With hindsight, do you sign Briere again?

[Protest]

In hindsight I probably would not have signed him. He is a good guy, and a good player so it's not like I really regret it. I think he played well enough to live up to his contract... as much as a high priced free agent can.

But the fact is he was our 3rd best center who made more money than anyone else on the team. At the time no one really thought Richards was going to turn out to be our best player. He was looked at similarly to the way Laughton is now, though he was believed to have a higher offensive upside. It was thought that it would be 1)Briere, 2)Carter, 3)Richards down the middle, but it turned out being the other way around.

If we had allocated that $6.5 mil to a 3rd line center, and a goalie we probably would have been better off in the long run. The question is what goalie. Was there a goalie available that we could have signed? I don't know off the top of my head.

 

[Garbage Goal]

In hindsight I probably would not have signed him. He is a good guy, and a good player so it's not like I really regret it. I think he played well enough to live up to his contract... as much as a high priced free agent can.

But the fact is he was our 3rd best center who made more money than anyone else on the team. At the time no one really thought Richards was going to turn out to be our best player. He was looked at similarly to the way Laughton is now, though he was believed to have a higher offensive upside. It was thought that it would be 1)Briere, 2)Carter, 3)Richards down the middle, but it turned out being the other way around.

If we had allocated that $6.5 mil to a 3rd line center, and a goalie we probably would have been better off in the long run. The question is what goalie. Was there a goalie available that we could have signed? I don't know off the top of my head.

Don't forget trade options would have been easier as well since Briere's contract was basically unable to be moved.

 

[Random Forest]

It's not like I should need to mention anyone. Common sense says 6.5 mil is a lot of cap space and common sense says there was a lot of open opportunities that we could have spent it in a duration of six NHL seasons. Any Flyers fan also knows that during Holmgren's tenure, which also includes Briere's tenure, we've had lots of cap problems.

Would you erase Timonen's contract if you could go back in time? I mean, how do you know we wouldn't have won a Cup if we never signed Timonen? Isn't that your logic?

Because any cap trouble we've had in those six years has been just as much his fault as it was Briere's. If you answer yes, then I'll respect your opinion and appreciate your logical consistency. Answer no, and your argument falls apart again.

 

[Protest]

Would you erase Timonen's contract if you could go back in time? I mean, how do you know we wouldn't have won a Cup if we never signed Timonen? Isn't that your logic?

Because any cap trouble we've had in those six years has been just as much his fault as it was Briere's. If you answer yes, then I'll respect your opinion and appreciate your logical consistency. Answer no, and your argument falls apart again.

The thing is we didn't have two other dmen that were better than Timonen. That's the only reason I wouldn't have signed Briere. Richards and Carter turned out to be better.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Would you erase Timonen's contract if you could go back in time? I mean, how do you know we wouldn't have won a Cup if we never signed Timonen? Isn't that your logic?

Because any cap trouble we've had in those six years has been just as much his fault as it was Briere's. If you answer yes, then I'll respect your opinion and appreciate your logical consistency. Answer no, and your argument falls apart again.

Actually, Timonen was better at his position and had a far bigger positive impact on the team then Briere did. So I'm not sure about him.

 

[The Couturier Effect]

Actually, Timonen was better at his position and had a far bigger positive impact on the team then Briere did. So I'm not sure about him.

We didn't win with him though. That's your logic right?

 

[Garbage Goal]

We didn't win with him though. That's your logic right?

For Briere, yes. Briere wasn't a number one two-way d-man anchor on this team though and there also weren't two d-men better then Timonen on our team at any point. Timonen was also effective every season whereas Briere was not.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I think Briere's being quite overrated here to be put up there with Timonen. Timonen has been our mainstay number one d-man capable of great two-way play for the entirety of his career here. He's also been considered a borderline top 10 d-man league-wide for most of his duration here. Briere was nowhere near that good at his respective position and he was the complete opposite of a two-way player. He was completely one-dimensional in that all he was ever good for was offense and regardless of when he did or did not produce offensively he was always bad defensively, mediocre at face-offs, and took bad crosschecking penalties on occasion.

EDIT: And like the other guy said, we've had a glut of centers a lot of the time Briere was here. In fact, we've had three centers better then him with certainty in Giroux, Carter, and Richards despite the fact that Briere was always the highest paid. Timonen was always worth his money and was always our best d-man.

 

[Random Forest]

For Briere, yes. Briere wasn't a number one two-way d-man anchor on this team though and there also weren't two d-men better then Timonen on our team at any point. Timonen was also effective every season whereas Briere was not.

But can you tell me that we couldn't have spent that 6.3m more effectively had we not signed Timonen? Maybe we could have had a better defender! You have to be consistent. If you use what ifs for Briere, you gotta use them for Timonen, too, no matter how good he's been.


That's your argument. And it doesn't make much sense. Both Briere and Timonen put us in a better chance to succeed than had they not been signed. I have Briere's post season records to prove my point. You have dreamy "what if" scenarios to prove your point. In your hypotheticals, it's pretty damn easy to say, "We could have done better than Briere". Well, we still acquired Pronger while Briere was on the books. We still offered contracts to Parise and Suter while Briere was on the books. We still offersheeted Weber while Briere was on the books.

How much did Briere really get in the way of if we still did all that?

 

[Garbage Goal]

But can you tell me that we couldn't have spent that 6.3m more effectively had we not signed Timonen? Maybe we could have had a better defender! You have to be consistent. If you use what ifs for Briere, you gotta use them for Timonen, too, no matter how good he's been.


That's your argument. And it doesn't make much sense. Both Briere and Timonen put us in a better chance to succeed than had they not been signed. I have Briere's post season records to prove my point. You have dreamy "what if" scenarios to prove your point. In your hypotheticals, it's pretty damn easy to say, "We could have done better than Briere". Well, we still acquired Pronger while Briere was on the books. We still offered contracts to Parise and Suter while Briere was on the books. We still offersheeted Weber while Briere was on the books.

How much did Briere really get in the way of if we still did all that?

Are you forgetting the trades of guys like Gagne for cap reasons and all the cap gaffes?

Either way, I've presented my point so I'm good.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I definitely wouldn't. First we paid an awful lot for not so great production. Second, I'm not convinced that with how horrible he is defensively that we really even got a net plus over the years. Third, he had to be bought out two years before his contract ended. That's not a good sign.

The only real argument is the playoff points. I'm just not really convinced that he actually consciously "stepped it up" in the playoffs. His production there really tailed off anyway.

 

[Random Forest]

Are you forgetting the trades of guys like Gagne for cap reasons and all the cap gaffes?

Either way, I've presented my point so I'm good.

So you wouldn't have signed Briere so we could have kept Gagne? Interesting.

I never said Holmgren was good with managing the cap-- my point is that Briere's value to the team in the last six years has been worth whatever finagling we've had to do. Same goes for Timonen.

 

[Garbage Goal]

So you wouldn't have signed Briere so we could have kept Gagne? Interesting.

I never said Holmgren was good with managing the cap-- my point is that Briere's value to the team in the last six years has been worth whatever finagling we've had to do. Same goes for Timonen.

Now you're just stuffing words in my mouth while fixating on one statement. Gagne was obviously just an example.

I'm done here. Other posters have agreed they wouldn't do it and there's no persuading some of you so I'm just gonna take my leave now.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Would you erase Timonen's contract if you could go back in time? I mean, how do you know we wouldn't have won a Cup if we never signed Timonen? Isn't that your logic?

Because any cap trouble we've had in those six years has been just as much his fault as it was Briere's. If you answer yes, then I'll respect your opinion and appreciate your logical consistency. Answer no, and your argument falls apart again.

Timonen lived up to his contract as a number one defensemen for basically the entire contract.

Briere was a one dimensional second liner/fringe first liner paid like an elite number one center.

 

[GKJ]

I am the 3rd no. To me this is a clear cut no just as most of you believe this is a clear cut yes.

While Briere's contract wasn't the disaster that the other two centers received that summer, it was the beginning of Holmgren's cap problems. What has constantly been overlooked is that Holmgren had too many dollars committed to the center position and Briere was the most expensive while being the least valuable of their centers. He was their highest paid player while never coming close to being their best player except one year in the playoffs and perhaps his first season here.

It's also overlooked that they did not really need a number 1 center. They were simply too impatient to let Richards and Carter develop after only two seasons in the league. They had a short term problem and fixed it with an expensive long term solution. It was simply bad business in terms of the cap.

I get why why fans are so fond of him because he is a flashy player, but the cap geek in me hated that deal from day one.

Do I do that deal again? Hell no without hesitation. That $6.5M could have gone towards another defender which is what they needed and constantly chased (nothing ever changes). I find it ironic that people ***** about their constant focus on centers instead of defense yet fail to realize how problematic Briere's contract was.

The worst case scenario if they didn't sign Briere is that they would have ended up with Doughty or Stamkos. I don't think there is a person alive that would take him over either of those players.

Don't think that's enough to make it a 'no.' All teams need three strong centers. I don't think it was the expectation of the franchise to have Richards become a point-per-game player, it just worked out that way.

I don't think it was a great deal, but the alternatives were Drury and Gomez, and the Flyers weren't walking out of that summer without one of them, so it may as well been the one whose career didn't take a complete nosedive. Although, the Rangers conned the Habs into giving them McDonagh for Gomez.

 

[BernieParent]

At Haute Couturier's challenge, I am reworking the player movement in the scenario where the Flyers didn't sign Briere. Instead, with the amazing power of 20/20 hindsight, I had them sign Brian Rafalski () to a 5-year, $31 million contract in 2007, did the Pitkanen/Sanderson/3rd trade to the Oilers for Jason Smith and Lupul, and sent Calder to Chicago for Lasse Kukkonen and drafted Jamie Benn with the 3rd (Benn went in the 5th round).

My line-up so far is:

Gagne / Richards / Knuble
Prospal / Carter / Kapanen
Hartnell / Umberger / Upshall
Eager / Potulny / Ruzicka

Timonen / Rafalski
Coburn / Smith
Jones / Hatcher
Kukkonen

Niittymaki / M Biron

I'll update as I go through the seasons.

 

[Sombastate]

Absolutely. 2010 was one of the greatest experiences of my life, and he helped make that possible

 

[flyersfan187]

They could have just signed Gomez or Drury instead... Briere was a great signing and gave the Flyers many good years. It is a pity with the way it had to end. I honestly think he had to be playing injured the past season.

 

[cheesesteakarmor]

At Haute Couturier's challenge, I am reworking the player movement in the scenario where the Flyers didn't sign Briere. Instead, with the amazing power of 20/20 hindsight, I had them sign Brian Rafalski () to a 5-year, $31 million contract in 2007, did the Pitkanen/Sanderson/3rd trade to the Oilers for Jason Smith and Lupul, and sent Calder to Chicago for Lasse Kukkonen and drafted Jamie Benn with the 3rd (Benn went in the 5th round).

My line-up so far is:

Gagne / Richards / Knuble
Prospal / Carter / Kapanen
Hartnell / Umberger / Upshall
Eager / Potulny / Ruzicka

Timonen / Rafalski
Coburn / Smith
Jones / Hatcher
Kukkonen

Niittymaki / M Biron

I'll update as I go through the seasons.

Am I off a year, or wasn't the 4th line centered by Jimmy Dowd?

In any case, I would probably resign him again. We knew Briere's game when we signed him, he was never anything more than average defensively. The main tradeoff we made was that we had one exceptional center (Richards) and lacked the kind of defense you want from a top pivot to create mismatches. Briere did that offensively, but when he or his linemates was not producing, those mismatches often worked the other way.

The unfortunate part was that we were often troubled to match him with one defensively sound winger to compensate. If Briere had that during his tenure here, I suspect we would not be having this discussion.

 

[StandingCow]

Absolutely. He was beast mode in the playoffs.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Yes, I would have. He proved to be the best center in the market (Gomez and Drury busted) and he helped us through playoff series'.

 

[achdumeingute]

The thing is we didn't have two other dmen that were better than Timonen. That's the only reason I wouldn't have signed Briere. Richards and Carter turned out to be better.

And at the time, we didn't have 2 better centers. Had one more year occured before Briere hit UFA, maybe we don't sign him. Maybe our 2 other centers don't breakout that year if Briere isn't here.

This hindsight stuff is always kind of annoying.

I'd do about a gazillion things different in my life if I knew what I knew today.

 

[Flyerfan808]

In hindsight, not only was he the best option available. You could argue that he has continued to be a top 6 forward on this team even today and would be a top 6 forward on most teams in the league.

If the cap were not shrinking, Danny Briere would still be a member of this team.

Best of luck to him and his family, wherever he may end up.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Yes, I would have. He proved to be the best center in the market (Gomez and Drury busted) and he helped us through playoff series'.

i think many people around here wanted Drury over Briere. Myself included.

 

[healthyscratch]

People still failing to account for being the worst team in the league when we signed him that summer. It wasnt exactly that attractive of a spot to land in. That has a lot to do with how much money we had to throw his way. Why is everyone ignoring that little fact? He was paid $10m in his first year. When you suck, you have to overpay even more for a FA.