Post-Game Talk: Wings start the homestand with a win over the Champs.

[HockeyinHD]

This past offseason with Datsyuk's contract.

Erik Cole and Marek Zidlicky

Trading down to get Mantha and Bertuzzi.

Jakub Kindl for a 6th Rounder

But other than those 4, when has he ever traded anything well?

 

[HockeyinHD]

I'd vote for MAF if he was an option.

Winning in the NHL is really hard when your goalies is horrendous.

By the way, MAF is still signed for 2 more years after this one at 5.75. Yowza.

 

[14ari13]

If AA can pan out as a center I'm far less pessimistic.

I think he fits better at wing. Though it might change.

 

[SoupNazi]

I always love beating the Penguins.

 

[Frk It]

This past offseason with Datsyuk's contract.

Erik Cole and Marek Zidlicky

Trading down to get Mantha and Bertuzzi.

Jakub Kindl for a 6th Rounder

How was the Cole trade good? Maybe good in thought, but didn't turn out that way.

Zidlicky was a great rental. Those 0 pts in 6 playoff games made all the difference.

 

[The Zermanator]

How was the Cole trade good? Maybe good in thought, but didn't turn out that way.

Zidlicky was a great rental. Those 0 pts in 6 playoff games made all the difference.

Exactly, and a bunch of C-list moves anyway. Maybe we have a C-list GM now.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not sure how the Datsyuk contract can be considered good at this point considering we didn't use the cap space wisely and the prospect we skipped on may end up being superior all things considered.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

This past offseason with Datsyuk's contract.

Erik Cole and Marek Zidlicky

Trading down to get Mantha and Bertuzzi.

Jakub Kindl for a 6th Rounder

1. we used that cap space to sign one of the top 15 worst deals in the league, that is a fail

2. cole and zidlicky were awful and provided ZERO playoff pts(a fact, why is irrelevant)

3. good move

4. good move(equal to trading miller for a 7th or marchenko for a 5th) who cares

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Not sure how the Datsyuk contract can be considered good at this point considering we didn't use the cap space wisely and the prospect we skipped on may end up being superior all things considered.

Didnt we sign vanek with the dats money. Or did we just use it all on extensions

We could use that dats trade. Trade vanek. And then have the next red wings great cause of that pick

I hate trades that you can't say are good or bad for a while

 

[FlashyG]

1. we used that cap space to sign one of the top 15 worst deals in the league, that is a fail

2. cole and zidlicky were awful and provided ZERO playoff pts(a fact, why is irrelevant)

3. good move

4. good move(equal to trading miller for a 7th or marchenko for a 5th) who cares

1. What he did with the cap space has no bearing on the value of the trade, but if you want to go that route then you should at least concede that he got Hronek with the extra pick from that trade and he appears to be one of our top prospects right now.

2. I'll concede that those deals were at best a wash. Good trades at the time, but with the ability to look at them in hindsight the Cole trade was a bad one and the Zidlicky one was a wash.

3. Agreed
4. Agreed

I think Holland is a lot better at getting value in trades than he gets credit for, but he's still not great at it and its probably the weakest part of his GM game.

 

[FlashyG]

Not sure how the Datsyuk contract can be considered good at this point considering we didn't use the cap space wisely and the prospect we skipped on may end up being superior all things considered.

Cholowski, Vanek, Neilson and Hronek vs Chychrun?

I don't know how you can say that's a bad trade. Maybe if Chychrun becomes the stud #1 we've been searching for but otherwise that's a great trade for the Wings.

 

[Eastopia]

How was the Cole trade good? Maybe good in thought, but didn't turn out that way.

You can't judge a trade (or any decision at all for that matter) based on things the guy making it couldn't possibly have known when making it. That is an absurd position to take as it would make a 2nd round pick for Erik Karlsson a bad trade for us if he got a career-ending injury in his first game with us. Since they're talking about Holland's ability to make a good trade rather than how any specific trade ended up, "the thought" is all that matters.

This is why I also think that the Datsyuk trade was a good one. Holland wanted Stamkos and moved Pavs' cap hit to have a chance at him. It didn't work out that way but Holland couldn't have known it and at the time it was definitely worth a shot. Certainly a lot better than not moving that contract in such a trade and then finding out that Stamkos would've wanted to come but now he couldn't.

I'd make that trade again without a moment's hesitation regardless of what Holland ended up spending it on instead. That's a separate issue entirely.

 

[Winger98]

Not sure how the Datsyuk contract can be considered good at this point considering we didn't use the cap space wisely and the prospect we skipped on may end up being superior all things considered.

and that Holland essentially blackmailed him to even honor two seasons of it. It seems more like Datsyuk thought he could get $21 million guaranteed from us, skip after a year, pocket $14m of it without playing for it and get paid in Russia. If he really didn't understand the cap implications of it, I'm not sure how such a reading is all that preposterous.

 

[The Zermanator]

Not sure how the Datsyuk contract can be considered good at this point considering we didn't use the cap space wisely and the prospect we skipped on may end up being superior all things considered.

Stamkos was the only thing that would have made that move worth it. Holland couldn't even get him on the phone. 10 years ago he does, 15-20 years ago he definitely does. Now...

And I'd say there's a pretty good chance Chychrun ends up better, fewer teams passed on him after all. And he was ranked very highly at one point.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You can't judge a trade (or any decision at all for that matter) based on things the guy making it couldn't possibly have known when making it. Say if Holland traded a 2nd round pick for Erik Karlsson @ 50% retention, that'd be an amazing trade, right? Well, if Karlsson then suffers a career-ending injury in his first game with us, does that trade suddenly become bad overnight just because it didn't work out for us?

That is an absurd position to take.

I would assume this goes for draft picks or trades that work out as well right?

I mean it has to

you either can or you cant predict the future

you dont get credit for doing it right if you dont lose credit for doing it wrong

thats life

 

[Frk It]

You can't judge a trade (or any decision at all for that matter) based on things the guy making it couldn't possibly have known when making it. That is an absurd position to take as it would make a 2nd round pick for Erik Karlsson a bad trade for us if he got a career-ending injury in his first game with us. Since they're talking about Holland's ability to make a good trade rather than how any specific trade ended up, "the thought" is all that matters.

This is why I also think that the Datsyuk trade was a good one. Holland wanted Stamkos and moved Pavs' cap hit to have a chance at him. It didn't work out that way but Holland couldn't have known it and at the time it was definitely worth a shot. Certainly a lot better than not moving that contract in such a trade and then finding out that Stamkos would've wanted to come but now he couldn't.

I'd make that trade again without a moment's hesitation regardless of what Holland ended up spending it on instead. That's a separate issue entirely.

So the outcome doesn't matter? I mean the vast majority of trades are good in theory, no? Or they wouldn't be made. Doesn't what ultimately happens after matter the most?

Totally disagree on Datsyuk trade. Odds of Stamkos hitting free agency to begin with were low, and we had no draw to get him in the event that he did. Which was evident by him not even wanting to speak with us.

 

[Eastopia]

I would assume this goes for draft picks or trades that work out as well right?

I mean it has to

you either can or you cant predict the future

you dont get credit for doing it right if you dont lose credit for doing it wrong

thats life

Of course it does, but when it works out like that it's a lot "greyer". A career-ending injury like Cole got is easy to say that Holland couldn't have predicted would happen. Is it as easy to say that Holland and his scouting team didn't see the potential in a draft pick/trade that worked out better than expected?

It's just a lot harder to judge in that scenario.

 

[Frk It]

Cholowski, Vanek, Neilson and Hronek vs Chychrun?

I don't know how you can say that's a bad trade. Maybe if Chychrun becomes the stud #1 we've been searching for but otherwise that's a great trade for the Wings.

Could have afforded Vanek even if we had not moved Datsyuk's contract.

Vanek + Chychrun + no terrible Helm contact doesn't sound so bad to me. Especially since second half of Nielsen's contract will probably suck.

 

[Eastopia]

So the outcome doesn't matter? I mean the vast majority of trades are good in theory, no? Or they wouldn't be made. Doesn't what ultimately happens after matter the most?

When judging how a trade ended up, sure, outcome does matter. If Cole, instead of getting a career-ending injury, just stinks up the place, that matters too. But that's not what we're trying to judge here, and that's not what happened.

The topic being discussed was when Holland last made a good trade which means we're talking about his decisions in trades. To judge someone's decision you can only go by what he could be reasonably expected to know when making it. If Cole had sucked you could have argued that Holland failed at his scouting of him, if Cole simply hadn't fit in with the style we play then you could've argued that Holland should've been able to see that. You can't argue that Holland should've known that Cole would suffer a career-ending injury.

So when judging the trade in and of itself, it didn't work out. It was a failure and no one can argue that. Judging Holland's decision to make it, however, is not the same thing.

 

[Frk It]

When judging how a trade ended up, sure, outcome does matter. If Cole, instead of getting a career-ending injury, just stinks up the place, that matters too. But that's not what we're trying to judge here, and that's not what happened.

The topic being discussed was when Holland last made a good trade which means we're talking about his decisions in trades. To judge someone's decision you can only go by what he could be reasonably expected to know when making it. If Cole had sucked you could have argued that Holland failed at his scouting of him, if Cole simply hadn't fit in with the style we play then you could've argued that Holland should've been able to see that. You can't argue that Holland should've known that Cole would suffer a career-ending injury.

So when judging the trade in and of itself, it didn't work out. It was a failure and no one can argue that. Judging Holland's decision to make it, however, is not the same thing.

Erik Cole was a fairly injury prone player who was 36 at the time. There was inherent risk in that decision. Wasn't really a shocking or unpredictable outcome there.

 

[Eastopia]

Erik Cole was a fairly injury prone player who was 36 at the time. There was inherent risk in that decision.

Of course there was inherent risk in that decision, trading is an inherently risky business. It was worth it.

 

[Frk It]

Of course there was inherent risk in that decision, trading is an inherently risky business. It was worth it.

In your opinion.

Actually liked the thought process behind the Zidlicky trade, FWIW. Did not like the Cole trade and hated the Legwand trade.

 

[Wood Stick]

Erik Cole was a fairly injury prone player who was 36 at the time. There was inherent risk in that decision. Wasn't really a shocking or unpredictable outcome there.

It wasn't shocking that he had a career ending injury here? How was Erik Cole injury prone? He was fairy healthy. 10/11 season on, he was fine.

10/11 - 82 games
11/12 - 82 games
12/13 - 37 games (lockout year, 48 game schedule)
13/14 - 75 games
14/15 - Played 57 games prior to the trade.

He was a speedy powerforward that had 18 goals in 57 games. I was surprised what happened, apparently you predicted something like this would happen. Marek Zidlicky had 11 points in in 21 games for the Red Wings.

Trades were fine. I missed the majority of those playoffs sadly as I started a new job but regular season wise, it certainly helped. Team need, he went in the right direction. Many are also forgetting signing Marian Hossa, Ty Conklin (was huge first run), Daniel Alfredsson (left the only team he knew), Jonas Gustavsson (was great here), Mike Green, Frans Nielsen (been very, very consistent), Thomas Vanek, Danny DeKeyser, Jared Coreau, and hell, I like that Steve Ott signing for the league minimum.

Watching this season, I agree with Abdelkader and Helm. I was okay with Abby at the time, but hated that Helm signing. Depth wise, I have him on my fourth line. Frans Nielsen, he's a healthy mule which is on our side during this contract. He's been fantastic despite the **** team.

Jakub Chychrun dropped a bit for some reasons obviously mentioned before. He does have a man's body though, which will make his leap quicker. Give that trade some time, obviously. We drafted a raw prospect, and a fantastic Czech D.

 

[Frk It]

It wasn't shocking that he had a career ending injury here? How was Erik Cole injury prone? He was fairy healthy. 10/11 season on, he was fine.

10/11 - 82 games
11/12 - 82 games
12/13 - 37 games (lockout year, 48 game schedule)
13/14 - 75 games
14/15 - Played 57 games prior to the trade.

He was a speedy powerforward that had 18 goals in 57 games. I was surprised what happened, apparently you predicted something like this would happen. Marek Zidlicky had 11 points in in 21 games for the Red Wings.

Trades were fine. I missed the majority of those playoffs sadly as I started a new job but regular season wise, it certainly helped. Team need, he went in the right direction. Many are also forgetting signing Marian Hossa, Ty Conklin (was huge first run), Daniel Alfredsson (left the only team he knew), Jonas Gustavsson (was great here), Mike Green, Frans Nielsen (been very, very consistent), Thomas Vanek, Danny DeKeyser, Jared Coreau, and hell, I like that Steve Ott signing for the league minimum.

Watching this season, I agree with Abdelkader and Helm. I was okay with Abby at the time, but hated that Helm signing. Depth wise, I have him on my fourth line. Frans Nielsen, he's a healthy mule which is on our side during this contract. He's been fantastic despite the **** team.

Jakub Chychrun dropped a bit for some reasons obviously mentioned before. He does have a man's body though, which will make his leap quicker. Give that trade some time, obviously. We drafted a raw prospect, and a fantastic Czech D.

I didn't say I predicted anything. I was speaking in hypotheticals, as in what could be considered predictable and what isn't.

I knew he missed half a season in 2010, and the reduced game # in 12-13 due to lockout was an oversight on my part.

You're right, it does seem like bad luck more than foreseeable injury. So sure if the bar is so low we want to call stuff like good trades, you guys can go for it.

 

[Eastopia]

In your opinion.

Actually liked the thought process behind the Zidlicky trade, FWIW. Did not like the Cole trade and hated the Legwand trade.

Whose opinion did you expect me to express?

What we gave up for Cole was a disgruntled prospect with a medical condition while dropping a few positions in the draft. Oh, and some now 24 year old defender who's yet to play a single game in the NHL. If Cole had managed to stay healthy he could've been the difference in the playoffs series for us and that's worth it to me.

At least we agree on the Legwand trade, though. If ever there was a "lets throw assets away so we can have another 1st round exit" trade, that was it. I'll always remember Legwand for being the guy who gave Nyquist the puck for his great goal against Tampa but it was pretty clear that he was already spent when he came to us. That was a waste.