Wings Standings Tracker: Officially Bottom 5

[Claypool]

That's not true, they easily could be apart of the rebuild. But the main problem is that I don't see our rebuild even starting until Holland's gone.

And obviously, a rebuild could easily go the way of Edmonton's pre-McDavid, or Colorado's, or whomever's. But the alternative hasn't been working for us. We NEED a center piece to build a team around, and we simply don't have that.

Yep, Holland isn't changing anything with this team until he retires. He's made that pretty clear what he's trying to do the last three years when asked about it.

This team isn't going to tank. They might suck badly enough one season and finish last, which could help I suppose, but they certainly aren't going to try and make that a pattern.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yep, Holland isn't changing anything with this team until he retires. He's made that pretty clear what he's trying to do the last three years when asked about it.

This team isn't going to tank. They might suck badly enough one season and finish last, which could help I suppose, but they certainly aren't going to try and make that a pattern.

But even then, say we get lucky and draft Nolan Patrick, who ends up being a 60 point 2 way power forward center to pair with Larkin down the middle. We have so much cap tied up in depth players over the next five years, that it severely limits what we can do with our team.

 

[Claypool]

But even then, say we get lucky and draft Nolan Patrick, who ends up being a 60 point 2 way power forward center to pair with Larkin down the middle. We have so much cap tied up in depth players over the next five years, that it severely limits what we can do with our team.

They won't have salary cap issues five years from now when this team might be a contender. There's nothing to worry about.

 

[Flowah]

Are you ok with trading Larkin, Mantha, AA, etc. for draft picks?

I don't know why you guys think the only option is to sell the under 25s. rofl. I can't have said this fewer than 10 times and you guys still create these strawmen.

Sell the older players who won't be around in 5 years. Vanek, Nielsen, Green. They aren't part of the team after a rebuild. No need to hang on to them. They also happen to be some of our best players and would get better returns. What happens to this team that's already in the bottom 3rd of the league and out of the playoffs? Oh we get even worse. Maybe bottom 3 teams. Give ourselves a shot at a top3 pick. Do that for 3-4 years. Sell anyone who isn't part of the future and gets a good enough return. Pull the trigger on as many hail mary's as you can on defense and centers with your later round picks that you're getting because you're selling those non-core players.

Why trade a 20 year old with top6 C potential who will just be hitting his prime after the rebuild? You'd just have to pick up another one of him anyway. Why trade a 6'5 22 year old who's scoring at a 60 point pace in his first season? Has anyone advocated that? Why can't you just be honest about other people's positions?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Really, I think we need to take the rebuild in steps.

The first step should be rebuilding the front office. Get Paul Fenton. Shoot Ken Holland, Ryan Martin, and Kris Draper into space.

 

[HIFE]

Wings 16th in the eastern conference. Great job making the PO's Kenny!

I've got a good feeling about Ottawa. Only watched the last two Saturday games vs. Leafs recently but they've got something there...playing with swagger. Strong team on paper that's actually living up to expectations for the time being.

 

[Bench]

The first step should be rebuilding the front office. Get Paul Fenton. Shoot Ken Holland, Ryan Martin, and Kris Draper into space.

It will be like our version of Spacey in Space!

 

[Frk It]

It will be like our version of Spacey in Space!

Frank Underwood for GM.

 

[jkutswings]

They won't have salary cap issues five years from now when this team might be a contender. There's nothing to worry about.

He didn't say, starting in 2022. He said from now until then.

Meaning, that during these next 5 years, not only do you see your good young core developing, but you need to be shaping your supplemental talent, and positioning yourself to add 1-2 final pieces as the bulk of your roster rounds out.

Detroit, even if it lands 1OA, is stuck with a lot of cap mess. So they'd have to hope that their high draft picks develop in the midst of these schmucks for several years, then hope that all their sudden cap space in 2022 turns into good moves all at once to round out the roster, and that everybody recently added gels together very quickly.

That's a tougher thing to accomplish than having the flexibility to make 1-2 changes per year, not to mention the types of changes you could have available with more cap flexibility to work with.

 

[jkutswings]

Heading into the All-Star Break, Detroit has 49 points in 49 games, and holds the 4th worst record in the league (by points; 5th worst by PPG).

 

[Claypool]

He didn't say, starting in 2022. He said from now until then.

Meaning, that during these next 5 years, not only do you see your good young core developing, but you need to be shaping your supplemental talent, and positioning yourself to add 1-2 final pieces as the bulk of your roster rounds out.

Detroit, even if it lands 1OA, is stuck with a lot of cap mess. So they'd have to hope that their high draft picks develop in the midst of these schmucks for several years, then hope that all their sudden cap space in 2022 turns into good moves all at once to round out the roster, and that everybody recently added gels together very quickly.

That's a tougher thing to accomplish than having the flexibility to make 1-2 changes per year, not to mention the types of changes you could have available with more cap flexibility to work with.

Until this team drafts 18 year old superstars that are among the best players in the league day one there's nothing to worry about cap space wise. I think we can all agree that isn't happening for the next few seasons at least. There doesn't appear to be any generational players coming down the line anytime soon, either.

If this team decides to pull the plug and rebuild from scratch then players like Larkin, Mantha, and AA shoud be secondary pieces. They won't be around when/if this team begins contending, and they certainly won't be cost effective like they are now. The elite superstar players this team needs to draft will be significantly better than anyone currently in the system and on the roster. There's no reason to keep anyone around if they go that route.

The only thing you need to worry about is management locking up the next core of young players to long term contracts and having them stink, like Colorado and Edmonton pre-McDavid. That's when you have to rebuild yet again.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't know how people can simultaneously say that all we have on the team is 2nd/3rd liners and 3rd pairing d-men, but also be worried about our lack of cap space or cap flexibility.
We're not going to acquire superstars via FA or trade. Best we could hope for is really to acquire more guys like Nielsen/Abby/Helm/Green/Dekeyser, which we already have so we don't need the cap space to acquire them.
Our young players are not earning big raises in this environment. Sheahan won't get big money. AA, Larkin and Mantha will get reasonable RFA bridge contracts. Mrazek may not even be someone we want to keep long term if he keeps this up. Franzen's contract will be moved, probably Zetterberg's too once they get closer to their end date. Dekeyser is the only big contract we have long-term on D, but he'll be around for what we will be a youth movement on D as we see Hicketts/Russo/Hronek/Cholowski/Saarijarvi/etc step in, cheap players for the forseeable future.

I don't see the huge cap mess except as a largely imaginary construct for people to have yet another thing to complain about. It would have been a bigger mess if the team was at the top of the standings and our young players were all on track to earn big contracts.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I don't know how people can simultaneously say that all we have on the team is 2nd/3rd liners and 3rd pairing d-men, but also be worried about our lack of cap space or cap flexibility.
We're not going to acquire superstars via FA or trade. Best we could hope for is really to acquire more guys like Nielsen/Abby/Helm/Green/Dekeyser, which we already have so we don't need the cap space to acquire them.
Our young players are not earning big raises in this environment. Sheahan won't get big money. AA, Larkin and Mantha will get reasonable RFA bridge contracts. Mrazek may not even be someone we want to keep long term if he keeps this up. Franzen's contract will be moved, probably Zetterberg's too once they get closer to their end date. Dekeyser is the only big contract we have long-term on D, but he'll be around for what we will be a youth movement on D as we see Hicketts/Russo/Hronek/Cholowski/Saarijarvi/etc step in, cheap players for the forseeable future.

I don't see the huge cap mess except as a largely imaginary construct for people to have yet another thing to complain about. It would have been a bigger mess if the team was at the top of the standings and our young players were all on track to earn big contracts.

You may be the first person in the history of sports think a non playoff team with no high end talent but with the league's highest payroll is a good thing, or at least a non issue.

Wow.....

 

[Pavels Dog]

You may be the first person in the history of sports think a non playoff team with no high end talent but with the league's highest payroll is a good thing, or at least a non issue.

Wow.....

That's a reading comprehension failure, I don't know what else to tell you.

"highest payroll" is absolutely meaningless btw. It's a talking point for the Holland-bashers, nothing more.

 

[Flowah]

That's a reading comprehension failure, I don't know what else to tell you.

"highest payroll" is absolutely meaningless btw. It's a talking point for the Holland-bashers, nothing more.

Cap flexibility is team flexibility. There are more trades that can be made if you can take bad contracts back which we can't do.

It isn't meaningless. Not only does it actively hurt the team but also it's indicative of the terrible managing by Ken Holland. How does a cap team do this ******? Because the GM handed out a bunch of bad contracts to mediocre players.

 

[Claypool]

Cap flexibility is team flexibility. There are more trades that can be made if you can take bad contracts back which we can't do.

Ownership isn't turning this team into Arizona or Carolina. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Cap flexibility is team flexibility. There are more trades that can be made if you can take bad contracts back which we can't do.

It isn't meaningless. Not only does it actively hurt the team but also it's indicative of the terrible managing by Ken Holland. How does a cap team do this ******? Because the GM handed out a bunch of bad contracts to mediocre players.

It seems backwards for me to complain about how we have bad contracts that prevent us from taking on other bad contracts. If these contracts handcuff us, then so will other bad contracts. Sure they might come packaged with a depth pick or prospect, but we don't need that. We need impact players. We're not getting a top 10 pick or bluechipper for taking on an albatross contract. Abby/Helm/DD/etc might not have the most amazing contracts but at least they can play hockey. They can be good support to cheap, young talent growing into leading roles. Wanting them gone in order to replace them with straight up cap dumps? Ridiculous. Let's just take our top 10 pick and see what next year brings. Don't turn this team into a cap dump graveyard just because we missed the playoffs once in 26 years.

 

[Flowah]

Ownership isn't turning this team into Arizona or Carolina. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You're not bursting any bubbles. Just proving your own ignorance and inability to discern simple positions.

I know management and ownership isn't going to do that. None of us here are affecting policy. And despite your apparent confusion on this, we aren't talking here about what we think management/ownership is going to do, but what we think they should do.

Or maybe you do get that but you people are all pivoting to "stop proposing things the Wings aren't going to do" because you realize that your position of not tanking to rebuild the team has zero merit whatsoever.

It seems backwards for me to complain about how we have bad contracts that prevent us from taking on other bad contracts. If these contracts handcuff us, then so will other bad contracts. Sure they might come packaged with a depth pick or prospect, but we don't need that. We need impact players. We're not getting a top 10 pick or bluechipper for taking on an albatross contract.

But of course it isn't backwards. Bad contracts you sign for yourself come with nothing. Bad contracts you take from other teams come with things.

No you won't get an impact player from that. Yes, you will get more picks. Yes you might get lucky. I hope everyone can agree that finding a superstar in the later rounds is largely luck. I hope we can also all agree that more picks in those later rounds increases your odds at getting lucky. I hope we can all agree that if you're going to have bad contracts it's better to take on a bad contract that comes with those additional picks to give yourself a better chance.

But I'm slowly learning that even these clearly true things can be disputed somehow.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But of course it isn't backwards. Bad contracts you sign for yourself come with nothing. Bad contracts you take from other teams come with things.

No you won't get an impact player from that. Yes, you will get more picks. Yes you might get lucky. I hope everyone can agree that finding a superstar in the later rounds is largely luck. I hope we can also all agree that more picks in those later rounds increases your odds at getting lucky. I hope we can all agree that if you're going to have bad contracts it's better to take on a bad contract that comes with those additional picks to give yourself a better chance.

But I'm slowly learning that even these clearly true things can be disputed somehow.

I'd rather trade away some guys like Smith/Vanek/Jurco/Sheahan/etc to land a few extra picks with no strings attached, rather than take cap dumps that handcuff the team in exchange for a pick or a prospect that isn't better than what we already have.

It's mindboggling to me that taking on cap dumps is something people envy. To me it's the nightmare scenario, the absolute worst case option for what can happen to a franchise.

 

[Flowah]

I'd rather trade away some guys like Smith/Vanek/Jurco/Sheahan/etc to land a few extra picks with no strings attached, rather than take cap dumps that handcuff the team in exchange for a pick or a prospect that isn't better than what we already have.

It's mindboggling to me that taking on cap dumps is something people envy. To me it's the nightmare scenario, the absolute worst case option for what can happen to a franchise.

Why is it a nightmare scenario?

If taking on a cap dump is a nightmare scenario, you must be ******** your pants over having the same worthless cap hits while getting nothing in return. Except you're not.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

That's a reading comprehension failure, I don't know what else to tell you.

"highest payroll" is absolutely meaningless btw. It's a talking point for the Holland-bashers, nothing more.

Sorry are you saying cap soace/flexibility are meaningless?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why is it a nightmare scenario?

If taking on a cap dump is a nightmare scenario, you must be ******** your pants over having the same worthless cap hits while getting nothing in return. Except you're not.

What worthless cap hits do we have that we're getting nothing in return from?

Taking cap dumps is a nightmare because it's what you do when you have no real assets apart from cap space. As I said, if you want extra picks there are ways to get them that don't involve tying yourself up in bad contracts with potentially deap cap hits.

 

[njx9]

It's mindboggling to me that taking on cap dumps is something people envy. To me it's the nightmare scenario, the absolute worst case option for what can happen to a franchise.

I'd rather get a Teravainen back for taking on a year of Bickell, than get nothing back for taking on 4 years of Helm, or 6-7 years of Nielsen or Abbie. But to each their own.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'd rather get a Teravainen back for taking on a year of Bickell, than get nothing back for taking on 4 years of Helm, or 6-7 years of Nielsen or Abbie. But to each their own.

You know they gave up a few draft picks right?

They basically gave up a 2nd and a 3rd and took on a cap dump, for a player on the level of Nyquist or arguably worse (younger though). It might have been a good move for them, but for us? We don't need to do that since we're good at finding guys on the level of TT. Carolina, with their abysmal forward drafting, need moves like that.

 

[jkutswings]

What worthless cap hits do we have that we're getting nothing in return from?

Each in their own way, Weiss, Franzen, and Vitale are absolutely in this category.

That doesn't count guys like Kronwall, who are playing in name only, or guys like Sheahan, who have gone beyond having a bad year, and are dragging down whatever linemates get saddled with him.

The Wings have millions and millions of poorly spent money, often with NTC/NM clauses, which restricts their options. The degree of restriction is debatable, but the fact that it's there is certain.