WJC - Russia 2017

[Fantomas]

Frankly, Sokolov simply isn't good enough, especially for a purely offensive player.

Popugayev and Kostin are too raw and inexperienced. But, again, I would've liked to have seen Abramov, Chebykin and Smirnov on the extended roster. Oh well, we have Trenin, Urakov, Li, and Kotlyarevskiy instead.

Trenin, Urakov, etc are competing for different jobs than Smirnov and Abramov.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So if Kostin was considered for this roster, perceived as at least serviceable at the Under-20 level, why are we not discussing Svechnikov?

AS outplayed Kostin - badly - and everyone else at WJAC and might be the best 16-year old in the world at the moment.

Bragin likes to pick older teams.

There are two ways to approach picking the team. Pick the more talented hockey players who have the potential to score more points and create more offensive chances, players who will likely be better hockey players in 5 years or pick the players who have more experience, might be better defensively, might provide better leadership, might be better on face-offs. Bragin likes to pick older teams, and his teams have been successful, so its hard to question how he picks his teams.

 

[Yakushev72]

Bragin likes to pick older teams.

There are two ways to approach picking the team. Pick the more talented hockey players who have the potential to score more points and create more offensive chances, players who will likely be better hockey players in 5 years or pick the players who have more experience, might be better defensively, might provide better leadership, might be better on face-offs. Bragin likes to pick older teams, and his teams have been successful, so its hard to question how he picks his teams.

Yes, Bragin's policies deserve respect because he has had the results to justify them, but there is no such thing as a successful strategy that excludes the best players. Sidney Crosby played in the WJC at age 16, in the year where Canada had its greatest depth of talent, and he was the most dominant player in the tournament by a wide measure. And yes, I am mentioning Svechnikov in the same sentence with Crosby deliberately, because I see similarities, particularly in skating ability, the way they glide over the ice with a low center of gravity and make radical turns effortlessly, and the way they handle the puck. Keeping Svechnikov off the ice because of some age policy would be crazy!

 

[Fantomas]

Bragin likes to pick older teams.

There are two ways to approach picking the team. Pick the more talented hockey players who have the potential to score more points and create more offensive chances, players who will likely be better hockey players in 5 years or pick the players who have more experience, might be better defensively, might provide better leadership, might be better on face-offs. Bragin likes to pick older teams, and his teams have been successful, so its hard to question how he picks his teams.

Not exactly true. Bragin has picked exceptional younger players before.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Yes, Bragin's policies deserve respect because he has had the results to justify them, but there is no such thing as a successful strategy that excludes the best players. Sidney Crosby played in the WJC at age 16, in the year where Canada had its greatest depth of talent, and he was the most dominant player in the tournament by a wide measure. And yes, I am mentioning Svechnikov in the same sentence with Crosby deliberately, because I see similarities, particularly in skating ability, the way they glide over the ice with a low center of gravity and make radical turns effortlessly, and the way they handle the puck. Keeping Svechnikov off the ice because of some age policy would be crazy!

incorrect. As a 16 year old Crosby played the '04 tournament in Helsinki and had 2 goals 5 pts in 6 games and was far from the most dominate player in that tournament.
As a 17 year old in '05 on Canada's best team ever he was much better and 1 of the tournaments more dominate players, but not the most dominate.

 

[Yakushev72]

incorrect. As a 16 year old Crosby played the '04 tournament in Helsinki and had 2 goals 5 pts in 6 games and was far from the most dominate player in that tournament.
As a 17 year old in '05 on Canada's best team ever he was much better and 1 of the tournaments more dominate players, but not the most dominate.

Who in the 2005 tournament was in the same league as Crosby? The closest would be Ovechkin or Malkin, but in fact, Crosby is by far and away the best player that Canada has produced in the last 25 years - no one else is even in the same stratosphere. He is a generational phenomenon. Canadian international teams that have Crosby are always exceptional. Without him, not so much. His leadership skills lift teams up to his level. I'm not saying that Svechnikov is in the same stratosphere - there is not enough information yet to know. But there are some elements there.

 

[wings5]

Who in the 2005 tournament was in the same league as Crosby? The closest would be Ovechkin or Malkin, but in fact, Crosby is by far and away the best player that Canada has produced in the last 25 years - no one else is even in the same stratosphere. He is a generational phenomenon. Canadian international teams that have Crosby are always exceptional. Without him, not so much. His leadership skills lift teams up to his level. I'm not saying that Svechnikov is in the same stratosphere - there is not enough information yet to know. But there are some elements there.

I disagree, in certain mens tournaments Crosby, while not being invisible, was not far and away Canada's best player. Exactly at the 25 year ago mark is Eric Lindros of the 91 draft who was the next big thing before Crosby.

 

[Yakushev72]

I disagree, in certain mens tournaments Crosby, while not being invisible, was not far and away Canada's best player. Exactly at the 25 year ago mark is Eric Lindros of the 91 draft who was the next big thing before Crosby.

I have no idea what tournaments you are talking about where Crosby didn't stand alone as the best player. He certainly was the best in the 2010 and 2014 Olympics, the 2015 WC, and the 2016 World Cup, he literally stood alone at the top. That is also true of the 2005 WJC, although any competition would have come from Ovechkin and Malkin, not a Canadian. Lindros was probably more hyped, but he didn't even come close to achieving what Crosby has, and as leader, he was more divisive and selfish than any more favorable judgment.

 

[Fantomas]

Who in the 2005 tournament was in the same league as Crosby? The closest would be Ovechkin or Malkin, but in fact, Crosby is by far and away the best player that Canada has produced in the last 25 years - no one else is even in the same stratosphere. He is a generational phenomenon. Canadian international teams that have Crosby are always exceptional. Without him, not so much. His leadership skills lift teams up to his level. I'm not saying that Svechnikov is in the same stratosphere - there is not enough information yet to know. But there are some elements there.

Crosby was 7th in tournament scoring. What standard are you using to judge him as far-and-away the tournament's best player?

 

[Zine]

I have no idea what tournaments you are talking about where Crosby didn't stand alone as the best player. He certainly was the best in the 2010 and 2014 Olympics, the 2015 WC, and the 2016 World Cup, he literally stood alone at the top. That is also true of the 2005 WJC, although any competition would have come from Ovechkin and Malkin, not a Canadian. Lindros was probably more hyped, but he didn't even come close to achieving what Crosby has, and as leader, he was more divisive and selfish than any more favorable judgment.

Crosby wasn't even Canada's go-to center at the 2005 WJC. That was Jeff Carter if I recall correctly.

 

[Fantomas]

I have no idea what tournaments you are talking about where Crosby didn't stand alone as the best player. He certainly was the best in the 2010 and 2014 Olympics

 

[malkinfan]

Crosby is the most fortuitous player in the existence of hockey. Every team he plays on there are guys who outplay him but he ends up winning the trophy. Mega CIA level propaganda to give him the Conn smythe this past season when Kessel and Murray carried the team most of the time. Olympics he was dog sh*** the whole tournament then had one good shift he becomes a hero. Malkin is more a player than Crosby could ever dream of being. Too bad OV doesnt land on good teams.

 

[Yakushev72]

Crosby was 7th in tournament scoring. What standard are you using to judge him as far-and-away the tournament's best player?

That's a meaningless statistic, especially considering the fact that he was only 17 at the time. He was hyped at the time as the next Great One, and just knowing he is a teammate is a huge psychological advantage. He was hyped as the great star and attraction coming to hockey, and he lived up to it fully. Probably Jeff Carter or Bergeron were the leading scorers, but do you really consider them to be generational talents on a level with Howe, Hull, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. I don't either, but Crosby is considered to be of a level with the Gods of hockey. You're entitled to your opinion, but I would love to know who you consider to be a better player at the 2005 tournament.

Look at the World Cup this year. At the end of 2, it looked like Russia might challenge Canada, but then Crosby took over, just like he does in every major tournament, and personally crushed Russia. Marchand was just the innocent bystander who tapped in the perfect setups that Crosby created. Look at how Crosby misses about half of the year every year in the NHL, and still comes out on top or right next to it in the scoring totals. Just like this year - he's probably missed half the year with injuries but still leads the league in goals, and is probably on top in overall scoring as well (too lazy to check). Can't believe I have to defend Crosby as being alone on top!

 

[Yakushev72]

Crosby is the most fortuitous player in the existence of hockey. Every team he plays on there are guys who outplay him but he ends up winning the trophy. Mega CIA level propaganda to give him the Conn smythe this past season when Kessel and Murray carried the team most of the time. Olympics he was dog sh*** the whole tournament then had one good shift he becomes a hero. Malkin is more a player than Crosby could ever dream of being. Too bad OV doesnt land on good teams.

I credit Malkin with one great international tournament, the 2012 WC. Other than that, Malkin has stunk the rink up in every other important tournament, especially Sochi, where his erratic and disjointed play ruined Russia's chances to advance to the Semis on home ice. Just as in this year's World Cup, Malkin is of such little value that it really isn't important if he shows up or decides to stay home.

 

[Fantomas]

That's a meaningless statistic, especially considering the fact that he was only 17 at the time. He was hyped at the time as the next Great One, and just knowing he is a teammate is a huge psychological advantage. He was hyped as the great star and attraction coming to hockey, and he lived up to it fully. Probably Jeff Carter or Bergeron were the leading scorers, but do you really consider them to be generational talents on a level with Howe, Hull, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. I don't either, but Crosby is considered to be of a level with the Gods of hockey. You're entitled to your opinion, but I would love to know who you consider to be a better player at the 2005 tournament.

I am not saying that points provides objective evidence of anything. But what is your evidence outside of your own qualitative assessment? What is your evidence specifically for the "far and away" claim?

I think you could argue that Crosby was the best player in the 2005 tournament (which is debatable), but you go overboard when you say that Crosby is "far and away" better than anyone (he just isn't Gretzky), and especially when you claim that about some of the other mentioned tournaments.

 

[kp61c]

I credit Malkin with one great international tournament, the 2012 WC. Other than that, Malkin has stunk the rink up in every other important tournament, especially Sochi, where his erratic and disjointed play ruined Russia's chances to advance to the Semis on home ice. Just as in this year's World Cup, Malkin is of such little value that it really isn't important if he shows up or decides to stay home.

good point. no only that, he usually looks like he's giving everyone a big favour when he plays for the nt. ovechkin usually plays like crap for the nt team too.

 

[kp61c]

Frankly, Sokolov simply isn't good enough, especially for a purely offensive player.

Popugayev and Kostin are too raw and inexperienced. But, again, I would've liked to have seen Abramov, Chebykin and Smirnov on the extended roster. Oh well, we have Trenin, Urakov, Li, and Kotlyarevskiy instead.

they are not very good to play in the wjc. it's not like bragin didn't give abramov, for example, an opportunity to prove himself. he played like a bum. case closed.

 

[Fantomas]

they are not very good to play in the wjc. it's not like bragin didn't give abramov, for example, an opportunity to prove himself. he played like a bum. case closed.

I think Abramov played hard, but just couldn't establish any chemistry with his linemates. He also looked a little small along the boards.

I still would have liked to see him get an invite. And he has been hot as of late.

 

[Yakushev72]

I am not saying that points provides objective evidence of anything. But what is your evidence outside of your own qualitative assessment? What is your evidence specifically for the "far and away" claim?

I think you could argue that Crosby was the best player in the 2005 tournament (which is debatable), but you go overboard when you say that Crosby is "far and away" better than anyone (he just isn't Gretzky), and especially when you claim that about some of the other mentioned tournaments.

Maybe "far and away" is excessive. Its not something I can prove one way or another. And its not as if I'm some kind of big Crosby fan. I hate the guy! He's a nemesis who usually spoils a tournament for me. But give him credit for being the superstar who puts up, rather than having to shut up, like our guys Ovechkin and Malkin. Malkin might be the one player in all of hockey who is on the same level as him for sheer talent (maybe McDavid and Matthews will be there soon enough), but the difference is that Crosby is able to marry his extraordinary talent with will and confidence enough to seize control of a crucial game and win it for his team, while Malkin has a huge leadership deficit, and uses his immense talent to just skate around aimlessly.

I am now completely convinced that Svechnikov is the next Russian superstar. My fear is that someone will ruin it and ultimately reduce it for him, particularly some North American coach who will urge him to "hit" and "muck" and "take a run at someone." But his talent is jaw-dropping, and he seems to have that Crosby-like trait of asserting himself and scoring goals when they are needed. Please, God, don't let some coach or bad decision ruin him!

 

[Yakushev72]

good point. no only that, he usually looks like he's giving everyone a big favour when he plays for the nt. ovechkin usually plays like crap for the nt team too.

Isn't it amazing how North American posters often say that Russia has an almost unfair advantage because they are able to recruit Ovechkin and Malkin for the WC, when their actual production shows that they have nothing to worry about!

 

[Fantomas]

Maybe "far and away" is excessive. Its not something I can prove one way or another. And its not as if I'm some kind of big Crosby fan. I hate the guy! He's a nemesis who usually spoils a tournament for me. But give him credit for being the superstar who puts up, rather than having to shut up, like our guys Ovechkin and Malkin. Malkin might be the one player in all of hockey who is on the same level as him for sheer talent (maybe McDavid and Matthews will be there soon enough), but the difference is that Crosby is able to marry his extraordinary talent with will and confidence enough to seize control of a crucial game and win it for his team, while Malkin has a huge leadership deficit, and uses his immense talent to just skate around aimlessly.

I am now completely convinced that Svechnikov is the next Russian superstar. My fear is that someone will ruin it and ultimately reduce it for him, particularly some North American coach who will urge him to "hit" and "muck" and "take a run at someone." But his talent is jaw-dropping, and he seems to have that Crosby-like trait of asserting himself and scoring goals when they are needed. Please, God, don't let some coach or bad decision ruin him!

Would love to see Svechnikov and Knyazev put it together and excel. Russia could use a superstar prospect at F and D.

 

[Caser]

So we won Denmark 2-1 in OT in the first pre-tournament game. Goals were scored by Rubtsov (assists: Tyanulin, Volkov) and Trenin (assist: Korostelev).

Lines:

Sukhachyov

Kudako-Zborovskiy
Voronkov-Volkov
Dronov-Sidorov
Chmykhov-Fazylzyanov

Korostelev-Trenin-Guryanov
Rubtsov-Alexeyev-Tyanulin
Yurtaikin-Belyayev-Li
Karnaukhov-Kvartalnov-Urakov

 

[kp61c]

So we won Denmark 2-1 in OT in the first pre-tournament game. Goals were scored by Rubtsov (assists: Tyanulin, Volkov) and Trenin (assist: Korostelev).

Lines:

Sukhachyov

Kudako-Zborovskiy
Voronkov-Volkov
Dronov-Sidorov
Chmykhov-Fazylzyanov

Korostelev-Trenin-Guryanov
Rubtsov-Alexeyev-Tyanulin
Yurtaikin-Belyayev-Li
Karnaukhov-Kvartalnov-Urakov

that team makes me sad

 

[Caser]

Judging by that lineup, it looks like Yurtaikin, Belyayev, Li, Dronov and Kudako are main candidates to be the last roster cuts.

 

[Yakushev72]

Judging by that lineup, it looks like Yurtaikin, Belyayev, Li, Dronov and Kudako are main candidates to be the last roster cuts.

I like Yurtaikin and hope they keep him. The rest: adios, amigos!