Post-Game Talk: Wings start the homestand with a win over the Champs.

[Dotter]

Stamkos was the only thing that would have made that move worth it. Holland couldn't even get him on the phone. 10 years ago he does, 15-20 years ago he definitely does. Now...

And I'd say there's a pretty good chance Chychrun ends up better, fewer teams passed on him after all. And he was ranked very highly at one point.

Is this how you analyze prospects?

 

[obey86]

Whose opinion did you expect me to express?

What we gave up for Cole was a disgruntled prospect with a medical condition while dropping a few positions in the draft. Oh, and some now 24 year old defender who's yet to play a single game in the NHL. If Cole had managed to stay healthy he could've been the difference in the playoffs series for us and that's worth it to me.

At least we agree on the Legwand trade, though. If ever there was a "lets throw assets away so we can have another 1st round exit" trade, that was it. I'll always remember Legwand for being the guy who gave Nyquist the puck for his great goal against Tampa but it was pretty clear that he was already spent when he came to us. That was a waste.

Meh, Legwand was having the 2nd most productive year of his career when the Wings traded for him.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So the outcome doesn't matter? I mean the vast majority of trades are good in theory, no? Or they wouldn't be made. Doesn't what ultimately happens after matter the most?

Totally disagree on Datsyuk trade. Odds of Stamkos hitting free agency to begin with were low, and we had no draw to get him in the event that he did. Which was evident by him not even wanting to speak with us.

And if we had signed Stamkos, would you have criticized Holland for acquiring an injury-prone player?

Datsyuk trade was fantastic. Odds are even if Datsyuk was staying Holland would have made essentially the same trade anyway, just excluding Datsyuk's contract. The fact he cleared up a bunch of cap space that enabled us to land Nielsen and Vanek is just icing on the cake.

 

[Frk It]

And if we had signed Stamkos, would you have criticized Holland for acquiring an injury-prone player?

Datsyuk trade was fantastic. Odds are even if Datsyuk was staying Holland would have made essentially the same trade anyway, just excluding Datsyuk's contract. The fact he cleared up a bunch of cap space that enabled us to land Nielsen and Vanek is just icing on the cake.

No, and If you want to go and look at my posts from the summer I was telling people saying we shouldn't sign Stamkos if he hits free agency that they were crazy. But I also saw 0 reason Stamkos would want to come here.

Also you know... age and all.

Datsyuk trade comes down to opinion of Chychrun, and yours and mine are well documented on that by now. Arizona agrees to the trade at that price only if Chychrun is there, IMO. Their GM almost took him at 7, so they agreed to take Datsyuk's contract to get what they considered two top 10 guys in one draft. Far too early to say who has won or lost.

 

[Wood Stick]

No, and If you want to go and look at my posts from the summer I was telling people saying we shouldn't sign Stamkos if he hits free agency that they were crazy. But I also saw 0 reason Stamkos would want to come here.

Also you know... age and all.

Datsyuk trade comes down to opinion of Chychrun, and yours and mine are well documented on that by now. Arizona agrees to the trade at that price only if Chychrun is there, IMO. Their GM almost took him at 7, so they agreed to take Datsyuk's contract to get what they considered two top 10 guys in one draft. Far too early to say who has won or lost.

Yet you continue to bring up that trade when you know damn well we drafted a raw prospect with big upside. I think many are forgetting we also got Filip Hronek from that trade as well.

 

[ricky0034]

Whose opinion did you expect me to express?

What we gave up for Cole was a disgruntled prospect with a medical condition while dropping a few positions in the draft. Oh, and some now 24 year old defender who's yet to play a single game in the NHL. If Cole had managed to stay healthy he could've been the difference in the playoffs series for us and that's worth it to me.

At least we agree on the Legwand trade, though. If ever there was a "lets throw assets away so we can have another 1st round exit" trade, that was it. I'll always remember Legwand for being the guy who gave Nyquist the puck for his great goal against Tampa but it was pretty clear that he was already spent when he came to us. That was a waste.

funny how it's okay to talk with hindsight about what we gave up in the trade but not about what we got

also Janmark may be going through some health issues right now but he did put up 15 goals and 29 points in 73 games as a rookie last year(and 5 points in 12 games in the Playoffs) and Nill himself he has an 80% chance of fully recovering from his knee issues

i'd also call moving from the 48th to the 73rd pick a lot more than "dropping a few positions in the draft" I don't consider 25 to be a few that's almost an entire rounds worth of picks

 

[Wood Stick]

funny how it's okay to talk with hindsight about what we gave up in the trade but not about what we got

also Janmark may be going through some health issues right now but he did put up 15 goals and 29 points in 73 games as a rookie last year(and 5 points in 12 games in the Playoffs) and Nill himself he has an 80% chance of fully recovering from his knee issues

i'd also call moving from the 48th to the 73rd pick a lot more than "dropping a few positions in the draft" I don't consider 25 to be a few that's almost an entire rounds worth of picks

Thing with Janmark, Jarnkrok, etc, where do these guys make the team? We have guys like Darren Helm as fourth liners. Dallas, Nashville, etc lack depth and that's how these guys get those chances. Detroit was going fully towards a playoff run, which is why we got David Legwand. Nashville was tanking and could afford to put Calle Jarnkrok in game in and out. Contending teams thriving towards the playoffs (we are guys) really cannot afford to see what x player has if we currently have better chances with other players for example.

Calle Jarnkrok going to get exposed btw? He and Elias Lindholm were really supposed to be something great for Swedish hockey and Jarnkrok looks like a third line C and Lindholm's development has kinda looked like a 2C.

 

[ricky0034]

Thing with Janmark, Jarnkrok, etc, where do these guys make the team? We have guys like Darren Helm as fourth liners. Dallas, Nashville, etc lack depth and that's how these guys get those chances. Detroit was going fully towards a playoff run, which is why we got David Legwand. Nashville was tanking and could afford to put Calle Jarnkrok in game in and out. Contending teams thriving towards the playoffs (we are guys) really cannot afford to see what x player has if we currently have better chances with other players for example.

Calle Jarnkrok going to get exposed btw? He and Elias Lindholm were really supposed to be something great for Swedish hockey and Jarnkrok looks like a third line C and Lindholm's development has kinda looked like a 2C.

that sounds nice and all but it wouldn't exactly be tough to give someone like Janmark a shot if they really wanted to,maybe not out of camp but just look at this year for example

this is a team that keeps putting Luke Glendening of all people on the 3rd line,they keep trotting out Riley Sheahan over and over etc etc

also come on with this "contending teams" nonsense,we're talking about last year here

....Dallas had 109 points last year while the Wings had 93

 

[Pavels Dog]

Thing about trades like Cole/Zidlicky/etc is that Holland had to do something. He couldn't just sit on his hands while Dats and Z's last good years were running out. We had a legit chance to make some kind of run in those years. Things didn't turn out that way but I think everyone knows damn well that if Holland did nothing, he would have been criticized for that as much if not more than he's criticized for the trades he did make.

Now we're in a different scenario and this whole discussion started with a question of when Holland made his last good trade. Well the thing is, rentals are almost never a "good" trade. But teams gearing up for the playoffs do make those trades. We're not one of those teams now though. Now we get the benefit of being on the other side, selling short-term assets for long-term assets. And hopefully we can actually do that and get something better out of it than a Jarnkrok/Backman/Janmark/etc.

 

[Claypool]

Janmark, Backman, and Jarnkrok felt entitled to play hockey in the NHL and didn't want to go through Detroit's development system, that's why they were shipped out. I still believe to this day Jarnkrok could have been a top 6 forward if he had put his time in Grand Rapids like everyone else. Now he'll forever be a bottom six guy.

 

[ricky0034]

Janmark, Backman, and Jarnkrok felt entitled to play hockey in the NHL and didn't want to go through Detroit's development system, that's why they were shipped out. I still believe to this day Jarnkrok could have been a top 6 forward if he had put his time in Grand Rapids like everyone else. Now he'll forever be a bottom six guy.

this is nothing more than a mix of speculation and outright lies(the speculation on Backman didn't even have anything to do with the NHL it was that he wanted to actually get icetime in the AHL instead of getting benched)

 

[Heaton]

Janmark, Backman, and Jarnkrok felt entitled to play hockey in the NHL and didn't want to go through Detroit's development system, that's why they were shipped out. I still believe to this day Jarnkrok could have been a top 6 forward if he had put his time in Grand Rapids like everyone else. Now he'll forever be a bottom six guy.

It's also possible that all three of those guys just weren't very good and fans overrated them (basically every team overrates their own prospects). I still feel that Jarnkrok had more value than what he was traded for.

I also don't think the Wings have done a very good job drafting for a long time. Since we've been getting some higher picks it's been getting better, but for a long time the Wings decided to draft some pretty safe players with very limited upside and it's shown based on the results.

However, the Wings development strategy is completely outdated and now that they're forced to play their kids earlier, we've seen that they can play and play better than the scrubs that they overpay. It was a good strategy when the Wings were an elite team, not so much when the kids are clearly better than some of the players playing in front of them.

 

[avssuc]

In case you wanted to watch Crosby get laid out over and over again.

Love it, can't stop watching

 

[Dotter]

This team has shown a bit more edge since Abby's return. I thinks a bigger piece to the team than many here will acknowledge.

Wings are just funner to watch when he's playing. And Helm too

 

[Claypool]

this is nothing more than a mix of speculation and outright lies(the speculation on Backman didn't even have anything to do with the NHL it was that he wanted to actually get icetime in the AHL instead of getting benched)

Janmark didn't want to come over to NA to play in the minors during the 2014-15 seasons. He signed back in Sweden to play for Frolunda. It's pretty clear he wasn't coming over to play in Grand Rapids ever. So, bye bye!

Backman complained about ice time and being scratched, making threats to return to Sweden the following season. If Backman had put in the time and effort he'd be in the NHL right now instead of somewhere on a bus in Texas. Did you ever read about Jensen complaining about opportunities?

Holland said Mattias is going through a transition that, while difficult now, can make him a better player in the long term.

“I know he’s been disappointed and frustrated,†Holland said. “When you play regularly in the Swedish Elite League and you come to North America and you’re a healthy scratch in the American League, you feel like you’re going backward.

“I’ve been in the game since 1975 in pro hockey, for 10 years as a minor league goaltender. Adversity and competition are wonderful things, and learning to fight through the adversity, learning to fight through the competition, learning to compete every day in practice and wait for your opportunity to get in the lineup and take somebody’s job, that’s what we’ve tried to build the Red Wings on."

Jarnkrok never demanded a trade but it was clear he wasn't going to stick around in NA playing in the minors forever.

TSN's Bob McKenzie and myself have all heard rumors--from people that had no benefit in lying to us--that Jarnkrok was considering heading back to Sweden to play for his hometown team, Brynas IF in Gavle.

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...nd-trade-and-calle-jarnkroks-take-on-the-move

 

[Dotter]

Claypool is right.

All those players had no future here. And by looking at them now, where their careers went, it proves they weren't worth anything much. Actually, I am surprised Ken Holland even salvaged the return he did out of them. They are literally no loss to the team what-so-ever.

People should be more mad about Landon Ferraro being a bust. He was drafted with the damn 32nd overall and amounted to nothing and returned nothing. Glad to see AA becoming what Ferraro was suppose to be.

 

[Heaton]

Jarnkrok never demanded a trade but it was clear he wasn't going to stick around in NA playing in the minors forever.
http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...nd-trade-and-calle-jarnkroks-take-on-the-move

Don't blame him, there's no factual evidence that supports that this development strategy works for every single player. The longer the Wings bury players in the minors the less chance these players have to earn any real money.

This is a young mans league now, you can see it on every team, you need to incorporate younger players in as quickly as you can.

 

[Claypool]

I also don't think the Wings have done a very good job drafting for a long time.

Well I disagree with you completely.

 

[Heaton]

Claypool is right.

All those players had no future here. And by looking at them now, where their careers went, it proves they weren't worth anything much. Actually, I am surprised Ken Holland even salvaged the return he did out of them. They are literally no loss to the team what-so-ever.

People should be more mad about Landon Ferraro being a bust. He was drafted with the damn 32nd overall and amounted to nothing and returned nothing. Glad to see AA becoming what Ferraro was suppose to be.

Agreed. The Wings drafting and development has been subpar for a long time now. We've gotten quite a few role players, but nothing worth writing home about (and we still overpay bottom 6 players even when our prospects can take their roles for cheaper).

Hopefully people are correct about Tyler Wright, but he's had the benefit of drafting higher than anyone in long time in this organization. I want to see some of our 2nd round picks and later turn into more than just role players.

 

[Heaton]

Well I disagree with you completely.

The Wings are good at drafting and developing bottom 6 players, but so are the majority of the league, that's not all that difficult. The Wings haven't drafted anyone of consequence in the 2nd round or later in a long time.

 

[The Zermanator]

Is this how you analyze prospects?

Well hey, you're the one who is very often reminding posters that we are on a message board and that our opinions don't matter, certainly not relative to the opinions of any actual NHL front office personnel. Cholowski was passed on by a handful more NHL teams than Chychrun. NHL teams spend thousands upon thousands on scouting departments dedicated solely to evaluating young talent, and how they spend their limited draft picks will have a major impact on their team's future. More teams passed on Cholowski than Chychrun. And Chychrun was a top prospect at some point who fell (so did Fowler and look how that ended up). Chychrun has played in the NHL at 18, while Cholowski dips his toes in college hockey. The future is unpredictable, but Chychrun has much more tailwind than Cholo does.

I don't know, I have a job and a life. I don't have time to amass personal assessments of all of these young players, and I doubt anybody around here does as much as they like to pretend they do. Doesn't mean using the assessments of professionals whose sole job is evaluating prospects can't have merit.

And this is all beside the point anyway. I don't think Ken Holland pulled off the Datsyuk trade because he wanted Cholo more than Chychrun. He did it because it would allow him the cap space to go after Stamkos while still being able to pick a dman in the first round. Get a lesser player in the draft but also free up a lot of space to make a big move. Well, Holland couldn't even get Stamkos on the phone, so that's that. And then what does he do with the space? He spends it all on players on the wrong side of 30 on a team that is nowhere near contending. Result? #1 in payroll and close to dead last in the league.

But sure, go ahead and continue to desperately scramble for any reason to excuse the man's job performance. I mean, when people are so starved of any positive examples of Ken Holland's work the past 5 years they have to point to the Cole and Zidlicky trades, that's more damning than anything I could say. Like I said earlier, C-list moves from a C-list GM.

 

[SoupGuru]

I have myself convinced that half of the posters here are on the Red Wings' payroll, paid to hype prospects in hopes of a sweet trade down the road.

 

[14ari13]

This team has shown a bit more edge since Abby's return. I thinks a bigger piece to the team than many here will acknowledge.

Wings are just funner to watch when he's playing. And Helm too

Abby, Mantha and Vanek are big bodies and it helps immensely. This team has many small skilled players, but they are not skilled enough to overcome their shortcomings in size. So yes, in this instance the size matters.
We see how Tatar and Nyquist struggle, but when with Mantha and Z they can produce.

I think we can have better productions from our top 9 if we find the right combinations and get everybody going.


Btw I find it strange that moderators allowed this thread to derail this much. The discussion is all about Holland, trades, picks which has nothing to do with the post game discussion. We actually beat the sc champs, the team which we maybe have the biggest rivalry with.

 

[14ari13]

I have myself convinced that half of the posters here are on the Red Wings' payroll, paid to hype prospects in hopes of a sweet trade down the road.

Smart move by the wings management
Cheap one too.

 

[Henkka]

The Wings are good at drafting and developing bottom 6 players, but so are the majority of the league, that's not all that difficult. The Wings haven't drafted anyone of consequence in the 2nd round or later in a long time.

It's quite funny quote, because usually all low-round picks take years to develop.

And we haven't really drafted Bottom6 players. More of 2nd line talent, or offensive talent, that doesn't fit in the Bottom6.

And they did draft Athanasiou at 4th round 2012. No other organization has drafted as good goal-scorer from lower rounds in last 5 years.

Bertuzzi in 2013. Other sooner than that are too early to tell. Because, again, it takes time to develop.