Confirmed with Link: Wings re-sign Abdelkader for 7 years 4.25m/yr full NTC in first 4 yrs, partial after

[Winger98]

Could definitely be that too. Given Holland's loyalty this is something I'll continue to be worried about til it does or does not happen though.

We don't really need a transitional group, though. The year after Datsyuk's contract ends Nyquist and Glendening will be 28, Tatar will be 26, Sheahan will be 25, Dekeyser will be 27, and we'll still have Z, Kronwall, and Ericsson as the older vets to keep the boat from capsizing. A lot of guys on our roster right now that we consider "young" aren't really that young. They lack NHL experience compared to many guys their same age, but they're not exactly teenagers (well, except for Larkin) about to rip through their early 20s.

 

[Dotter]

The contract is nothing to be excited about, but it's not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be.

He'll be what 36 when it expires? That's not a big deal. And 4.25 in 7 years will be like 2 million today.

 

[Actual Thought*]

The contract is nothing to be excited about, but it's not as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be.

He'll be what 36 when it expires? That's not a big deal. And 4.25 in 7 years will be like 2 million today.

Exactly. It may even turn out to be a good deal. Say what you will about Abby but I don't think you can question his character. Take Draper for example. His best offensive production years were in his early to mid 30s. He was 33 or 34 when he won the Selke. After spending his entire career as a grinder playing hard minutes and very long seasons due to playoff runs he had his best years offensively in his 30s. Abby may do the same. His role is far different than what it used to be. Of course he didn't put up a lot of points as a 4th line grinder. He wasn't expected to.

Whatever his production is this deal just flat out isn't a hair on fire galactic disaster like people are making it out to be.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

This really sums it up well for me. I remember being called a "cheerleader" dozens of times as I could understand exactly where Holland was coming from in his decision making process. There was a logic to it, and he had success with similar moves before, so you could sympathize when they didn't work out. Even if I didn't love what he was doing, I understood why he was doing it.

But as the meandering results continued to pile up and the questionable decisions became harder to understand, well, yeah here we are. I'm now, like many, disillusioned with Holland's recent body of work and my confidence in him to make impact moves is at an all-time low.

There's no singular event that completely makes you question his abilities as a general manager, but it's been a slow build of perplexing decisions that appears to have hit a crescendo with this latest contract.

Fortunately, drafting and development continues to remain a strength under his reign, even if the talent produced hasn't reached the elite level. It is this fact that saves him in many regards, and his ability to continue to feed his NHL team with good players from within keeps the team consistently in the playoff hunt despite the aforementioned issues.

True, but that doesn't matter if he's not making smart decisions with who he's holding onto and who he isn't. Case in point, Ouellet, Marchenko, Sproul and to a lesser extent Jensen may not all be able to make it on this team. None of them may turn out to be anything more than middle pairing defenders. But if we lose a single one of them for nothing, I'm gonna be pissed, because that's undeniably poor asset management.

We don't really need a transitional group, though. The year after Datsyuk's contract ends Nyquist and Glendening will be 28, Tatar will be 26, Sheahan will be 25, Dekeyser will be 27, and we'll still have Z, Kronwall, and Ericsson as the older vets to keep the boat from capsizing. A lot of guys on our roster right now that we consider "young" aren't really that young. They lack NHL experience compared to many guys their same age, but they're not exactly teenagers (well, except for Larkin) about to rip through their early 20s.

When I say young I'm referring more to experience as opposed to actual age. And let's face it, Z and Datsyuk are question marks at this point. Holland is not gonna role with a team whose oldest forward is 28, and the majority are substantially younger than that. Can't totally blame him in that regard.

I'm also referring more or less to the forwards when I say that. So I'm looking at guys like Abby, Helm and Miller here. If Holland resigns Quincey (for any reason including this one), he'd be a complete idiot. And I'm not even one of those guys that dislikes Quincey.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Exactly. It may even turn out to be a good deal. Say what you will about Abby but I don't think you can question his character. Take Draper for example. His best offensive production years were in his early to mid 30s. He was 33 or 34 when he won the Selke. After spending his entire career as a grinder playing hard minutes and very long seasons due to playoff runs he had his best years offensively in his 30s. Abby may do the same. His role is far different than what it used to be. Of course he didn't put up a lot of points as a 4th line grinder. He wasn't expected to.

Whatever his production is this deal just flat out isn't a hair on fire galactic disaster like people are making it out to be.

Draper had elite defensive awareness. Abdelkader has a slightly above average net front presence and a bunch of intangibles. His most appropriate comparable is Cleary, who should have been off this team around the age of 33.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I will say this, his bad decisions have been getting worse recently. When people gave him flak for Franzen over Hossa, not landing Suter, signing Sammy and Tootoo, the Quincey trade, etc. I generally shrugged them off and/or could rationalize them. But in the last two years we got the Jarnkrok-Legwand fiasco, the "I can't quit you" promise, and now this trainwreck. We're entering a period where Holland's decision making has to be at its best. Honestly, right now it seems like it's at its worst.

I think it's telling that someone like Jarnkrok is listed among his "bad decisions". Holland hasn't lost anyone of consequence, even if the players he has acquired with his trades/signings have often left something to be desired.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Draper had elite defensive awareness. Abdelkader has a slightly above average net front presence and a bunch of intangibles. His most appropriate comparable is Cleary, who should have been off this team around the age of 33.

The comparison was based on a player that spent his entire career as a grinder and then was asked to take on a more offensive role in his 30s. I am not suggesting Abby will win a Selke. I am suggesting that
A. Players who were previously grinder can and do become scoring players.
B. Players can and do have very productive years in their early to mid 30s. Even guys like Drapes who played hard minutes in a ton of games.

Cleary had knee problems that led to his decline. Different players break down at different ages.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I think it's telling that someone like Jarnkrok is listed among his "bad decisions". Holland hasn't lost anyone of consequence, even if the players he has acquired with his trades/signings have often left something to be desired.

It's a prime example of going to great length to try to rip Holland. Just like citing Bickel's deal. I don't think that deal has crippled Chicago. They're pretty good still right? Or Clarkson. Wasn't that deal over a million more per year?

 

[Ulysses31]

And then in the interview, Holland says "both sides have to give something up" in contract negotiations. What exactly did Abs give up?

hah! my thoughts exactly. was he asking 5 mil a year?

 

[PullHard]

The comparison was based on a player that spent his entire career as a grinder and then was asked to take on a more offensive role in his 30s. I am not suggesting Abby will win a Selke. I am suggesting that
A. Players who were previously grinder can and do become scoring players.
B. Players can and do have very productive years in their early to mid 30s. Even guys like Drapes who played hard minutes in a ton of games.

Cleary had knee problems that led to his decline. Different players break down at different ages.

Draper had one really nice year with 24 goals and 40 points

Everything else was elite 3C production (which Draper was for his best years)

Also IIRC Draper's spike in production was because the team had a lot of F and specifically C injuries that season

And it was obviously unsustainable production, I'm assuming his shooting percentage was sky high in comparison to most of his career

Pointing to one or two of Draper's best seasons at 30 something and 40 points and calling him a grinder turned "scoring player" is about as dishonest as you can possibly be

 

[8snake]

The comparison was based on a player that spent his entire career as a grinder and then was asked to take on a more offensive role in his 30s. I am not suggesting Abby will win a Selke. I am suggesting that
A. Players who were previously grinder can and do become scoring players.
B. Players can and do have very productive years in their early to mid 30s. Even guys like Drapes who played hard minutes in a ton of games.

Cleary had knee problems that led to his decline. Different players break down at different ages.

It's a poor comparison because Draper was an elite skater with elite defensive ability...Abs is an average skater with mediocre defensive ability. Draper also had the benefit of playing with Sergei Fedorov in his 30's...there is no guarantee there will be a player on this roster even remotely close to what Fedorov was when Abs is in his 30's to playing on a wing with.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Draper had one really nice year with 24 goals and 40 points

Everything else was elite 3C production (which Draper was for his best years)

Also IIRC Draper's spike in production was because the team had a lot of F and specifically C injuries that season

And it was obviously unsustainable production, I'm assuming his shooting percentage was sky high in comparison to most of his career

Pointing to one or two of Draper's best seasons at 30 something and 40 points and calling him a grinder turned "scoring player" is about as dishonest as you can possibly be

Actually starting at 30 years old in the 00-01 season his point totals were 25, 30, 35, 40, 32, 29. His previous high was 23. His pt production was highest in his 30s. That isn't dishonest. It's fact.

 

[PullHard]

Actually starting at 30 years old in the 00-01 season his point totals were 25, 30, 35, 40, 32, 29. His previous high was 23. His pt production was highest in his 30s. That isn't dishonest. It's fact.

I don't dispute the timeline of point totals increasing, more the fact that you're in anyway insinuating Kris Draper turned into a "scoring player"

 

[PullHard]

Not to mention you're ignoring the fact that Yzerman's career was coming to an end and Fedorov left the team (two of his biggest hurdles for ice time) while Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not yet elite players

Abdelkader will be a fixture in the top 6 because of his contract, but the team has Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Athanasiou, Svech, Zetterberg, Franzen(?) as top 6/ top 9 Fs in the coming years, so it isn't even close to the same situation.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I don't dispute the timeline of point totals increasing, more the fact that you're in anyway insinuating Kris Draper turned into a "scoring player"

Not to mention you're ignoring the fact that Yzerman's career was coming to an end and Fedorov left the team (two of his biggest hurdles for ice time) while Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not yet elite players

Abdelkader will be a fixture in the top 6 because of his contract, but the team has Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Athanasiou, Svech, Zetterberg, Franzen(?) as top 6/ top 9 Fs in the coming years, so it isn't even close to the same situation.

I was really trying to illustrate that not every player is washed up at 30. Not really trying to compare Drapes to Abby and I don't consider them similar players.

 

[Bench]

Why stop at Draper then? Jagr is going to be awesome until 55.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Why stop at Draper then? Jagr is going to be awesome until 55.

See there you go! How about Howe? I heard he played a long time too.

 

[Dotter]

Not to mention you're ignoring the fact that Yzerman's career was coming to an end and Fedorov left the team (two of his biggest hurdles for ice time) while Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not yet elite players

Abdelkader will be a fixture in the top 6 because of his contract, but the team has Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Athanasiou, Svech, Zetterberg, Franzen(?) as top 6/ top 9 Fs in the coming years, so it isn't even close to the same situation.

Bertuzzi and Athanasiou are bottom 6 players. Svech is suppose to be a center, Franzen is likely done (which might be another reason Holland wanted to get the Abby deal done)...

Mantha... oh boy. I want to stay optimistic, but really hasn't shown anything that screams NHL talent.

That leaves Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin and Zetterberg. Like it or not, but Wings are very, very thin on "Abdelkader" type players. And finding players like him isn't as easy as a waiver pickup or a trade scraps for...

Abdelkader was getting more than this deal on the open market. He didn't give a small home team discount, but he could have gotten more if he held out.

 

[Heaton]

the open market gave Weiss and Clarkson contacts, bringing that up means nothing.

 

[TheMule93]

Gets huge contract

Gets demoted to 4th line the following game

/facepalm

 

[jkutswings]

I didn't suggest Larkin was better than Toews. I suggested that Larkin's production thus far is equal or greater than that of Toews in every statistical category and asked what that was worth in terms of cap/dollars.

That's based on the false assumption that Toews' production is matching his contract, which it clearly isn't thus far this season.

I don't see anything unreasonable about claiming that Larkin is currently providing $4-5 million of value on a dirt cheap contract. While he is certainly ahead of the curve, EVERY entry level player is supposed to provide SOMEWHAT more in value versus contract, or you couldn't ice a team.

 

[Actual Thought*]

That's based on the false assumption that Toews' production is matching his contract, which it clearly isn't thus far this season.

I don't see anything unreasonable about claiming that Larkin is currently providing $4-5 million of value on a dirt cheap contract. While he is certainly ahead of the curve, EVERY entry level player is supposed to provide SOMEWHAT more in value versus contract, or you couldn't ice a team.

I think you have to look at the context of contracts for the team as a whole. Context seems to be missing in a lot of fan "analysis".

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I think you have to look at the context of contracts for the team as a whole. Context seems to be missing in a lot of fan "analysis".

Context is everything, which is what makes this contract extra terrible.

One bad contract like Jonathan Ericsson's is not great, but manageable. Two bad contracts and you start to get in trouble. Three bad contracts, which is where we will be when Mrazek get's his raise and Holland doesn't trade Howard because Ken Holland doesn't do trades, and you are screwed. 11-12 million spent on a backup goalie, third pairing defenseman and a player currently on pace for 38 points.

But you go on and continue to defend every move Holland makes, and blame Blashill instead.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Context is everything, which is what makes this contract extra terrible.

One bad contract like Jonathan Ericsson's is not great, but manageable. Two bad contracts and you start to get in trouble. Three bad contracts, which is where we will be when Mrazek get's his raise and Holland doesn't trade Howard because Ken Holland doesn't do trades, and you are screwed. 11-12 million spent on a backup goalie, third pairing defenseman and a player currently on pace for 38 points.

But you go on and continue to defend every move Holland makes, and blame Blashill instead.

Blashill's failure thus far doesn't require a crystal ball like your assertions do. However I have been quite critical of the hiring of Blashill.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Blashill's failure thus far doesn't require a crystal ball like your assertions do. However I have been quite critical of the hiring of Blashill.

Maybe you should have faith in the best GM in hockey. He has complete faith in Blashill.

Clearly he knows better than you do right?