Speculation: Wings spare parts at the deadline (Actually, the tank thread)

[Snuggs]

I'm just gonna throw my hands up and be like Buttkrak and say told you I told you so when Bertuzzi goes and signs with some team for 5x5.

 

[Henkka]

He's not signing here though.

You don't know a thing is he gonna sign or not.

Not counting his rookie cup of coffee, here's how many games Bert has played each year:

Total: 293/428 (68.46%, or an average of 56 games out of 82)

I like his skill set. But I'm not sticking with a guy who misses nearly a third of the season. If there's a decent deal, I'm trading him.

That's why Yzerman is gonna re-sign him cheap, and other teams are not signing him.

 

[Pavels Dog]

K guys... we need to realistically look at the chances of making the playoffs, let alone making hypotheticals about winning a series, yadda yadda.

The odds say, Red Wings aren't going to make the playoffs and that Bertuzzi won't be resigned by UFA season.

If Snuggs was coaching the 1980 USA hockey team instead of Herb Brooks, it wouldn't be known as "Miracle on ice" but rather as the "Realistically we were always going to lose so why even try, on ice".

 

[Snuggs]

If Snuggs was coaching the 1980 USA hockey team instead of Herb Brooks, it wouldn't be known as "Miracle on ice" but rather as the "Realistically we were always going to lose so why even try, on ice".

Yeah cause either is comparable.

Lol, using hyperbolic analogies that don't correlate doesn't really strengthen your point.

The Olympic games/tournament has nothing to do with building/maintaining an NHL organization. A good example would of been St. Louis. But even then... Mircale for a reason, right? We don't exactly have someone in the AHL that's gonna come up and anchor the team down and Yzerman doesn't seem willing to bring an O'reilly type player/trade in now.

Guess I'm also the guy that'll never win the lottery but saved all that money my whole lifetime compared to everyone else who spent 5$ a week for next to nothing.

We'll see in time if it's a mistake or not to move or not move Bertuzzi. We each have our own opinion.

 

[Snuggs]

You don't know a thing is he gonna sign or not.



That's why Yzerman is gonna re-sign him cheap, and other teams are not signing him.

Listen here you... I know!

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah cause either is comparable.

Lol, using hyperbolic analogies that don't correlate doesn't really strengthen your point.

The Olympic games/tournament has nothing to do with building/maintaining an NHL organization. A good example would of been St. Louis. But even then... Mircale for a reason, right? We don't exactly have someone in the AHL that's gonna come up and anchor the team down and Yzerman doesn't seem willing to bring an O'reilly type player/trade in now.

Guess I'm also the guy that'll never win the lottery but saved all that money my whole lifetime compared to everyone else who spent 5$ a week for next to nothing.

We'll see in time if it's a mistake or not to move or not move Bertuzzi. We each have our own opinion.

The main point is really that eventually you have to try. I get that it's a lot easier to miss the playoffs by a decent margin and say "eh, we weren't even trying!" than to miss by 1-2 points or be an easy 1st round exit.
If the team continue to play like they actually want to make a run at it, I don't see how you can undercut them by moving signficant pieces just because you hope maybe in 5 years time that 2nd round pick could, maybe, turn into a player half as useful as Bertuzzi.

 

[Frk It]

Do we really want him re-signed long term though? I agree it could just be media posturing because we are close right now though. My concern is Bert gets hurt every season, and if he can't last healthily through a regular season, how is he going to be able to make it through playoffs. I know the two hand things were flukes, but it also can just be he is injury prone as well, as he also had a lower body injury this season as well.

How do we know if he is re-signed it would be long term?

 

[jaster]

People still talking about selling? C'mon. Ya'll crazy. We're doing this. We're playing meaningful games and pushing for a playoff spot. Larkin is on fire. He's literally willing this team into competitive status. It's remarkable to see. Try rooting for the 2023 Red Wings instead of the 2028 Red Wings.

 

[Snuggs]

The main point is really that eventually you have to try. I get that it's a lot easier to miss the playoffs by a decent margin and say "eh, we weren't even trying!" than to miss by 1-2 points or be an easy 1st round exit.
If the team continue to play like they actually want to make a run at it, I don't see how you can undercut them by moving signficant pieces just because you hope maybe in 5 years time that 2nd round pick could, maybe, turn into a player half as useful as Bertuzzi.

You do it because the guy you are trading isn't going to be a part of your Stanley cup/playoff runs(hopefully) during those next 5 years, not because you love 2nd round prospects.

If there is any ground being made on a decent contract than this discussion is different, but, imo, I don't think they're too close and I also think Larkins contract is more important to Yzerman before signing/paying Bertuzzi.

People still talking about selling? C'mon. Ya'll crazy. We're doing this. We're playing meaningful games and pushing for a playoff spot. Larkin is on fire. He's literally willing this team into competitive status. It's remarkable to see. Try rooting for the 2023 Red Wings instead of the 2028 Red Wings.

See no, It's moving on from a player that isn't a part of the future plans. (Like even next year not 2030 or whatever year you want exaggerate.)

I'm not saying sell. Hell Wings could even go add while still doing prolly the right thing and move on and gain value from Bertuzzi.

If Bertuzzi has a decent extension in place then, or they're close to numbers then, yeah stuipd to trade him.

 

[Oddbob]

How do we know if he is re-signed it would be long term?

Why would Bert sign short term? He is in his late 20s, he will want more than a few years if he can get it.

 

[jaster]

See no, It's moving on from a player that isn't a part of the future plans. (Like even next year not 2030 or whatever year you want exaggerate.)

I'm not saying sell. Hell Wings could even go add while still doing prolly the right thing and move on and gain value from Bertuzzi.

If Bertuzzi has a decent extension in place then, or they're close to numbers then, yeah stuipd to trade him.

He's too valuable (when healthy) to a team pushing for the playoffs to trade him. Yzerman said it, he's off the block, and for good reason. Let's gooooooooo. If the Wings make the playoffs, I don't care about "losing him for nothing." I'd hope he gets re-signed at that point, but if not, oh well.

 

[Frk It]

Why would Bert sign short term? He is in his late 20s, he will want more than a few years if he can get it.

Why would anyone (including us) offer him a long term deal with his durability issues?

You can only take what you’re offered.

 

[Snuggs]

He's too valuable (when healthy) to a team pushing for the playoffs to trade him. Yzerman said it, he's off the block, and for good reason. Let's gooooooooo. If the Wings make the playoffs, I don't care about "losing him for nothing." I'd hope he gets re-signed at that point, but if not, oh well.

I can respect that. Teams in our position have this delima all the time.

I don't think we're making the playoffs so my idea is jaded in that sense, but I also wouldn't care if we didn't resign him and Red Wings actually made the playoffs with him on the roster.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

I don’t buy the “he’s signing here for cheap if he buys UFA” argument. There is always someone with some cash to burn willing to lock in on a player like Bert, and I don’t think it would actually be the AAV that would be the issue with him, but the term. Think this is a Zach Hyman ($38.5 for 7yr at 28yo UFA RW) issue. I have to imagine this is a 4yrs vs 7yrs debate, not a 5M vs 6M debate. If the offer is 18M for 3yr, I suspect this would have already been done. If I were Bert’s agent I would be looking at that Hyman deal as the blueprint and if that’s what the table ask is on their side, if I were the Wings I would balk hard and say “No thanks”

 

[norrisnick]

I don’t buy the “he’s signing here for cheap if he buys UFA” argument. There is always someone with some cash to burn willing to lock in on a player like Bert, and I don’t think it would actually be the AAV that would be the issue with him, but the term. Think this is a Zach Hyman ($38.5 for 7yr at 28yo UFA RW) issue. I have to imagine this is a 4yrs vs 7yrs debate, not a 5M vs 6M debate. If the offer is 18M for 3yr, I suspect this would have already been done. If I were Bert’s agent I would be looking at that Hyman deal as the blueprint and if that’s what the table ask is on their side, if I were the Wings I would balk hard and say “No thanks”

4yrs is the absolute max I'd offer Bertuzzi. And $6M is the absolute max AAV. If he thinks he can land a contract worth more than $24M with his history of game to game availability, by all means get it where you can.

 

[Snuggs]

I don’t buy the “he’s signing here for cheap if he buys UFA” argument. There is always someone with some cash to burn willing to lock in on a player like Bert, and I don’t think it would actually be the AAV that would be the issue with him, but the term. Think this is a Zach Hyman ($38.5 for 7yr at 28yo UFA RW) issue. I have to imagine this is a 4yrs vs 7yrs debate, not a 5M vs 6M debate. If the offer is 18M for 3yr, I suspect this would have already been done. If I were Bert’s agent I would be looking at that Hyman deal as the blueprint and if that’s what the table ask is on their side, if I were the Wings I would balk hard and say “No thanks”

This is my line of thinking honestly, while also not having faith we'll be in the playoff hunt by the TDL.

Time will tell. It'll be fun to watch this week and half of next.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Why would anyone (including us) offer him a long term deal with his durability issues?

You can only take what you’re offered.

It’s a fair point and maybe he won’t get a term and length he likes but I’m guessing Bert and his agent aren’t stupid and want the long term security and that will be the open ask and I don’t have the same confidence that the GMs of the league will show the same reason and logic that you do. The Hymans, Browns, Oshies, MacDonalds, Callahans, hell Abdelkaders tell me otherwise

 

[Frk It]

I don’t buy the “he’s signing here for cheap if he buys UFA” argument. There is always someone with some cash to burn willing to lock in on a player like Bert, and I don’t think it would actually be the AAV that would be the issue with him, but the term. Think this is a Zach Hyman ($38.5 for 7yr at 28yo UFA RW) issue. I have to imagine this is a 4yrs vs 7yrs debate, not a 5M vs 6M debate. If the offer is 18M for 3yr, I suspect this would have already been done. If I were Bert’s agent I would be looking at that Hyman deal as the blueprint and if that’s what the table ask is on their side, if I were the Wings I would balk hard and say “No thanks”

Why wasn’t there more of a trade market for bertuzzi if you think he’s gonna get this kind of deal in free agency?

It’s a fair point and maybe he won’t get a term and length he likes but I’m guessing Bert and his agent aren’t stupid and want the long term security and that will be the open ask and I don’t have the same confidence that the GMs of the league will show the same reason and logic that you do. The Hymans, Browns, Oshies, MacDonalds, Callahans, hell Abdelkaders tell me otherwise

I don’t know the specifics on Hyman as far as games missed prior to hitting free agency or what the perception of his durability was.

But in the case of Bertuzzi, I do have a hard time seeing teams willing to hand out long term with the amount of time he has missed in the 2 out of 3 seasons prior to free agency. Especially when part of that is tied to back issues.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Why wasn’t there more of a trade market for bertuzzi if you think he’s gonna get this kind of deal in free agency?

Because I don’t think the teams looking for a final piece push over the top are the same that are going to offer him a Jason Zucker deal. I think the Cup chasers are pressed hard against the cap and are bargain basement hunting or looking for some creative calculus to get a player of substance under a hard cap. I think the off-season and looking to get a team over the top, or the panic of losing a big time free agent and trying to fill that production using stupid MoneyBall aggregation is far more possible with more cap and time to play with

 

[Leibinger6]

As a chiropractor and victim to degenerative/disc issues, signing Bert to a long term contract would be a huge mistake. I’d be surprised in today’s world of information and even observation of former players, that Steve would make such a deal, but these injuries almost always resurface in the short-mid term; requiring periods of immobility, successive surgeries, complications, etc.

 

[Snuggs]

Also a team like San Jose ( just an example) isn't exactly in his trade market. As a UFA they might be players for his services. Pretty much insert any non-playoff team.

Thats why his trade value isn't very high. He's a pure 8-12 week rental for playoff teams only, with better players available than him.

 

[jaster]

I can respect that. Teams in our position have this delima all the time.

I don't think we're making the playoffs so my idea is jaded in that sense, but I also wouldn't care if we didn't resign him and Red Wings actually made the playoffs with him on the roster.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

I understand the odds of making the playoffs are stacked against Detroit, I guess I just relate to the players a lot. I see what they're doing right now, the effort, the drive, led by their captain, having some success, and I'm feeling their feels. I don't want to see them knee-capped, and I don't think trading Bertuzzi yields a big enough result to make it worth ending the chances that Seider and Raymond get a taste of the playoffs, that a very deserving Larkin gets back to the playoffs, and that this positive forward momentum gets curbed.

I understand where the "we need to suck longer" people are coming from, but I can't relate to it.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

As a chiropractor and victim to degenerative/disc issues, signing Bert to a long term contract would be a huge mistake. I’d be surprised in today’s world of information and even observation of former players, that Steve would make such a deal, but these injuries almost always resurface in the short-mid term; requiring periods of immobility, successive surgeries, complications, etc.

I love how hard Bert plays. I know he had some bad luck this year, but he also just plays a really rough brand of hockey. Think of how many injuries he has picked up in 300 NHL games or how many he had before back to junior. I just am not comfortable giving him a ton of term. It isn't because I am not a fan of Bert, I just have lost the protection for him in terms of I do think Stevie should cash in what he can get.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

To play the hypothetical, I’ll use the caps as example. This is a team that can’t realistically trade for Bert now, but could offer him something substantial in the off-season. Why do they care about term? They have a broken Carlson, Geriatric Ovi, the corpse of Oshie, no hips Backstrom, etc etc locked in all at 4 more years. They have a second aging core of players around Berts age with Wilson, Mantha, and Kuzy. They have a chunk of cap freeing up with Haglin, Eller, Johansson, and there entire D all coming up leaving them oodles of cap space.

What’s adding Bert at this point? Gives a guy who could come in, help them keep their playoffs alive for a few more seasons while the whole team walks this weird “be good for Ovi to chase the record but kind of know we’re never be good enough to reallllly compete” and finding guys who are okay with playing in that situation. Why does they care if Bert is making 6M in 2027? They’ll have literally 50M off the books with all their retirements at that point.

Not saying this is likely, just an example of team that wouldn’t trade for him but would sign him in the off-season

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Why wasn’t there more of a trade market for bertuzzi if you think he’s gonna get this kind of deal in free agency?


I don’t know the specifics on Hyman as far as games missed prior to hitting free agency or what the perception of his durability was.

But in the case of Bertuzzi, I do have a hard time seeing teams willing to hand out long term with the amount of time he has missed in the 2 out of 3 seasons prior to free agency. Especially when part of that is tied to back issues.

I think it just takes one team though. There is usually a surprising deal and I kind of feel like Bertuzzi could be one.