Wings Standings Tracker: Officially Bottom 5

[Reddwit]

It seems backwards for me to complain about how we have bad contracts that prevent us from taking on other bad contracts. If these contracts handcuff us, then so will other bad contracts. Sure they might come packaged with a depth pick or prospect, but we don't need that. We need impact players. We're not getting a top 10 pick or bluechipper for taking on an albatross contract. Abby/Helm/DD/etc might not have the most amazing contracts but at least they can play hockey. They can be good support to cheap, young talent growing into leading roles. Wanting them gone in order to replace them with straight up cap dumps? Ridiculous. Let's just take our top 10 pick and see what next year brings. Don't turn this team into a cap dump graveyard just because we missed the playoffs once in 26 years.

So many logical reasoning issues here, but this is a big one. Sorry, but a contract that handcuffs us does not mean a camp dump will also handcuff us. We don't even have to pose hypotheticals to realize that, either.

Cap dump that is not a handcuffing contract: Datsyuk's (one year), Bickell (one year), Savard (LTIR).

I'd rather trade away some guys like Smith/Vanek/Jurco/Sheahan/etc to land a few extra picks with no strings attached, rather than take cap dumps that handcuff the team in exchange for a pick or a prospect that isn't better than what we already have.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? Why? Why can't we trade Smith and Vanek and Sheahan and Jurco and also acquire a cap dump to acquire additional picks? Hell! Why can't we use the cap space built up from shipping off Vanek and Sheahan and Smith and Jurco to acquire the cap dump itself!

I'd rather trade away some guys like
It's mindboggling to me that taking on cap dumps is something people envy. To me it's the nightmare scenario, the absolute worst case option for what can happen to a franchise.

What? That's your nightmare scenario? Not spending the most of any NHL team and not having the playoffs to show for it?

Taking cap dumps is a nightmare because it's what you do when you have no real assets apart from cap space.

I'm sorry, what? Carolina has no assets? Phoenix has no assets? New Jersey none? Chychrun, OEL, Domi, Duclair, Stone, Faulk, Aho, Skinner, Rask, Hanifin, Hall, Palmieri, Severson, and Henrique aren't assets??? You live in a strange black-and-white world where everything is seemingly exclusive of everything else. You can't possibly have assets if you also have cap space, can you??!?!?

You know they gave up a few draft picks right?

Oh, so now that a team gave up draft picks you're suddenly ready to highlight their value? Hilarious.

They basically gave up a 2nd and a 3rd and took on a cap dump, for a player on the level of Nyquist or arguably worse (younger though). It might have been a good move for them, but for us? We don't need to do that since we're good at finding guys on the level of TT. Carolina, with their abysmal forward drafting, need moves like that.

So, with that basis in mind, you would be happy if Holland got a 2nd, a 3rd, and a cap dump in exchange for Nyquist. Because what you're implying is that Carolina gave up a pretty penny in order to acquire Nyquist.

 

[njx9]

You know they gave up a few draft picks right?

They basically gave up a 2nd and a 3rd and took on a cap dump, for a player on the level of Nyquist or arguably worse (younger though). It might have been a good move for them, but for us? We don't need to do that since we're good at finding guys on the level of TT. Carolina, with their abysmal forward drafting, need moves like that.

Yup. But I don't get it, we should be trying to trade Nyquist for a top tier D, but he's not that good? Or he's a key part of our future, in spite of not being that good? I don't understand the point of your comparison, other than to suggest that Teravainen isn't all that good because... reasons. Further, we're clearly *not* that good at finding those players lately. If we could find guys with 2C potential with any regularity, Nielsen would've been an even stupider signing (at lifetime-contract levels of term). We clearly can't, given that we're still trotting out Sheahan every night.

I dunno, whatever. If you think the team is better off long term by desperately hanging onto guys like Helm, Nielsen and Abbie, rather than acquiring assets by taking a year of a bad contract, there isn't really a discussion to be had.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Cap flexibility is team flexibility. There are more trades that can be made if you can take bad contracts back which we can't do.

It isn't meaningless. Not only does it actively hurt the team but also it's indicative of the terrible managing by Ken Holland. How does a cap team do this ******? Because the GM handed out a bunch of bad contracts to mediocre players.

There are plenty of examples of the Wings not getting in on trade talk for guys like Nick Leddy, Johnny Boychuk, Dougie Hamilton, etc. They also had to bypass an NHL d-man in this past draft to get rid of Datsyuk's contract. So the cost of having a capped out roster have had pretty clear consequences.

It will be more difficult to sign Kevin Shattenkirk if he hits free agency given our awful cap situation. There's no reason for Ken Holland to have made so many awful decision with regard to the salary cap.

At least now that it's obvious to all but a few that we are not a good hockey club, it is worthwhile to see how the Wings approach the trade deadline. It sounds like both Ken Holland and Ken Daniels are starting to acknowledge reality and are at least open to considering being a seller at the TDL.

Holland is the most notorious tire kicker in the NHL - fewest trades in the league by a very large margin - so I'll believe he's committed to shedding contracts and getting picks or prospects in return when it actually happens. Here's hoping!

 

[Claypool]

There are plenty of examples of the Wings not getting in on trade talk for guys like Nick Leddy, Johnny Boychuk, Dougie Hamilton, etc. They also had to bypass an NHL d-man in this past draft to get rid of Datsyuk's contract. So the cost of having a capped out roster have had pretty clear consequences.

It will be more difficult to sign Kevin Shattenkirk if he hits free agency given our awful cap situation. There's no reason for Ken Holland to have made so many awful decision with regard to the salary cap.

At least now that it's obvious to all but a few that we are not a good hockey club, it is worthwhile to see how the Wings approach the trade deadline. It sounds like both Ken Holland and Ken Daniels are starting to acknowledge reality and are at least open to considering being a seller at the TDL.

Holland is the most notorious tire kicker in the NHL - fewest trades in the league by a very large margin - so I'll believe he's committed to shedding contracts and getting picks or prospects in return when it actually happens. Here's hoping!

If Holland traded for Boychuk and signed him to that awful contract you'd still complain about Holland. They also didn't have to trade Datsyuk. They wanted to clear space to take a run at Stamkos. Didn't work out. Still got Hronek.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So many logical reasoning issues here, but this is a big one. Sorry, but a contract that handcuffs us does not mean a camp dump will also handcuff us. We don't even have to pose hypotheticals to realize that, either.

Cap dump that is not a handcuffing contract: Datsyuk's (one year), Bickell (one year), Savard (LTIR).

Again, teams didn't just gain free draft picks for those dumps, both Arizona and Carolina actually gave up draft picks in those trades. And for sure taking on those kind of dumps is potentially handcuffing a team's ability to compete for at least that season.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? Why? Why can't we trade Smith and Vanek and Sheahan and Jurco and also acquire a cap dump to acquire additional picks? Hell! Why can't we use the cap space built up from shipping off Vanek and Sheahan and Smith and Jurco to acquire the cap dump itself!

We can. That might be an option at the deadline. I just don't see the huge value attached to taking on cap dumps. Mid-season, I don't know how many teams are desperate to move salary to the point that they're packaging good assets with it.

What? That's your nightmare scenario? Not spending the most of any NHL team and not having the playoffs to show for it?

No, because I understand why we're spending the most. And with most teams in the league within a few million of the cap ceiling I understand that it's just a meaningless talking point to go on about how we're spending the most. We can easily move players in order to get the payroll down, it just served zero purpose for us to go into this season with a bunch of dead cap space.

I'm sorry, what? Carolina has no assets? Phoenix has no assets? New Jersey none? Chychrun, OEL, Domi, Duclair, Stone, Faulk, Aho, Skinner, Rask, Hanifin, Hall, Palmieri, Severson, and Henrique aren't assets??? You live in a strange black-and-white world where everything is seemingly exclusive of everything else. You can't possibly have assets if you also have cap space, can you??!?!?

Probably should have said "expendable assets". If we want draft picks, we have expendable assets we can use to get them.

S
Oh, so now that a team gave up draft picks you're suddenly ready to highlight their value? Hilarious.

I think you've gotten lost somewhere, I've always argued that draft picks are valuable. I just don't think taking on cap dumps is the ideal way to acquire them. Selling assets is better, trading down is also a good way. Example: we don't sign Vanek, instead we take on a cap dump + 2nd pick in exchange for Frk+4th (hypotethical trade). Maybe this board likes that move. But we could potentially sell Vanek at the deadline for a 1st. Maybe even a 1st+. That remains to be seen but I'd rather see us spending money in FA and being sellers at the deadline rather than go in with tons of cap space and trying to swing cap dump trades, I think there's less value in those deals.

So, with that basis in mind, you would be happy if Holland got a 2nd, a 3rd, and a cap dump in exchange for Nyquist. Because what you're implying is that Carolina gave up a pretty penny in order to acquire Nyquist.

Uhh... no. I think that would be terrible value for Nyquist. Why would we want a cap dump in exchange for Nyquist? That makes no sense.

Yup. But I don't get it, we should be trying to trade Nyquist for a top tier D, but he's not that good? Or he's a key part of our future, in spite of not being that good? I don't understand the point of your comparison, other than to suggest that Teravainen isn't all that good because... reasons. d.

I didn't say "he's not that good". I said he's not better than what we already have. Carolina doesn't have much in the way of forwards, they've been bad at drafting. For them it made sense to trade a few picks and take a cap dump in order to get a TT. That's not really necessary for us since we can draft those guys.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If Holland traded for Boychuk and signed him to that awful contract you'd still complain about Holland. They also didn't have to trade Datsyuk. They wanted to clear space to take a run at Stamkos. Didn't work out. Still got Hronek.

As usual, you cherry pick to try to make a compelling case. Leddy is a 50ish point d-man. Hamilton is a 50 point d-man. So out of those three you had a 33% chance of getting a guy would wouldn't have been a major contributor. Surprise, surprise, it's the guy who's been in the league for 9 years and has amassed over 500 games.

We all hope Hronek will be an NHL'er. The Wings organization was very high on Sproul and Ouellet and neither of those guys are much more than bottom 3 d-men at best. With Chychrun you have a guy who is an NHL'er right now and is on pace to put up more points than golden children Ouellet and Sproul.

So again, the point is the Wings have missed out on opportunities to improve their roster both now and in the future by having an awful cap situation. You can cherry pick stats to make it look like every decision with regard to the cap has been good but that doesn't change the fact Ken Holland has made a number of awful deals that have done nothing but limit the ability of the franchise to improve. And that's why we're in the position we're in right now as one of the worst teams in the league and are headed towards a prolonged rebuild.

 

[Heaton]

If Holland traded for Boychuk and signed him to that awful contract you'd still complain about Holland. They also didn't have to trade Datsyuk. They wanted to clear space to take a run at Stamkos. Didn't work out. Still got Hronek.

This is false, Holland knew he didn't have a chance to get Stamkos once Stamkos refused to meet with the Wings.

Holland's #1 target was Nielsen because he knew Stamkos wasn't coming to the Wings. Honestly, Stamkos would have never chosen Detroit, the Wings weren't going to outbid anyone and Detroit isn't a draw for a guy like Stamkos who wants to win a cup.

 

[Run the Jewels]

This is false, Holland knew he didn't have a chance to get Stamkos once Stamkos refused to meet with the Wings.

Forgot to cover this part.

 

[Bench]

Stamkos is crazy bread for not wanting to play in the new arena when it's hot and ready.

 

[Heaton]

Stamkos is crazy bread for not wanting to play in the new arena when it's hot and ready.

5/7 meme.

 

[Winger98]

No, because I understand why we're spending the most. And with most teams in the league within a few million of the cap ceiling I understand that it's just a meaningless talking point to go on about how we're spending the most. We can easily move players in order to get the payroll down, it just served zero purpose for us to go into this season with a bunch of dead cap space.

I disagree with the idea that we can easily move guys to get the payroll down, but I think you're right that by the time this past summer rolled around that we had already capped ourselves to the point where adding another contract or two made more sense than standing pat. We were essentially capped out at that point and just needed to take advantage of Franzen's LTIR.

But I think that just means we needed to take better care of our cap space before now, and been more aggressive paring away pieces that were good but not difference makers and getting back what we could in trades. Claypool keeps bringing up Carolina and Arizona, but I think those are extremes that don't represent what the Wings could/should have been doing.

Also, given the stupid cap situations a lot of teams put themselves in now, I think that's a better argument for managing our cap a bit better to take advantage of that. The Bickell/Teravainen deal is one example, but we could also be looking to take on decent players like Leddy and Boychuck. If we had prepared better, with a bit more foresight, I think we could have the same quality of team without the payroll issues.

 

[njx9]

I didn't say "he's not that good". I said he's not better than what we already have. Carolina doesn't have much in the way of forwards, they've been bad at drafting. For them it made sense to trade a few picks and take a cap dump in order to get a TT. That's not really necessary for us since we can draft those guys.

We really can't draft those guys though. We're not good at drafting Cs. We've drafted a couple of maybe-decent-to-good wingers (if we focus on non-first round picks).

It's hardly relevant, though: we can't get a player like that in exchange for a one year cap dump and some low picks because we really needed to make sure mediocre players like Abbie, Helm and Nielsen retire as Wings.

 

[Fear]

This is false, Holland knew he didn't have a chance to get Stamkos once Stamkos refused to meet with the Wings.

Holland's #1 target was Nielsen because he knew Stamkos wasn't coming to the Wings. Honestly, Stamkos would have never chosen Detroit, the Wings weren't going to outbid anyone and Detroit isn't a draw for a guy like Stamkos who wants to win a cup.

How do you know this? The draft/trade was on the 24th of June (Friday), and the free agent speaking window started June 25th (Saturday). He wasn't allowed to talk to Stamkos' agent until after he traded the contract.

 

[Claypool]

Leddy is a 50ish point d-man. Hamilton is a 50 point d-man.

Neither player has ever hit 50 points.

 

[jkutswings]

Neither player has ever hit 50 points.

Technically true, but both have hit 40, and Hamilton is on pace for 51 this year. Let's not split hairs and miss the point behind the statement.

 

[Claypool]

Technically true, but both have hit 40, and Hamilton is on pace for 51 this year. Let's not split hairs and miss the point behind the statement.

Ok, I still fail to see how having either one of those players instead of Mike Green makes this team any better than it currently is.

 

[jkutswings]

Ok, I still fail to see how having either one of those players instead of Mike Green makes this team any better than it currently is.

That wasn't the claim. It was that, if Holland wasn't so risk averse, and actually did things like roster player trades once in awhile, they might have gotten Leddy/Hamilton AND Green. And THAT would definitely be a better roster than their current one.

 

[Claypool]

That wasn't the claim. It was that, if Holland wasn't so risk averse, and actually did things like roster player trades once in awhile, they might have gotten Leddy/Hamilton AND Green. And THAT would definitely be a better roster than their current one.

People hate Holland when he makes trades, too.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

People hate Holland when he makes trades, too.

I think people were happy when he traded Kindl. I sure was.

Then there's the Zidlicky, Cole, and Legwand trades which were all about continuing the streak and did little to improve the team if not hamper it. Was 26 games from Legwand really worth Eaves and Jarnkrok?

He acquired Quincey for a 1st rounder, which doesn't look great when you put him on waivers and lost him a few years prior.

Really the last significant trade Holland made that I can think of was Brad Stuart from LA, which was a very good one.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Technically true, but both have hit 40, and Hamilton is on pace for 51 this year. Let's not split hairs and miss the point behind the statement.

As you point out Hamilton is 23 years old and is on pace to put up 51 points. Leddy is 25 and is on pace to put up 47 points. There's no reason not to reasonably expect both to be capable of putting up 50 points in a single season. We don't have a single d-man on our roster who will outproduce either guy this year and all of our "young" guys who are pretty much the same age as Leddy and Hamilton are going to be lucky to put up 20 points.

 

[Claypool]

As you point out Hamilton is 23 years old and is on pace to put up 51 points. Leddy is 25 and is on pace to put up 47 points. There's no reason not to reasonably expect both to be capable of putting up 50 points in a single season. We don't have a single d-man on our roster who will outproduce either guy this year and all of our "young" guys who are pretty much the same age as Leddy and Hamilton are going to be lucky to put up 20 points.

Hamilton and Leddy aren't putting up 50+ points on this Red Wings roster.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We really can't draft those guys though. We're not good at drafting Cs. We've drafted a couple of maybe-decent-to-good wingers (if we focus on non-first round picks).

It's hardly relevant, though: we can't get a player like that in exchange for a one year cap dump and some low picks because we really needed to make sure mediocre players like Abbie, Helm and Nielsen retire as Wings.

You're probably overrating TT. Career high of 35 points. I'll take our "maybe-decent-to-good" wingers that can score 50-60 points over TT. Nothing special about him just because he's a C. He takes the 6th most faceoffs on Carolina and is 44.6% on them. I'd easily take Abby/Helm/Nielsen over him.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Hamilton and Leddy aren't putting up 50+ points on this Red Wings roster.

So let me get this straight: you think it's perfectly fine that we've been capped out and as a result couldn't make a trade offer for Leddy or Hamilton because ultimately they wouldn't be any better than Jensen, Marchenko, Spoul or Oullet? You don't think they would improve our defense at all?

See, when you say we shouldn't rebuild, the way I look at is you need to pursue any opportunity you have to improve your roster. And this is a clear case where you should have seen the lost opportunity to improve your team. Instead you were complacent and fine with not even making any attempt to acquire either guy.

It simply makes no sense to me.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So let me get this straight: you think it's perfectly fine that we've been capped out and as a result couldn't make a trade offer for Leddy or Hamilton because ultimately they wouldn't be any better than Jensen, Marchenko, Spoul or Oullet? You don't think they would improve our defense at all?

See, when you say we shouldn't rebuild, the way I look at is you need to pursue any opportunity you have to improve your roster. And this is a clear case where you should have seen the lost opportunity to improve your team. Instead you were complacent and fine with not even making any attempt to acquire either guy.

It simply makes no sense to me.

Hamilton was offered to Calgary. They called first and Sweeney hopped on that trade. Nothing the Wings could have done to be in on that trade. The Bruins didn't shop him around. Maybe get on Holland for not kicking tires hard enough.

Nick Leddy? Was it a missed opportunity? Sure. They could have talked more about him, but they've always needed that top pairing, minute crunching guy. Get that guy and Kronner or someone is your Leddy.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Hamilton was offered to Calgary. They called first and Sweeney hopped on that trade. Nothing the Wings could have done to be in on that trade. The Bruins didn't shop him around. Maybe get on Holland for not kicking tires hard enough.

Nick Leddy? Was it a missed opportunity? Sure. They could have talked more about him, but they've always needed that top pairing, minute crunching guy. Get that guy and Kronner or someone is your Leddy.

It's been blatantly obvious to everyone who follows the Red Wings that the defense is the biggest issue. So I don't understand why people make every excuse in the book for Ken Holland doing absolutely nothing to improve the defense. There have been dozens of d-men traded, from top pairing guys like Bouwmeester and Burns to puck moving offensive d-men like Leddy, Hamilton, Yandle, hell we had a chance to get Justin Schultz as a free agent out of college and people were like "nope, not interested". He sucked in Edmonton while they were rebuilding but he's been great in Pittsburgh.

I simply don't understand the people who were totally cool with whiffing on every available d-man of need but don't understand the need to rebuild when your roster is bereft of talent. How do you say you don't want to rebuild yet have no problem with missing out on every single d-man who has been available to improve the roster so - you know - you aren't put in a position where you are forced to go through a long, drawn out rebuild?