comments, but he did explain THN and its purpose in a classy way. His so-called shot was sarcasm and he used it with great wit, without sinking to the level of the likes of Woodlief (and you).

But, hey, to each his own - some people like petty bickering.

 

[draftpool]

The wisdom of the ages cries out for silence here, but since I'm not that wise but I am pretty old, I'll shoot my mouth off for what it's worth.

First, I currently have no connection whatsoever to The Hockey News Draft Preview and haven't now for a good number of years, but I did found it way back when in the 80s and did personally do the rankings and the prospect write ups from inception until about four or five years ago. During my tenure at THN and since I left there four years ago, I don't recall anybody at THN ever purporting the Draft Preview is anything but what it is -- a preview of the draft. So when I read Kyle's comments about THN being posers and wannabes and that they don't employ scouts or set foot in junior rinks anywhere yet they pretend to know something about the players they write about, I kind of wondered where all that was coming from. Sounds pretty bitter to me. Comparing THN and Redline are apples and oranges. THN is a newspaper. They do what newspapers do, and that includes taking the insights and wisdom of others and making sure they get it out to the reading public. There's no hidden agenda there and I don't believe anyone at THN is interested in passing themselves off a scout. I know when I was there I didn't although people do tend to assume you know more than you do. Redline is a scouting service. Kyle, as I understand it, is a scout who likes to do a newsletter. A cynic might suggest he's the "wannabe," as in a wannabe NHL scout, but I'm not a cynic so I wouldn't say that.

And I wouldn't refer to Chris Bourque as a "puke" but if I was trying to sell a newsletter maybe I would. No shot there. Redline is informative and entertaining. It is for the hardcore hockey fan who wants something above and beyond what can be obtained in the mainstream. THN's Draft Preview is more mainstream and designed to be so because, believe it or not, there are hockey fans, even some serious ones, who have only a passing interest in the draft and THN's Preview more than meets their needs. Since I stopped doing THN's Draft Preview I believe Alan Adams has been overseeing the rankings and the profiles and I think he has done a credible job and I guess when I read Kyle's comments about posers and wannabes, I felt the need to say a word or two on behalf of THN and myself really, who uses the same system now at TSN to rank prospects that I did when I was at THN.

Maybe that makes me a poser or a wannabe, but what I think what it really makes me is busy. Like the folks at THN, my job description is wide and varied. Covering the NHL on a daily basis for the better part of 10 months is a big job. The draft is just one element of it, so I had better be able to rely on the opinions and insights of scouts and GMs because unlike scouts or quasi scouts like Kyle, I can't get to the junior rinks all over the world. He can. Good for him. So I guess what it comes down to is I think Kyle should be proud of the job he does and the work he puts into it and how he's a real live hockey scout, but I'm not sure why he needs to tear down others in the media who happen to do work in the draft field. I know what my mother would say, that it's not nice to tear down others to build yourself up.

We all have our jobs. Some of us are reporters. We report on what other people have to say and I don't think Al Adams or me or anyone else is trying to pass themselves off as a hockey scout. I may not have first-hand knowledge of these prospects but I do know what a lot of scouts and GMs think of many of the players and without betraying any confidences, it's my job to get that information out to those who find it interesting.

Finally, in the big picture, I would say that Korpikoski did indeed come out of nowhere. Any player who will be drafted in the first round, and as Kyle suggests probably in the first half of the first round, and who wasn't on anyone's radar screen, including RLR's, at the beginning of the season would, IMHO, be classified as coming out of nowhere. At least on my planet.

Bob McKenzie
TSN

Wow you'd think Bob would call Kyle and tell him this rather than attack him here. Strange and not very classy.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

This is a great post. It is funny how Woodlief takes at shot at hockey news and he is scum but when McKenzie goes to a seperate public website and attacks Woodlief he is classy. Yes that makes sense.
Not a shock the usual RLR haters where out in full force.

When did McKenzie "attack" Woodlief?

And Bob had to comment to a "separate public website" because:

1-Bob understands that it is extremely important to separate your personal feelings from your work. When you speak as a reporter or journalist, there is no place for that stuff. If Bob had said this in a column on TSN, he just wouldn't be as professional. Which is precisely what separates him from Woodlief.

2-Ragline is nowhere credible or important enough for McKenzie to spend two minutes talking about this hack and correct his misconceptions on TSN anyway. Redline is but a bleep on the radar. I think it's cool that Bob came over here to share his thoughts with us but this is of absolutely no interest to the casual hockey fan, who does not know who Kyle Woodlief is.

 

[draftpool]

It's posters like you that will deprive hfboards of future Bob McKenzie postings.

I don't imagine he was impressed with the thn comments, but he did explain THN and its purpose in a classy way. His so-called shot was sarcasm and he used it with great wit, without sinking to the level of the likes of Woodlief (and you).

But, hey, to each his own - some people like petty bickering.

Haven't you posted like 10 negative posts on this thread about woodlief? It makes me laugh that you are saying others are being negative and bickering.

 

[Dr_Chimera*]

Wow you'd think Bob would call Lyle and tell him this rather than attack him here. Strange and not very classy.

I think most posters here appreciate the post - Bob, unlike most "experts", has shown a down-to-earth nature and I, for one, like that a lot.