Wings fan spoke: It's Time for Holland to move on (but we'll still talk about him)

[ArGarBarGar]

Dotter was the one that wanted to open that door.

I am glad that Vanek scored some goals but am very, very worried about his skating.

I think Vanek is a good signing at his price. He is slow but like we saw last night he typically knows how to get into areas where he has the best chance to score. I have much bigger worries currently.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

I think Vanek is a good signing at his price. He is slow but like we saw last night he typically knows how to get into areas where he has the best chance to score. I have much bigger worries currently.

It's a 1 year show me deal. I love those deals. Also like the nearly instant chemistry he has with Nyquist as well. Going with 3 scoring type lines I am not sure I like Helm's deal. Would have rather have someone else between them.

 

[Frk It]

I think Vanek is a good signing at his price. He is slow but like we saw last night he typically knows how to get into areas where he has the best chance to score. I have much bigger worries currently.

I agree, and he will be playing with either Helm, Larkin, or Nielsen as his center-- they should all be able to compensate for him.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I think Vanek is a good signing at his price. He is slow but like we saw last night he typically knows how to get into areas where he has the best chance to score. I have much bigger worries currently.

Agreed. In isolation I don't really have a problem with the Vanek signing. Low risk with potential high reward.

But it's a signing to help an issue that's not even in the top 5 biggest issues with the Wings. Those 5 all being defense.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I wonder in another time line if Holland had just gave Z, Kronwall and Franzen normal length contracts and had to pony up more what the outcome would be

That Summer? We probably lose Hudler (who went to Russia anyway), Samuelsson and maybe Filppula aka the players we chose over Hossa.

As for the future, who knows it's hard to project.

 

[Retire91]

Vanek signing wasn't terrible just a small cog in what adds up to be larger issues. Season after season of veteran bandaids to patch leaks on a sinking ship.

 

[BinCookin]

Dotter was the one that wanted to open that door.

I am glad that Vanek scored some goals but am very, very worried about his skating.

If we just compare Vanek to Pulkkinen.

Vanek scores in tight on the PP.
Vanek can score with wrist shots.
Vanek is a large man.

Vanek does not have the slap shot Pulkkinen does.

Both are not great skaters.

Overall I think we have improved our 3rd line wing position. We do not pay him a lot.

If he has 10 pts in first 15 games, i will be more than happy.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

If we just compare Vanek to Pulkkinen.

Vanek scores in tight on the PP.
Vanek can score with wrist shots.
Vanek is a large man.

Vanek does not have the slap shot Pulkkinen does.

Both are not great skaters.

Overall I think we have improved our 3rd line wing position. We do not pay him a lot.

If he has 10 pts in first 15 games, i will be more than happy.

Also, Vanek uses his brain. Pulk does not.

 

[Dotter]

Another observation you could make:

We needed help on defense... signed all forwards and made 0 trades in the offseason... allowed 6 goals against in our 1st game.

Wasn't DRWs one of the lowest scoring teams last season?

 

[njx9]

Wasn't DRWs one of the lowest scoring teams last season?

In part because of our inability to transition because of our defense's collective inability to pass. The two things aren't unrelated.

 

[Dotter]

In part because of our inability to transition because of our defense's collective inability to pass. The two things aren't unrelated.

Safe defense as last season and Vanek has 2 goals and Nielsen 1.

Pulkennen and Niestrsil both have 0 combined. Asset management...

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Safe defense as last season and Vanek has 2 goals and Nielsen 1.

Pulkennen and Niestrsil both have 0 combined. Asset management...

I'm sorry, did we trade Pulkkinen and Nestrasil for Vanek and Nielsen?

 

[njx9]

Safe defense as last season and Vanek has 2 goals and Nielsen 1.

Pulkennen and Niestrsil both have 0 combined. Asset management...

I don't think this is demonstrative of or evidence for anything other than the results of a single game (loss).

 

[Dotter]

I'm sorry, did we trade Pulkkinen and Nestrasil for Vanek and Nielsen?

No, just upgraded from worthless scrubs to goal scoring NHL power that significantly helps the team. IMO, KH deserves praise for identifying and bringing NHL players to the team while disposing of the garbage.

"But, but, but he didn't address our true need!!!" Lol, and he also isn't trading Dylan Larkin to address that need either.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

why're people intentionally lying here by saying pulks and frk or vanek and nielsen

lets stick to the facts before anyone else decides to write songs for the spin doctors ok

helm, ott, miller and glenny are the ones fans are talking about not vanek and nielsen when speaking about aa, mantha, bert, frk or pulkinnen

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think Vanek is a good signing at his price. He is slow but like we saw last night he typically knows how to get into areas where he has the best chance to score. I have much bigger worries currently.

Oh, I agree that he is way down on the list of current concerns and was a risk worth taking. I just wanted to get out on record before the honeymoon wears off and everyone starts *****ing about his skating 20 games from now when the production gets colder.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

why're people intentionally lying here by saying pulks and frk or vanek and nielsen

lets stick to the facts before anyone else decides to write songs for the spin doctors ok

helm, ott, miller and glenny are the ones fans are talking about not vanek and nielsen when speaking about aa, mantha, bert, frk or pulkinnen

Now for those that are huge fans of tanking I understand not answering this. But show me the team in the NHL that isn't playing a fourth line and rolling with unproven kids and is successful? The only ones that sort of qualify are brutal teams.

See if they for some reason bought into a new team building concept (we could call it the EA Sports team building) that virtually nobody in the league is using people would be killing something else while we were getting beat.

The problem remains the defense. But in lieu of not getting the bites we would like from UFA's there and not having enough for a trade, with the mandate from ownership to make the playoffs he has done that up front. It is their best shot for their goals. Maybe not your goals for them, but pretty clearly the organizational goals.

Ott, Miller, Helm and Glendening aren't blocking most of what we are talking about. They are actually blocking Nosek. I do think Frk could have played some fourth line. But Mantha isn't a fourth line player, AA shouldn't be a fourth line player. Bertuzzi should be being developed to be more than a fourth line player.

Vanek and Nielsen were brought in really to replace/upgrade on Datsyuk and cover some of the slippage of Zetterberg. But overall they help slot guys into roles where they will hopefully be more successful.

The real key was always packaging one of our picks (1st or 2nd rounder) which people seem particularly unwilling to move along with Tatar or Nyquist for something on the back-end. Hopefully the prices get there and we pay that. Because this isn't a great draft year by most accounts, so being bad but not horrible isn't going to help us much. That is the real change we need and I don't care which one of Nyquist or Tatar is sent along with a high draft pick to make it happen.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

No, just upgraded from worthless scrubs to goal scoring NHL power that significantly helps the team. IMO, KH deserves praise for identifying and bringing NHL players to the team while disposing of the garbage.

"But, but, but he didn't address our true need!!!" Lol, and he also isn't trading Dylan Larkin to address that need either.

Those "worthless scrubs" weren't even regular roster players so I'm not sure how you could say Vanek was an upgrade from them. And Nielsen is a Datsyuk replacement.

You seem to be confusing several issues here.

 

[Dotter]

why're people intentionally lying here by saying pulks and frk or vanek and nielsen

lets stick to the facts before anyone else decides to write songs for the spin doctors ok

helm, ott, miller and glenny are the ones fans are talking about not vanek and nielsen when speaking about aa, mantha, bert, frk or pulkinnen

AA and Mantha aren't 4th line PK players are they? AA is a north and south player that we would want on the 3rd line (where Vanek plays) and Mantha should be 2nd or 3rd line.

You DO NOT want Frk and Pulk playing Ott and Miller's type roles. The only player you *might* be able to make a case for is Helm, which is an argument that doesn't work as Helm is a vet with one of the fastest legs in the entire NHL while Frk and Pulks can't even skate to save their life.

So if Helm is the reason why you want to burn it down, then I think you are being nit-picky. He's hardly the clog in the system. I feel Ott and Miller are better role players for the 4th line and PK, and I believe Vanek and Nielsen are better role players for the scoring lines.

 

[Dotter]

Those "worthless scrubs" weren't even regular roster players so I'm not sure how you could say Vanek was an upgrade from them. And Nielsen is a Datsyuk replacement.

You seem to be confusing several issues here.

Exactly. Ownership obviously wants to win. Hence why they were never regular roster players. And I'm very happy to have Nielsen. I was very happy with Ken Holland's offseason, he did lots of good things.

 

[Winger98]

Now for those that are huge fans of tanking I understand not answering this. But show me the team in the NHL that isn't playing a fourth line and rolling with unproven kids and is successful? The only ones that sort of qualify are brutal teams.

See if they for some reason bought into a new team building concept (we could call it the EA Sports team building) that virtually nobody in the league is using people would be killing something else while we were getting beat.

The problem remains the defense. But in lieu of not getting the bites we would like from UFA's there and not having enough for a trade, with the mandate from ownership to make the playoffs he has done that up front. It is their best shot for their goals. Maybe not your goals for them, but pretty clearly the organizational goals.

Ott, Miller, Helm and Glendening aren't blocking most of what we are talking about. They are actually blocking Nosek. I do think Frk could have played some fourth line. But Mantha isn't a fourth line player, AA shouldn't be a fourth line player. Bertuzzi should be being developed to be more than a fourth line player.

Vanek and Nielsen were brought in really to replace/upgrade on Datsyuk and cover some of the slippage of Zetterberg. But overall they help slot guys into roles where they will hopefully be more successful.

The real key was always packaging one of our picks (1st or 2nd rounder) which people seem particularly unwilling to move along with Tatar or Nyquist for something on the back-end. Hopefully the prices get there and we pay that. Because this isn't a great draft year by most accounts, so being bad but not horrible isn't going to help us much. That is the real change we need and I don't care which one of Nyquist or Tatar is sent along with a high draft pick to make it happen.

Ah, the HiHD opening gambit.

Honestly, what the org wants really doesn't matter on the message board. If we disagree with it, we disagree with it. I want to see what the definition for "competitive" or "successful" is. Is it just making the playoffs? If it is, I think dropping Miller and Ott for Mantha and AA or Mantha and Bert (assuming AA is already on the team) isn't going to drastically change our chances at making the playoffs. It will change how we divvy up ice time from game to game, but our actual point totals at the end of the year? I don't think so.

And this is assuming the two kids are put on the same line and it is our "fourth" line by some metric. We could just as easily put them on separate lines in the bottom six and instead of having a third line and a "please god just play them to a standstill" line, maybe we could have two third lines.

And it has nothing to do with the PK. Larkin can PK. Nielsen can PK - he's ate pk and pp time in NYI for years. Gator. Helm. Sheahan. Glendening. We have plenty of guys who can PK. And if it means Helm never sees ice with the powerplay because we are worried about wearing him out or something, bonus. All the more reason to do it.

 

[njx9]

And this is assuming the two kids are put on the same line and it is our "fourth" line by some metric. We could just as easily put them on separate lines in the bottom six and instead of having a third line and a "please god just play them to a standstill" line, maybe we could have two third lines.

And it has nothing to do with the PK. Larkin can PK. Nielsen can PK - he's ate pk and pp time in NYI for years. Gator. Helm. Sheahan. Glendening. We have plenty of guys who can PK. And if it means Helm never sees ice with the powerplay because we are worried about wearing him out or something, bonus. All the more reason to do it.

I have a problem with AA/Mantha/Bert on our "4th line" because I don't believe Blash will/would change the way that line is used in games. And I think he'd have to, in this case. It's terrible development to send guys you might want on your top two lines in the future out there grinding away (look at Jurco's "development"). I don't believe Blash will/would change the way the PK works. I think a large part of what those guys would be asked to do is the kind of crap I don't mind paying Ott and Miller relatively little to do (block slap shots, grind, etc). That said, if I thought we had a coach who could or even might take advantage of the kind of four lines you're talking about, I'd be all for it.

 

[jkutswings]

Exactly. Ownership obviously wants to win. Hence why they were never regular roster players. And I'm very happy to have Nielsen. I was very happy with Ken Holland's offseason, he did lots of good things.

Nielsen in for Datsyuk, and a Vanek reclamation project, those I can live with. But are there really people that look at things like the Helm contract and adding Steve Ott, and consider those to be good things? Especially with the (ignored) need on defense? Chalk one up to "agree to disagree", I guess.

 

[Yemack]

Nielsen in for Datsyuk, and a Vanek reclamation project, those I can live with. But are there really people that look at things like the Helm contract and adding Steve Ott, and consider those to be good things? Chalk one up to "agree to disagree", I guess.

Didnt like Helm signing but I'm warming up to now. Hated Vanek signing but obviously I was wrong. Ott.. let's see. Not many players looked good last game. Doesn't mean we are going to lose 81 remaining game same fashion.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

AA and Mantha aren't 4th line PK players are they? AA is a north and south player that we would want on the 3rd line (where Vanek plays) and Mantha should be 2nd or 3rd line.

You DO NOT want Frk and Pulk playing Ott and Miller's type roles. The only player you *might* be able to make a case for is Helm, which is an argument that doesn't work as Helm is a vet with one of the fastest legs in the entire NHL while Frk and Pulks can't even skate to save their life.

So if Helm is the reason why you want to burn it down, then I think you are being nit-picky. He's hardly the clog in the system. I feel Ott and Miller are better role players for the 4th line and PK, and I believe Vanek and Nielsen are better role players for the scoring lines.

we will see soon enough wont we, we will know at the end of the year whether or not we improved on last years results or not