Wings fan spoke: It's Time for Holland to move on (but we'll still talk about him)

[jkutswings]

Didnt like Helm signing but I'm warming up to now. Hated Vanek signing but obviously I was wrong. Ott.. let's see. Not many players looked good last game. Doesn't mean we are going to lose 81 remaining game same fashion.

I'm not basing my offseason evaluation on whether they win or lose their first game. It's based on the fact that the biggest need went unaddressed, while they continued to overprioritize veteran role players.

If you're building a car, a transmission is important. And it's fine to have the most high-end transmission on the market. But if you've spent the last of your budget tricking out the transmission, and you still haven't fixed the engine that's been on its last legs for several years, that's not exactly a smart way to build a car.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Craig Custance, who is a reasonable guy and generally seems to have his finger on the pulse with regard to the Wings:

Let’s talk about the Red Wings for a minute. Being based in Detroit, I hear the calls that wish management and the coaching staff would give young players more of an opportunity. There’s frustration that players like Frans Nielsen and Thomas Vanek are brought in at the cost of top-six ice time for the young forwards.

Red Wings fans see Edmonton, Toronto, Philadelphia, Winnipeg, Arizona and all these other organizations playing the young talent, and want to see the same thing happening in Detroit. I totally understand it. That’s where the league is headed.

I agree that it would do the Red Wings well to take their foot off the gas, move some veterans and spend time in the draft lottery. They need a top-three talent badly.

But as it stands right now, the young players in the organization aren’t those type of players. If Red Wings coach Jeff Blashill had young talent at his disposal like Dylan Strome, Matthews, Marner, Ivan Provorov, Laine or McDavid, you bet they’d be going young in Detroit. Those players aren’t walking through the Red Wings dressing room door.

The Red Wings have one young player right now you could consider elite and that’s Dylan Larkin. He’s playing.

Guys like Anthony Mantha, Tyler Bertuzzi, Andreas Athanasiou -- these are good young players. They’ll end up playing in the NHL. But these aren’t elite young players.

As for waivers, how often does a young player on waivers end up coming back to haunt the team that cuts them loose? We probably make a bigger deal out of the daily waiver wire than we should. Normally, it ends up being irrelevant. That’s probably the case here.

If you’re a Red Wings fan, don’t get upset that the coach isn’t playing the young players in the organization enough right now. Get upset that this team refuses to take the necessary step back needed to acquire elite, young talent. Even for one or two years.

 

[Yemack]

I'm not basing my offseason evaluation on whether they win or lose their first game. It's based on the fact that the biggest need went unaddressed, while they continued to overprioritize veteran role players.

If you're building a car, a transmission is important. And it's fine to have the most high-end transmission on the market. But if you've spent the last of your budget tricking out the transmission, and you still haven't fixed the engine that's been on its last legs for several years, that's not exactly a smart way to build a car.

I like your analogy but building a car and building a team in NHL with cap space and with real people that have mileage on them is slightly different. For instance, you know what you are getting when you buy a ZF transimission, or suspension from Delphi. Hence when you commit to a part in 5-6 year deal, you can work around if you find it has less chemistry with other parts. Not really that case with real people. Players age and unlike car parts they dont really get upgraded as time rolls along. They usually decrease in performance. So once you have built a great product that can beat every competition in market at that price range, you tend to make long term contract that you shouldn't out of loyalty and what not. btw I have been very critical about any long term contracts. I criticized Holland on pretty much every long term contracts.

I dont agree Wings are over relying on vets. Well actually it is true but that's only because younger players are not better than them at their roles. We need to win now and those younger players with huge potential are going to end up in our roster on way or the other when they are ready anyways. I share your concern about our D but I stand firm that we should wait to see what happens. Once the wheels fall off, well it's time for a overhaul. btw I was the first one to suggest tank idea and got heavily criticized by some of the same people in this thread. Deep down, I still support tank idea but at the same time, I think the team is competitive as it is.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

but that's only because younger players are not better than them at their roles.

I don't think that's really ever been true since the gradual youth movement began. And since it began, people have lobbied similar comments. But Tatar, Sheahan, and Nyquist were all clearly better than Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson, and the same is probably true now of Mantha, AA, and Larkin. You never know unless you give the guys a legit chance.

We need to win now

Why?

 

[Yemack]

I don't think that's really ever been true since the gradual youth movement began. And since it began, people have lobbied similar comments. But Tatar, Sheahan, and Nyquist were all clearly better than Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson, and the same is probably true now of Mantha, AA, and Larkin. You never know unless you give the guys a legit chance.

Why?

And guess what Tatar, Sheahan, Nyquist are on this team helping significantly one way or the other. I say Wings did good job developing them as fine NHL players. Whether they should have gotten spots over some vets, the result speak for themselves. Everything else is what ifs.

As for why we need to win now? why not? There's only one instance where fans are ok with team not winning that is when the team is tanking. You in for tank movement now? If we are trying a complete rebuild and youth movement it should not be half assed. It's either complete tank or shouldnt even try.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

And guess what Tatar, Sheahan, Nyquist are on this team helping significantly one way or the other. I say Wings did good job developing them as fine NHL players. Whether they should have gotten spots over some vets, the result speak for themselves. Everything else is what ifs.

As for why we need to win now? why not? There's only one instance where fans are ok with team not winning that is when the team is tanking. You in for tank movement now? If we are trying a complete rebuild and youth movement it should not be half assed. It's either complete tank or shouldnt even try.

Having them on the team sooner might have actually lead to more desirable results as opposed to frequent first and occasional second round exits, because they were clearly superior to the players who they replaced.

Also, yeah. The time to rebuild is now. Trade everyone but Hank, who's contract is unmovable, and also because he can mentor the kids. Also, considering everything he's given the organization and his HHOF status, he should finish his career here.

 

[TheMule93]

And guess what Tatar, Sheahan, Nyquist are on this team helping significantly one way or the other. I say Wings did good job developing them as fine NHL players. Whether they should have gotten spots over some vets, the result speak for themselves. Everything else is what ifs.

As for why we need to win now? why not? There's only one instance where fans are ok with team not winning that is when the team is tanking. You in for tank movement now? If we are trying a complete rebuild and youth movement it should not be half assed. It's either complete tank or shouldnt even try.

Why though? If we try to win now there is no path to a cup. We lack elite talent to build around. We won't win a cup without elite talent. We won't get elite talent trying to win now.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Craig Custance, who is a reasonable guy and generally seems to have his finger on the pulse with regard to the Wings:

Well, France Nielsen, as a sharp hockey mind, you know that it's a little surprising for such an esteemed member of the hockey media world to publically come out against the Wings' organizational strategy. I think that's got to be a bold step, and maybe we'll see more prominent media figures start to call for a rebuild.

 

[Yemack]

Why though? If we try to win now there is no path to a cup. We lack elite talent to build around. We won't win a cup without elite talent. We won't get elite talent trying to win now.

As much as I want a team full of high draft pick like some other teams, the time to tank isn't now. This team has made playoff for a very long time and you do not start the fire sale when you have a competitive team like Wings do right now. Also Wings have almost defied the gravity and are staying a float right now. We may not going to be a world beater but since we just have enough pieces right now that if something falls on our lap, all of sudden, we could be a pretty strong team. I am not a quitter who want to pull the plug when we have enough pieces like that. Am I stubborn and delaying the inevitable? Maybe, but I have a faith in our roster right now.I think you guys are selling our current roster too short. If we did not have enough pieces, well you dont need to convince me since Wings wouldn't have made playoff anyways and then the process would have already started.

Also there's the side of entertainment. How many of you who support full tank right now honestly are going to stick around when your shining youngsters are playing instead of vets and getting destroyed night after night? Let me tell you it's going to take a very very long time. Let's not kid ourselves. I consider myself as pretty hardcore hockey fan but I'm not even sure if I'll be around. I praise you fans who stayed and watched those Dead things era but most of us dont know what a bad team even looks like.

 

[Yemack]

I praise you fans who stayed and watched those Dead things era but most of us dont know what a bad team even looks like.

Well we certainly saw a glimpse of that tonight. Holy mother Jesus.

 

[SirKillalot]

So, we have made a new NHL-website, where we will write about the NHL from our own point of view.

Among that, we did previews of all of the teams.

Of course the Red Wings were included in that.

Goaltending – 7/10

With Petr Mrazek and Jimmy Howard between the pipes, the Red Wings do have a good goaltending duo. However, it’s an expensive duo and it can be a bit inconsistent. Howard is seen as a possible player to get traded in a package to a team who can take on the contract, if Detroit gets something useful back, while Mrazek is seen as a star in the making. Both goalies have the ability to go on a hot streak.

Defense – 6/10

The defense isn’t great, but it’s not bad either. However, it hasn’t been working the way the Red Wings want their D to work. A quick transitioning game and outbreak play from the backend to the forwards. DeKeyser need to take more steps to prove why the Red Wings signed him to his deal.

https://nhlnor.com/2016/10/12/season-preview-detroit-red-wings

Would you agree with the assessment? Or is it something you disagree with?

How do you feel we rank up against the other teams?

 

[odin1981]

6/10 is way too generous man. We have at best a 4 outta 10.

 

[Bench]

I think the Wings defense is likely the worst in the league. Zero top talents and some guys who probably struggle to get NHL contracts if they hit free agency. Do we really think Ericsson, Marchenko, or even Smith get anything but a 1 year no-risk deal like Quincey?

Now consider Kronwall is saddled with a chronic injury and you're left with Mike Green and DeKeyser to do all the heavy lifting. That's an overwhelmed top pairing every single night.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I think the Wings defense is likely the worst in the league. Zero top talents and some guys who probably struggle to get NHL contracts if they hit free agency. Do we really think Ericsson, Marchenko, or even Smith get anything but a 1 year no-risk deal like Quincey?

Now consider Kronwall is saddled with a chronic injury and you're left with Mike Green and DeKeyser to do all the heavy lifting. That's an overwhelmed top pairing every single night.

What's sad is we let Quincey walk, and he would easily be the 2nd or 3rd best player on this defence. Honestly, I'd rather have kept Quincey on a 1 year dear than sign Helm for a bazillion dollars.

 

[HisNoodliness]

So, we have made a new NHL-website, where we will write about the NHL from our own point of view.

Among that, we did previews of all of the teams.

Of course the Red Wings were included in that.





https://nhlnor.com/2016/10/12/season-preview-detroit-red-wings

Would you agree with the assessment? Or is it something you disagree with?

How do you feel we rank up against the other teams?

I'd give our goaltending an 8/10 personally. Sure Howard is bad and expensive but put Mrazek behind an NHL defense and I think he'd be a perennial vezinna candidate, winning it frequently. He's carrying this team right now. I'd give our defense a 3/10. Dekeyser is a #3 defenseman. Green a #4. The others would struggle to make pretty much any other roster.

 

[Dotter]

Well we certainly saw a glimpse of that tonight. Holy mother Jesus.

This comment is dishonest and hyperbolic. The dead things era was a completely different beast with bad ownership and management.

You may not like the way ownership/management is running the team, but please don't compare this era to the dead things era. That's a direct insult to us oldtimers who had to live through that era.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I think the Wings defense is likely the worst in the league. Zero top talents and some guys who probably struggle to get NHL contracts if they hit free agency. Do we really think Ericsson, Marchenko, or even Smith get anything but a 1 year no-risk deal like Quincey?

Now consider Kronwall is saddled with a chronic injury and you're left with Mike Green and DeKeyser to do all the heavy lifting. That's an overwhelmed top pairing every single night.

I almost hate to even say it, but can you imagine if Green, DK, or Kronwall goes down with a long term injury??

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

This comment is dishonest and hyperbolic. The dead things era was a completely different beast with bad ownership and management.

You may not like the way ownership/management is running the team, but please don't compare this era to the dead things era. That's a direct insult to us oldtimers who had to live through that era.

Agreed.

The '85-86 season before they brought in Jacques Demers, the team had 17 wins. They only had 6 ties too. In an 80 game season, the Red Wings lost 63 times.

Between 1967 and 1983 the Wings only made the playoffs 4 times, and that's during an era where nearly everyone made the playoffs.

I have a hard time being excited about this team but they are absolutely not the Dead Things.

 

[Yemack]

well I just said I saw a glimpse. Hopefully we never get to see that again.

However

Swiss cheese D in neutral zone.
Huge blunders.
Sitting back in our zone getting led to side Panthers want us to.
Forward not being able to penetrate the wall in neutral zone.
Just lack of smart execution anywhere on ice

I've seen better hockey from teams actively tanking than this.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Honestly, what the org wants really doesn't matter on the message board. If we disagree with it, we disagree with it.

To the extent that is as far as the argument goes, you are correct.

As soon as it progresses to the point where people are claiming the organization is doing stupid things, it becomes moot because assessing the moves of a team against your own goals is silly when the team clearly and obviously has other ones.

And it has nothing to do with the PK.

Sure it does. Being able to PK /= being able to PK fairly well, and as we should already know, the team doesn't want to tank, so they want to insure a fairly competent level of performance on the PK (among other things). So, they snag a couple vets who they know can be decent to good PKers for those roles.

Birds in hands, birds in bushes.

As always, the team values depth. So, they have a number of different options for a number of roles. This means that even if the team signs a Miller and an Ott (or even more vets), neither their role nor their time is carved into granite, either through poor performance, injury, or exceptional play from beneath them.

 

[RedWingzz]

6/10 is way too generous man. We have at best a 4 outta 10.

Should have drafted Chychrun, ate the Datsyuk cap hit, been bad all year and drafted another D this year. Then we'd have 2 D with top pair potential.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Every year the Wings waste now before rebuilding is one less year of Larkin and Mrazek's prime.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Every year the Wings waste now before rebuilding is one less year of Larkin and Mrazek's prime.

Rebuilding pretty much requires trading Larkin and Mrazek anyway, so what difference does that make?

 

[Syckle78]

Rebuilding pretty much requires trading Larkin and Mrazek anyway, so what difference does that make?

No it doesn't. They're not going to prop up the team to the point of making the difference in draft spots. It's absolutely possible to rebuild around them. They aren't prime Gretzky and Hasek.

 

[Bench]

No it doesn't. They're not going to prop up the team to the point of making the difference in draft spots. It's absolutely possible to rebuild around them. They aren't prime Gretzky and Hasek.

We don't even know if Larkin actually is a future 1st line center or if Mrazek will be a reliable starting goalie.

If you consider the possibility one or both of those don't materialize, it's looking rough. We've kind of taken for granted they'd just pan out and compete with other top tier talents.