Wings fan spoke: It's Time for Holland to move on (but we'll still talk about him)

[Heaton]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2103567

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[Henkka]

Forgot one thing about Helm.

- One of league best penalties drawn/taken -ratios. And he has been this for many many seasons

 

[Heaton]

Forgot one thing about Helm.

- One of league best penalties drawn/taken -ratios. And he has been this for many many seasons

So is Dustin Brown, and he's not worth his contract either.

 

[One Blurred Eye]

So is Dustin Brown, and he's not worth his contract either.

Also usefulness of such a trait is significantly diminished when your PP can't capitalize on the opportunities provided.

 

[The Zermanator]

Forgot one thing about Helm.

- One of league best penalties drawn/taken -ratios. And he has been this for many many seasons

If I recall correctly, Athanasiou had a tremendous ratio as well. And he is exactly the guy who should have Helm's roster spot.

 

[Henkka]

If I recall correctly, Athanasiou had a tremendous ratio as well. And he is exactly the guy who should have Helm's roster spot.

Nope. Both will play. Sorry, but both will help the team to win.

Also usefulness of such a trait is significantly diminished when your PP can't capitalize on the opportunities provided.

I almost wrote same thing by myself, because I was 100% sure some negative nancy comes to write exactly same thing.

 

[Claypool]

I'm going to buy a Darren Helm jersey just to annoy some posters here.

 

[HIFE]

If I recall correctly, Athanasiou had a tremendous ratio as well. And he is exactly the guy who should have Helm's roster spot.

Athanasiou was sheltered like a child on the 3rd line and he gave up as many goals as the "spectacular" goals he created. Helm will shred AA to pieces in a 1 on1 competition. There is no way AA could man up to top 6 matchups the way Helm has been doing for YEARS.

I hope he can replace Helm's roster spot but ATM statements like that are as silly as claiming the Wings are close to the Tampa Bay Lightning. Blashill is right- AA is exciting but not near players like Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn, Palat, etc.

Our failure is that the badass roster that defeated Syracuse in 2013 in now getting bested. Gus, Tatar, Smith, Sheahan, DeKeyser, Pulkinnen, Jurco, are looking real small. Nyquist was imagined to be our next captain, he's going to win us the Stanley Cup? This summer I've watched and re-watched the Penguins-Tampa series **** that was some excellent hockey. The Lightning took them to 7 games remember. Nyquist is starting to look real small compared to Johnson, Killorn, Kucherov.

This forum enjoys blaming Helm and Abdelkader but these are two of the most reasonable contract the Wings carry. They could be unloaded for near value this morning on the spot. It's the breakdown of our older core- the entire core- including Howard, and the impotence of the younger guys holding us back.

Helm has his name engraved on the Cup and has proven his worth. I wish Helm was gone so he his name wouldn't be spoken and he was free of this place. May be before the TD. When are Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser and Sheahan going to lead this team is a better question.

The new contracts for Nyquist, DeKeyser, Sheahan, Glendening, Marchenko,...I mean this is the near future of the DRW, without Abdelkader, Helm, or Zetterberg to win their battles. I'm not entirely pessimistic but for how much this board likes to crucify Helm it's an indication of how delusional some of our fans are and that easily if Nyqust, Tatar, Marchenko, Dekeyser, and Glendening don't start taking over this team is going down the tubes. Helm, Abdelkader, Larkin, and Green can't do it all.

 

[jkutswings]

Nope. Both will play. Sorry, but both will help the team to win.



I almost wrote same thing by myself, because I was 100% sure some negative nancy comes to write exactly same thing.

Saying the power play struggled - when it did, in fact struggle - is not being a "negative Nancy". It's calling a spade a spade.

There are many things Darren Helm does well. But on a team that desperately needs more scoring and puck moving defensemen, it's not a crime to say that he isn't the first type of player Detroit should be rushing to bring back long-term.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I want a #43 jersey with "DANGER ZONE" for the name.

Also, it's not Helm's fault his teammates suck at power plays.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Saying the power play struggled - when it did, in fact struggle - is not being a "negative Nancy". It's calling a spade a spade.

But saying "This positive thing that Helm does is worthless, because our PP (that he's not on, because that's not his role) sucks." is.

Everything that is an objective positive about Helm is poopooed away and all of his faults are laser focused on.

I hate the contract too, but it's just patently incorrect to act like Darren Helm isn't a good hockey player that does things to help the team win. In all actuality, his deal, while bad is probably about a million per year too much and two years too long. Most of why it's so bad is that they have several worse contracts and since it's the most recent one and was signed with knowledge of these other bad deals.

 

[Winger98]

But saying "This positive thing that Helm does is worthless, because our PP (that he's not on, because that's not his role) sucks." is.

Everything that is an objective positive about Helm is poopooed away and all of his faults are laser focused on.

I hate the contract too, but it's just patently incorrect to act like Darren Helm isn't a good hockey player that does things to help the team win. In all actuality, his deal, while bad is probably about a million per year too much and two years too long. Most of why it's so bad is that they have several worse contracts and since it's the most recent one and was signed with knowledge of these other bad deals.

I'd add that the deal is unnecessary with where we are as a team. We aren't a legit cup contender that Helm puts over the top, and he's not good enough to push us to that status. We're a bubble team with or without him, but could benefit more long term from plugging a prospect in there. Or, if we have to go the vet route, getting another Vanek looking for a one year deal.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

But saying "This positive thing that Helm does is worthless, because our PP (that he's not on, because that's not his role) sucks." is.

Everything that is an objective positive about Helm is poopooed away and all of his faults are laser focused on.

I hate the contract too, but it's just patently incorrect to act like Darren Helm isn't a good hockey player that does things to help the team win. In all actuality, his deal, while bad is probably about a million per year too much and two years too long. Most of why it's so bad is that they have several worse contracts and since it's the most recent one and was signed with knowledge of these other bad deals.

I would argue that it's not just the other bad deals. This Helm contract is the biggest head-scratcher. It's one of the rare times I've seen the Wings end up on "worst signing" lists.

Abby's contract seemed rather optimistic. Helm's is straight up overpayment.

He's a good player who definitely helps the team win but he is not a guy you sign for almost $4 mill a year for 5 years. Even if you want to go with that term because he's a team guy, you should be able to do a lot better on his cap hit.

 

[jkutswings]

Also usefulness of such a trait is significantly diminished when your PP can't capitalize on the opportunities provided.

This was the original quote. The above statement never said that Helm's ability to draw penalties was worthless. It spoke to the fact that drawing penalties is less beneficial when a team as a whole is rather toothless with the man advantage.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

janmarks first year in the NHL, 4 pts less then darren helms best year ever
jarnkroks 2nd year in the nhl, 3 pts less then darrens helms best year ever

now did we throw two 20million dollar players into the garbage or is helm simply not worth 20 million dollars?

guys who's career year is 33 pts are simply never worth 5 years and 20 million in a hard cap league because they can be EASILY replaced by guys we seemingly throw into the garbage

 

[ComradeChris]

.

Athanasiou was sheltered like a child on the 3rd line and he gave up as many goals as the "spectacular" goals he created. Helm will shred AA to pieces in a 1 on1 competition. There is no way AA could man up to top 6 matchups the way Helm has been doing for YEARS.

I hope he can replace Helm's roster spot but ATM statements like that are as silly as claiming the Wings are close to the Tampa Bay Lightning. Blashill is right- AA is exciting but not near players like Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn, Palat, etc.

Our failure is that the badass roster that defeated Syracuse in 2013 in now getting bested. Gus, Tatar, Smith, Sheahan, DeKeyser, Pulkinnen, Jurco, are looking real small. Nyquist was imagined to be our next captain, he's going to win us the Stanley Cup? This summer I've watched and re-watched the Penguins-Tampa series **** that was some excellent hockey. The Lightning took them to 7 games remember. Nyquist is starting to look real small compared to Johnson, Killorn, Kucherov.

This forum enjoys blaming Helm and Abdelkader but these are two of the most reasonable contract the Wings carry. They could be unloaded for near value this morning on the spot. It's the breakdown of our older core- the entire core- including Howard, and the impotence of the younger guys holding us back.

Helm has his name engraved on the Cup and has proven his worth. I wish Helm was gone so he his name wouldn't be spoken and he was free of this place. May be before the TD. When are Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser and Sheahan going to lead this team is a better question.

The new contracts for Nyquist, DeKeyser, Sheahan, Glendening, Marchenko,...I mean this is the near future of the DRW, without Abdelkader, Helm, or Zetterberg to win their battles. I'm not entirely pessimistic but for how much this board likes to crucify Helm it's an indication of how delusional some of our fans are and that easily if Nyqust, Tatar, Marchenko, Dekeyser, and Glendening don't start taking over this team is going down the tubes. Helm, Abdelkader, Larkin, and Green can't do it all.

Helm is worse defensively than Athanasiou ainec. Helm lost his man and was defensively responsible for multiple goals in multiple games against the Lightning this past playoffs. Goals that lost us the games and the series. Helm works hard, but he doesn't work smart. He'll continue to be overvalued for his speed and penalty killing because of the 08 playoffs. He's not as fast now and he's definitely a worse PKer. Since 08 his stone hands, poor defensive iq, poor playmaking abilities, and poor shooting have somehow gone under the radar. He was great trade bait this past season. He's awful asset management by holland now on an overpaid salary that will be impossible to move. Helm is a dime a dozen player in the league that you shouldn't give more than 2.5M for.

Poor previous contracts like Ericsson and Franzen set the stage to overpay to keep players. This Helm one will continue the trend. Hopefully Holland wakes up and is able to trade him this year at some point. If he doesn't then he'll probably be as unmovable as Ericsson the following year.

 

[Shaman464]

Helm is worse defensively than Athanasiou ainec. Helm lost his man and was defensively responsible for multiple goals in multiple games against the Lightning this past playoffs. Goals that lost us the games and the series. Helm works hard, but he doesn't work smart. He'll continue to be overvalued for his speed and penalty killing because of the 08 playoffs. He's not as fast now and he's definitely a worse PKer. Since 08 his stone hands, poor defensive iq, poor playmaking abilities, and poor shooting have somehow gone under the radar. He was great trade bait this past season. He's awful asset management by holland now on an overpaid salary that will be impossible to move. Helm is a dime a dozen player in the league that you shouldn't give more than 2.5M for.

Poor previous contracts like Ericsson and Franzen set the stage to overpay to keep players. This Helm one will continue the trend. Hopefully Holland wakes up and is able to trade him this year at some point. If he doesn't then he'll probably be as unmovable as Ericsson the following year.

I know AA will make Gretzky look like Brad May when it comes to scoring and that his defense will make Lidstrom look like Lebda, but lets not exaggerate too much.

Seriously, I know AA had some flashes offensively (and we can argue whether those will last after other teams plan for him), but he is in no way better than Helm defensively.

 

[jolly roger]

Athanasiou was sheltered like a child on the 3rd line and he gave up as many goals as the "spectacular" goals he created. Helm will shred AA to pieces in a 1 on1 competition. There is no way AA could man up to top 6 matchups the way Helm has been doing for YEARS.

I hope he can replace Helm's roster spot but ATM statements like that are as silly as claiming the Wings are close to the Tampa Bay Lightning. Blashill is right- AA is exciting but not near players like Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn, Palat, etc.

Our failure is that the badass roster that defeated Syracuse in 2013 in now getting bested. Gus, Tatar, Smith, Sheahan, DeKeyser, Pulkinnen, Jurco, are looking real small. Nyquist was imagined to be our next captain, he's going to win us the Stanley Cup? This summer I've watched and re-watched the Penguins-Tampa series **** that was some excellent hockey. The Lightning took them to 7 games remember. Nyquist is starting to look real small compared to Johnson, Killorn, Kucherov.

This forum enjoys blaming Helm and Abdelkader but these are two of the most reasonable contract the Wings carry. They could be unloaded for near value this morning on the spot. It's the breakdown of our older core- the entire core- including Howard, and the impotence of the younger guys holding us back.

Helm has his name engraved on the Cup and has proven his worth. I wish Helm was gone so he his name wouldn't be spoken and he was free of this place. May be before the TD. When are Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser and Sheahan going to lead this team is a better question.

The new contracts for Nyquist, DeKeyser, Sheahan, Glendening, Marchenko,...I mean this is the near future of the DRW, without Abdelkader, Helm, or Zetterberg to win their battles. I'm not entirely pessimistic but for how much this board likes to crucify Helm it's an indication of how delusional some of our fans are and that easily if Nyqust, Tatar, Marchenko, Dekeyser, and Glendening don't start taking over this team is going down the tubes. Helm, Abdelkader, Larkin, and Green can't do it all.

"Sheltered like a child on the third line...".

You've got to be joking. When was that?

Who did the sheltering? And his plus/minus statistics belie your assertion ( I'm sure you'll have a big time answer telling me plus/minus means nothing and we should blame AA for goals scored while he was on the bench).

Personally I'd like to see AA and Helm on the same line with Larkin. Then you wouldn't have to post silly stuff about one guy "shredding" the other.

 

[Fear]

Helm is worse defensively than Athanasiou ainec. Helm lost his man and was defensively responsible for multiple goals in multiple games against the Lightning this past playoffs. Goals that lost us the games and the series. Helm works hard, but he doesn't work smart. He'll continue to be overvalued for his speed and penalty killing because of the 08 playoffs. He's not as fast now and he's definitely a worse PKer. Since 08 his stone hands, poor defensive iq, poor playmaking abilities, and poor shooting have somehow gone under the radar. He was great trade bait this past season. He's awful asset management by holland now on an overpaid salary that will be impossible to move. Helm is a dime a dozen player in the league that you shouldn't give more than 2.5M for.

Poor previous contracts like Ericsson and Franzen set the stage to overpay to keep players. This Helm one will continue the trend. Hopefully Holland wakes up and is able to trade him this year at some point. If he doesn't then he'll probably be as unmovable as Ericsson the following year.

This is flat-out ridiculous. The eye-test, advanced stats AND Blashill's usage all say that Athanasiou is the worst defensive forward on the team. He bleeds shots against more than any other forward on the roster, despite the fact that he has very favourable zone starts and low-quality competition. He's always been an all-offense, no defense player going back to his Barrie Colts days.

 

[HIFE]

I'd add that the deal is unnecessary with where we are as a team. We aren't a legit cup contender that Helm puts over the top, and he's not good enough to push us to that status. We're a bubble team with or without him, but could benefit more long term from plugging a prospect in there. Or, if we have to go the vet route, getting another Vanek looking for a one year deal.

Admittedly I'm far too emotionally attached to this single player. I can appreciate the continual logic you've used to explain a different approach. If we were to miss the PO's could Helm be traded off?

 

[The Zermanator]

Athanasiou was sheltered like a child on the 3rd line and he gave up as many goals as the "spectacular" goals he created. Helm will shred AA to pieces in a 1 on1 competition. There is no way AA could man up to top 6 matchups the way Helm has been doing for YEARS.

I hope he can replace Helm's roster spot but ATM statements like that are as silly as claiming the Wings are close to the Tampa Bay Lightning. Blashill is right- AA is exciting but not near players like Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn, Palat, etc.

Our failure is that the badass roster that defeated Syracuse in 2013 in now getting bested. Gus, Tatar, Smith, Sheahan, DeKeyser, Pulkinnen, Jurco, are looking real small. Nyquist was imagined to be our next captain, he's going to win us the Stanley Cup? This summer I've watched and re-watched the Penguins-Tampa series **** that was some excellent hockey. The Lightning took them to 7 games remember. Nyquist is starting to look real small compared to Johnson, Killorn, Kucherov.

This forum enjoys blaming Helm and Abdelkader but these are two of the most reasonable contract the Wings carry. They could be unloaded for near value this morning on the spot. It's the breakdown of our older core- the entire core- including Howard, and the impotence of the younger guys holding us back.

Helm has his name engraved on the Cup and has proven his worth. I wish Helm was gone so he his name wouldn't be spoken and he was free of this place. May be before the TD. When are Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser and Sheahan going to lead this team is a better question.

The new contracts for Nyquist, DeKeyser, Sheahan, Glendening, Marchenko,...I mean this is the near future of the DRW, without Abdelkader, Helm, or Zetterberg to win their battles. I'm not entirely pessimistic but for how much this board likes to crucify Helm it's an indication of how delusional some of our fans are and that easily if Nyqust, Tatar, Marchenko, Dekeyser, and Glendening don't start taking over this team is going down the tubes. Helm, Abdelkader, Larkin, and Green can't do it all.

Yeah, I remember hearing that about Howard and Ericsson too.

Go look at those Athanasiou NHL compilations that were posted. Scrubs do not do that, average prospects do not do that. The degree to which he was sheltered is immaterial, most players are not capable of accomplishing what he did in his first NHL stint. Helm has never been capable of that. Athanasiou should have Helm's spot, he is far better offensively already and you shouldn't be spending almost 4M for 5 years on bottom 6 players when far more promising prospects are being held back.

How many times have we seen this from Helm?



And Athanasiou?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, I remember hearing that about Howard and Ericsson too.

Go look at those Athanasiou NHL compilations that were posted. Scrubs do not do that, average prospects do not do that. The degree to which he was sheltered is immaterial, most players are not capable of accomplishing what he did in his first NHL stint. Helm has never been capable of that. Athanasiou should have Helm's spot, he is far better offensively already and you shouldn't be spending almost 4M for 5 years on bottom 6 players when far more promising prospects are being held back.

How many times have we seen this from Helm?



And Athanasiou?

Or we know that they're not making decisions about the couple flashy plays a guy makes. If flashy plays were all that made you a good player, Alex Kovalev would be the greatest ever.

Helm didn't deserve the contract that he got. But Helm can do things that Athanasiou can't. Could they have not signed Helm and put Athanasiou in his role. They'd also be a worse team for it.

 

[Henkka]

Saying the power play struggled - when it did, in fact struggle - is not being a "negative Nancy". It's calling a spade a spade.

There are many things Darren Helm does well. But on a team that desperately needs more scoring and puck moving defensemen, it's not a crime to say that he isn't the first type of player Detroit should be rushing to bring back long-term.

It's the basic counter-argument in here for everything positive.

If power-play struggled at last season, it doesn't mean anything how it will work at next season. It worked well a season before. Now there's new assistant coaches again, and new net-front precense. You don't know how it will work.

Even a bad-working power-play is a better chance to score than being even-strength. So Helm does help this team by drawing penalties significantly more than he takes. Over and out. Don't be smart-ass, or do I have to find some mathematical proof for you?

 

[HIFE]

AA should have Glendening, Miller, or Ott's position. Can we agree to ridicule and debase these 3 instead of Helm?

 

[Tatar]

2018 isn't too far away. It's just a matter of how much more bad contracts can he take up before he leaves