Wings on path to shatter post cap goal differential

[Henkka]

What's the team record for worst? Anybody know??

1974-75 Capitals - 8 wins, 0.131 points%
1992-93 Senators - 10 wins, 0.143 points%
1992-93 Sharks - 11 wins, 0.143 points%

Those are ultimate worst.

Since 2000:

2019-20 Red Wings - 17 wins, 0.250 points% (still 31 games left)
2016-17 Avalanche - 22 wins, 0.293 points%

 

[theYman]

1974-75 Capitals - 8 wins, 0.131 points%
1992-93 Senators - 10 wins, 0.143 points%
1992-93 Sharks - 11 wins, 0.143 points%

Those are ultimate worst.

Since 2000:

2019-20 Red Wings - 17 wins, 0.250 points% (still 31 games left)
2016-17 Avalanche - 22 wins, 0.293 points%

 

[theYman]

I meant Red Wings team worst.

 

[jkutswings]

I meant Red Wings team worst.

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but couldn't find it:

The 10 worst Detroit Red Wings seasons in history

"The two worst seasons are 1985-86 (17-57-6) and 1976-77 (16-55-9)."

 

[avssuc]

1974-75 Capitals - 8 wins, 0.131 points%
1992-93 Senators - 10 wins, 0.143 points%
1992-93 Sharks - 11 wins, 0.143 points%

Those are ultimate worst.

Since 2000:

2019-20 Red Wings - 17 wins, 0.250 points% (still 31 games left)
2016-17 Avalanche - 22 wins, 0.293 points%

I think the Wings might get more wins than the 16-17 Avs by the end. Mantha will be back, Seider will play 9 of the next 31, so 23 wins isn't impossible.

This sort of thing looks bad for the NHL, so I could see officiating powering the Wings to a couple W's in an effort to support the notion of parity inside of their insane lottery system. Conspiracy theories are about all I can get excited over until the Wings get jobbed in the lottery.

 

[avssuc]

I think any comparison is irrelevant due to the situations being so drastically different.

You can have a discussion about it, but the Wings are in such a unique spot right now, because they are building the roster but for this season + next season, they are letting contracts roll off books.

So are you saying that we shouldn't compare because the Wings are light years ahead of the previous suck that has been put together since 2005?

Or are you saying that no other team was rebuilding when they were the worst in the league?

Your post is a bit confusing, but thanks for giving us the okay to have the discussion.

 

[Flowah]

Yeah... I know we wanted to try to keep our "winning culture", but unfortunately these things have a shelf life.

You can't have a winning culture without actually winning.

And I don't think our veteran overload helped us win.

Why wouldn't they believe we would restock through the draft?

Because the odds of landing on the elite players we would need to replace Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall from where we were picking are infinitesimally small?

You'll always find elite players in the draft *somewhere* but the draft is so much of a crapshoot it's pretty unrealistic to expect scouts to find them. Though I'm sure it was more the Russian factor with Kuzy/Kuch.

 

[jkutswings]

So are you saying that we shouldn't compare because the Wings are light years ahead of the previous suck that has been put together since 2005?

Or are you saying that no other team was rebuilding when they were the worst in the league?

Your post is a bit confusing, but thanks for giving us the okay to have the discussion.

Condescension aside, I don't believe Colorado had over $30M coming off the books in a 24-month span. So the point is, yes, both Detroit and Colorado have an historically awful season in their repertoire, but the Wings have a singular chance at MASSIVE turnover this summer and the next, so let's see what they do with it.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

It shows just how bad we are. We have 1 defenseman right now, the other is done for the year. And we have 2/3rds of our top line.

Obviously we were going to bad, we will be bad again next year. I think stevie is waiting until after the expansion draft., at that point the bad contracts and expansion draft are behind us.

 

[Henkka]

Condescension aside, I don't believe Colorado had over $30M coming off the books in a 24-month span. So the point is, yes, both Detroit and Colorado have an historically awful season in their repertoire, but the Wings have a singular chance at MASSIVE turnover this summer and the next, so let's see what they do with it.

This is very interesting. Used money pretty determines how strong you are.

We have currently roster worth of ~40M and depleted with injuries. You add 20 million for that, and you definitely raise from the bottom. You add another 20M for that, and you are a playoff team. And at same time, if you have managed to draft young players, who are ready to jump in with bargain ELCs, you are a contender.

That how the circle of Cap-NHL goes, and it should not be surprise for anybody.

 

[TheOtherOne]

You can't have a winning culture without actually winning.

And I don't think our veteran overload helped us win.

Because the odds of landing on the elite players we would need to replace Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall from where we were picking are infinitesimally small?

You'll always find elite players in the draft *somewhere* but the draft is so much of a crapshoot it's pretty unrealistic to expect scouts to find them. Though I'm sure it was more the Russian factor with Kuzy/Kuch.

It's pretty unrealistic to win the Stanley Cup but there are a bunch of teams trying to do it every year anyway.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You can't have a winning culture without actually winning.

And I don't think our veteran overload helped us win.

Because the odds of landing on the elite players we would need to replace Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall from where we were picking are infinitesimally small?

You'll always find elite players in the draft *somewhere* but the draft is so much of a crapshoot it's pretty unrealistic to expect scouts to find them. Though I'm sure it was more the Russian factor with Kuzy/Kuch.

If it is unreasonable to expect it, why do you call for a guy's head if his drafting is bad? I mean, it's an unreasonable ask to find elite talent, right?

I agree that it is unreasonable to have the expectation, but it's also the name of the game. Depending on how you frame it, you could say that all teams but one fail. If you don't want to/think it's a bad idea to build your team through FA and you need to have value to trade for value... where do you expect that the players will come from but the draft? Replacing Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall is infinitesimally small odds no matter where you pick. It also is quite literally a GM's job to pursue that goal.

So are you saying that we shouldn't compare because the Wings are light years ahead of the previous suck that has been put together since 2005?

Or are you saying that no other team was rebuilding when they were the worst in the league?

Your post is a bit confusing, but thanks for giving us the okay to have the discussion.

I worded it that way because in previous times when I've brought up logical problems with what is being discussed, I was shouted down as "not letting people discuss things on a discussion board". I was just saying that the Wings rebuild (like jkuts says with 30M coming off the books and within two years being down to 5 signed players if nobody else was added) is not similar to Vancouver who already should have the young core pieces they need if they were looking to build or that Avs roster in 16-17 that had similar results, but also had three or four players who were much better than anything Detroit has. You're telling me Detroit if you swapped MacKinnon for Larkin, Mantha for Rantanen, and Filppula for Matt Duchene would be anywhere near where they are right now? That was my point. The other team that was remotely close to Detroit's current performance is the 16-17 Avs who had absolutely no right being as bad as they were. It's not a fruitful discussion to compare the 19-20 Wings to the other "rebuilds" unless maybe you wanted to look at Buffalo in the McEichel year.

I'm saying that you shouldn't compare to other teams rebuilding in 19-20 or to the similarly awful 16-17 Avs because the situation is so different for both. Any other rebuilding team right now like Vancouver has elite pieces and is trying to piece together a roster. The Wings literally have a team where about three-four guys currently playing for them will be around after the expansion draft in two years.

 

[Frk It]

I agree that it is unreasonable to have the expectation, but it's also the name of the game. Depending on how you frame it, you could say that all teams but one fail. If you don't want to/think it's a bad idea to build your team through FA and you need to have value to trade for value... where do you expect that the players will come from but the draft? Replacing Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall is infinitesimally small odds no matter where you pick. It also is quite literally a GM's job to pursue that goal.

Just because a GM is saying re-build on the fly is the plan doesn't mean we have to believe it is viable. I think it's just more likely that we prioritized remaining a winning club as long as possible and extending the streak over finding a new core, but "rebuilding on the fly" sounds a hell of a lot nicer.

I mean, who is ready to take over for Malkin/Crosby in Pittsburgh? Guentzel is a nice player, but the answer is no one. Will they find a new core drafting 20-30 every year before Crosby and Malkin retire? I have a lot of money I will bet that the answer is no.

Looking back on everything... Do I blame us for what we did? No, because I never would have been OK with trading Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Do I think it was a viable way of getting a new core? No, absolutely not.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Condescension aside, I don't believe Colorado had over $30M coming off the books in a 24-month span. So the point is, yes, both Detroit and Colorado have an historically awful season in their repertoire, but the Wings have a singular chance at MASSIVE turnover this summer and the next, so let's see what they do with it.

But the Avs did...

I don't know if it was over $30M, but the Avs did have a ton of cap come off the books within 24 months of that awful season.... Guys like Iginla, Beauchemin, Comeau, Tyutin, Colborne, Mitchell and Gelinas were set to come off the books in either that offseason or the following, and Varlamov came off two seasons later. It was also pretty much a foregone conclusion that Duchene and Barrie were likely to be traded in the near future.

As for turnover, similar to the Wings this season, the bottom of the Avs line-up was filled with mostly fringe guys and waiver fodder that would be easily replaced.

Since that season, the Avs have been one of the lowest spending teams in the NHL, and since they've been back in the playoffs, there's always been huge speculation around what the Avs are going to with all their cap space when trade deadlines, the draft and free agency come around each year.

 

[Retire91]

I don't understand the point of defending a "winning culture" as long as possible when the net result is this bad. Especially when that "winning culture" has cleary on your power play, Abby on your top line, and has zero chance of winning a cup.

Was the plan seriously to replace Daytsuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom, from 16 - 30 in the draft?

 

[TheClap]

I was kinda disappointed when I saw that. Part of me really wanted the Wings to be the worst ever, the other part struggled to understand how that's mathematically possible.



This is really the only comment that I identify with so far. This is almost Detroit Lions mediocrity, so all you can do is try to medicate.

Hey, at least the Red Wings didn't fire a beloved player's coach with a winning record for an alleged rapist with no head coaching experience who took 2 seasons to match the previous guy's win total in the season he was fired.

 

[avssuc]

I worded it that way because in previous times when I've brought up logical problems with what is being discussed, I was shouted down as "not letting people discuss things on a discussion board". I was just saying that the Wings rebuild (like jkuts says with 30M coming off the books and within two years being down to 5 signed players if nobody else was added) is not similar to Vancouver

Cap space for the Wings is as limiting as the elevation was for the Avs in their rebuild. Sure, they could take on contracts for futures, but I'm pretty sure folks would burn LCA to the ground if the Wings became a cap floor team.

Were you on team Holland, or team shoot Holland into the sun? If you're b******g about that cap room, but loved you some Kenny, you might want to review those two opposing views. While I believe Mr I pushed for that, Holland could have had some god***n pride and pulled a Dave Dombrowski.


So if you were a Holland apologist, which I believe you were, I'm not sure why I'm even responding to this circular logic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'll stop running my suck and eat some crow.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Cap space for the Wings is as limiting as the elevation was for the Avs in their rebuild. Sure, they could take on contracts for futures, but I'm pretty sure folks would burn LCA to the ground if the Wings became a cap floor team.

Were you on team Holland, or team shoot Holland into the sun? If you're b******g about that cap room, but loved you some Kenny, you might want to review those two opposing views. While I believe Mr I pushed for that, Holland could have had some god***n pride and pulled a Dave Dombrowski.


So if you were a Holland apologist, which I believe you were, I'm not sure why I'm even responding to this circular logic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'll stop running my suck and eat some crow.

A few things.

1) Holland is gone. He's got nothing to do with the Wings anymore. I mean, it's always been a bit ridiculous to poopoo someone's opinion because they don't think management should literally lose their jobs and life because they didn't accomplish something with a miniscule chance of working. I mean, there are legitimate reasons the Wings did what they did that weren't "Bad man ruins team doesn't care".
2) Mr. I spent four decades funnelling money into the Wings. Anything they needed, they got. If your owner in failing health says he wants you to aim for the playoffs and keep a streak, then by ****ing god, you go for the playoffs and keep the streak. It's got nothing to do with "pulling a Dombrowski" as some stroke of genius or anything that special. The Tigers were a rudderless team after 2014 that was operating FAR beyond its means and was going to be socked with some ridiculous penalties (like 30-40M) via the luxury tax if they didn't do something. The Wings did not have that pressure. They did have the pressure of spend the money owed to Z and Franzen to utilize LTIR or operate with a 10M lower cap than everyone else.
3) I'm not, nor have I ever, *****ed about cap room. Throughout all of this, Detroit has always had the money available to make moves. Not to be stupid and reckless to whatever... but they, if he'd have talked to them, had the money for Stamkos. They had it for Suter, Parise, Tavares, whoever. They've not ever once been hamstrung to be unable to make a move. The best players they've "lost" due to cap shenanigans were Ville Leino in a Cup year, Riley Sheahan (who they could have kept with what AA ended up signing for), and needing to trade Datsyuk's deal (which brought them their best current D in Hronek)

But yeah, I'm not arguing with you anymore if your response is "Oh, you loved Holland didn't you!?" Holland made clear mistakes in building his team and wasn't as aggressive as he could/should have been. It is good he moved on. But Holland's gone, dude. And within the next year or two, so is $30M in the contracts he signed. No, Holland did not make the best moves for the Red Wings. But acting like he was Cledus the Slack Jawed Yokel is just disingenuous. All those players you're excited for right now (sans Seider)? Those are Holland and Tyler Wright picks.

 

[Flowah]

If it is unreasonable to expect it, why do you call for a guy's head if his drafting is bad? I mean, it's an unreasonable ask to find elite talent, right?

Because the guy refused to allow this team to fall to positions where drafting elite talent was more possible.

If he can't hit elite players elsewhere, he's got to position the team to get them where he can. If he's doing neither, I'm gonna call for his head.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I don't understand the point of defending a "winning culture" as long as possible when the net result is this bad. Especially when that "winning culture" has cleary on your power play, Abby on your top line, and has zero chance of winning a cup.

Winning culture is clearly a crock anyway (it's amazing how fast even historically bad teams acquire one once they get some real talent).

 

[Retire91]

A few things.

1) Holland is gone. He's got nothing to do with the Wings anymore. I mean, it's always been a bit ridiculous to poopoo someone's opinion because they don't think management should literally lose their jobs and life because they didn't accomplish something with a miniscule chance of working. I mean, there are legitimate reasons the Wings did what they did that weren't "Bad man ruins team doesn't care".
2) Mr. I spent four decades funnelling money into the Wings. Anything they needed, they got. If your owner in failing health says he wants you to aim for the playoffs and keep a streak, then by ****ing god, you go for the playoffs and keep the streak. It's got nothing to do with "pulling a Dombrowski" as some stroke of genius or anything that special. The Tigers were a rudderless team after 2014 that was operating FAR beyond its means and was going to be socked with some ridiculous penalties (like 30-40M) via the luxury tax if they didn't do something. The Wings did not have that pressure. They did have the pressure of spend the money owed to Z and Franzen to utilize LTIR or operate with a 10M lower cap than everyone else.
3) I'm not, nor have I ever, *****ed about cap room. Throughout all of this, Detroit has always had the money available to make moves. Not to be stupid and reckless to whatever... but they, if he'd have talked to them, had the money for Stamkos. They had it for Suter, Parise, Tavares, whoever. They've not ever once been hamstrung to be unable to make a move. The best players they've "lost" due to cap shenanigans were Ville Leino in a Cup year, Riley Sheahan (who they could have kept with what AA ended up signing for), and needing to trade Datsyuk's deal (which brought them their best current D in Hronek)

But yeah, I'm not arguing with you anymore if your response is "Oh, you loved Holland didn't you!?" Holland made clear mistakes in building his team and wasn't as aggressive as he could/should have been. It is good he moved on. But Holland's gone, dude. And within the next year or two, so is $30M in the contracts he signed. No, Holland did not make the best moves for the Red Wings. But acting like he was Cledus the Slack Jawed Yokel is just disingenuous. All those players you're excited for right now (sans Seider)? Those are Holland and Tyler Wright picks.

LOL Holland is not gone, he is all over this roster. There are Holland players still on the cap that aren't even on the team anymore. He got a couple wins in the draft but didn't do better than average at best when weighed against the results of 2/3 the other teams. He did #$$% all in UFA or trades to suplement the mediocre drafting. Drawing a line in the sand and saying Holland is gone is a pretty Bold claim when Danny D, Abby, Weiss, Howard, Neilsen, Helm Erickson, Green Weiss are all still hitting the cap. You are about a season and a half too early for that claim.

 

[Oddbob]

Hey, at least the Red Wings didn't fire a beloved player's coach with a winning record for an alleged rapist with no head coaching experience who took 2 seasons to match the previous guy's win total in the season he was fired.

Who is the alleged rapist?

 

[Konnan511]

Records are made to be broken. Let's be #1, baby!

USA! USA! USA!

 

[TheClap]

Who is the alleged rapist?

Fat Patricia

Lions’ Patricia indicted, not tried in ’96 sex assault

 

[jkutswings]

This seems like as good a thread as any to post this factoid:

Detroit is currently on pace for 43 points. LA is currently second to last, and already has 43 points now, so they would have to go 0-29-0 the rest of the year to tie the Wings (at Detroit's current pace).

I'm finally on board with saying the worst record is in the bag.

EDIT: Alternatively, LA is currently on pace for 66 points. Detroit would have to go 18-9-2 in their remaining games to catch the Kings.