Confirmed with Link: Wings Buy Out Final 3 Years of Weiss' Contract

[Claypool]

I hope this as well. But if I have understood anything that Holland has said, only one of Marchenko/Ouellet is going to be with Wings. I would like to see them both. That's one of the reasons I'm not happy with the Smith signing.

Kronwall - Ericsson
DeKeyser - Smith
Quincey - Marchenko/Ouellet

There is no room for both of them

Nah, both will be competing with each other for playing time. Should do them both good. If one starts to slip the other gets an opportunity. Plus, you know there's going to be injuries. I still think Kindl will be waived/traded before the season starts.

 

[Tobeflop]

I do feel bad for Weiss, but honestly this was the right thing to do. I find it hard to believe he would've improved his game even under Blash, and now the Top 12 logjam eases a little. Nonetheless, good luck and thanks.

 

[abbbaron]

I'm not referring to this article, I'm referring to an article I read a while back in which that is exactly what was implied. If I remember the article correctly (and I will admit it's been a while so I may not be 100% accurate), it went something like Babcock pushed hard for Weiss to replace Fil, prompting Holland to sign him, someone in the organization (perhaps Devallano, as has been suggested) said "you know, I don't think Weiss is the player/person you think he is" and that was confirmed very early on. So at the very least, it was evidence prior to now that Babcock vouched for Weiss in some way. So if he vouched for Weiss, why is Holland getting all the blame here? Midway through next season all we're going to see is that Holland, and Holland alone, messed up by signing Weiss, even when there's evidence suggesting otherwise.

But you make an excellent point, we don't know what happened behind the scenes. Just like we didn't know what happened when Holland signed Samuelsson after Babcock was begging for a right shot, or when they signed Tootoo after Babcock said we need more grit. But that doesn't matter because Holland is automatically the bad guy. Be fair in your criticisms. If you have no clue what happened, than don't just assume Holland is the only one at fault. I'll say it again, GMs do not operate unilaterally.

I've never doubted the idea that Babcock ok'ed the Weiss signing, particularly when it became clear the Filppula likely wasn't going to be re-signed. But this narrative about Holland doing Babcock's bidding, that, as one commenter here claiming insider information put it, "Babcock was alone in pushing for Weiss", I find it interesting considering that it's really only in the last little while that it has really had a life of its own. Contrast that with Babcock-Cleary, where it was made known from the get-go that Babcock was lobbying to have Cleary return.

Like I wrote yesterday, I haven't been able to find anything around that time (or any time other than these off-hand references emerging in the last couple weeks) that supports the idea of "Weiss was Babcock's guy". Given that the Wings were linked to Weiss well before Filppula was moving towards the exit, has Babcock ever been known to be so specific in pursing a player outside the organization? And how to reconcile all this with Babcock's qualifying statements back in early Sept '13 about how they "told [Weiss] if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach..."? << To me, that sounds very much like Babcock talking, not so much Holland.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

This is dumb. I woulda gave him this year under a new coach then bought him out next year if it didn't work out.

It's not like we're gonna use the cap space we save this year and the cap hit would be less years/money if we did this next year.

 

[Frk It]

I've never doubted the idea that Babcock ok'ed the Weiss signing, particularly when it became clear the Filppula likely wasn't going to be re-signed. But this narrative about Holland doing Babcock's bidding, that, as one commenter here claiming insider information put it, "Babcock was alone in pushing for Weiss", I find it interesting considering that it's really only in the last little while that it has really had a life of its own. Contrast that with Babcock-Cleary, where it was made known from the get-go that Babcock was lobbying to have Cleary return.

Like I wrote yesterday, I haven't been able to find anything around that time (or any time other than these off-hand references emerging in the last couple weeks) that supports the idea of "Weiss was Babcock's guy". Given that the Wings were linked to Weiss well before Filppula was moving towards the exit, has Babcock ever been known to be so specific in pursing a player outside the organization? And how to reconcile all this with Babcock's qualifying statements back in early Sept '13 about how they "told [Weiss] if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach..."? << To me, that sounds very much like Babcock talking, not so much Holland.

sepster's take seems at least plausible.

As one Wings' official bluntly put it after Babcock bolted for a fat contract to coach the Toronto Maple Leafs: "Mike Babcock is gone, and we're still stuck with Weiss and Cleary."

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...-cleary?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[sepster]

http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/st...y-past-buy-out-weiss-and-re-sign-smith-063015

"Babcock is gone and we're still stuck with Weiss and Cleary."

This article says exactly what I was told 2 years ago.

 

[BogsDiamond]

I'm actually very excited about this buyout. I didn't like the signing in the first place (I'm not tooting my own horn, I actually wanted Vinny Lecavailer instead - ).

This is the first year I've been excited about NOT signing anyone.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what our young kids can do. I'm even holding out hope that Larkin gets a late call-up and shines.

 

[Actual Thought*]

sepster's take seems at least plausible.



http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...-cleary?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

No it isn't plausible. Pro sports teams have a staff of pro scouts. Decisions are made by committee based on the reports of those scouts.

 

[jkutswings]

No it isn't plausible. Pro sports teams have a staff of pro scouts. Decisions are made by committee based on the reports of those scouts.

Because all pro sports teams work exactly alike, and there are never any exceptions of a stubborn coach insisting on anything?

We're talking about a player that already had played a stint with the team, and a coach that was well known for having players that were either "his guys" (ie Cleary) or "not his guys" (ie Smith).

None of us really know what happened, but the explanation suggested is certainly POSSIBLE. My only surprise from all the recent "news"/speculation is that Babs wanted Weiss here, considering how quickly he got in (and stayed in) the doghouse.

 

[Vladdy84]

http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/st...y-past-buy-out-weiss-and-re-sign-smith-063015

"Babcock is gone and we're still stuck with Weiss and Cleary."

This article says exactly what I was told 2 years ago.

LOL. Hopefully Kenny does the right thing and gets Daniel a ticket to Toronto.

Babcock held this team back.

As I read this article.. Welcome back Daniel. Whatever. He's not gonna see the ice.

 

[obey86]

I hope the Weiss and Cleary stuff at least puts to rest the thought that Babcock's input wasn't at the very least very important to shaping the roster over the last few seasons. Kenny and Babs have always said they had a good relationship and Babs has said numerous times he had a lot of input when it came to personnel choices.

Too many times over the last 3 years i've seen people on here say "I'm sure Babcock can't wait to leave town, Kenny never gets him anything he wants."

 

[Winger98]

No it isn't plausible. Pro sports teams have a staff of pro scouts. Decisions are made by committee based on the reports of those scouts.

I doubt all voices are equal in those meetings, and the decision isn't made by the committee, it's made by Holland who is informed by the advice he gets. Whoever's opinion he trusts more is going to win the day, and I don't think it's implausible that he favored Babcock's opinion over pretty much everybody's.

 

[HockeyinHD]

And your version of this?

UFA signings are usually net neutral short term tools.

Especially when they are bottom 6 (or 3) forwards.

UFA signings also flame out around half of the time, slightly more often at the higher-tier dman levels.

Hossa was fine, Alfredsson was fine, White was fine, Brunner was fine, Dekeyser was fine, Miller was fine, Glendening was fine. Weiss stunk, Cleary stunk, Sammy stunk, Colaiacovo stunk, Tootoo stunk.

Ya win some ya lose some.

Holland doesn't make any effective trades or signings at the NHL level in six years. In fact, the majority range from terrible to just lateral.

Well, we know that statement isn't actually true, though. In addition to the 6 guys up there (excluding Hossa) signed within that interim Holland also traded for Quincey, which got him a decent 4-5 dman for a few years to paper over the absence of Stuart and the failure Kindl and Smith (or the prospects further down) to win the job.

Also, yeah, UFA signings are generally lateral acquisitions. In a capped league all the value signings happen with prospects coming up and until their full UFA status hits. Pretty much everyone else is already priced at their market value so the only way for them to go is, typically, down.

 

[Bench]

Is Quincey really a point of praise? A guy who forgot how to produce any offense so he could hold down 2nd units duties on one of the worst playoff defenses. If that's your impact trade, the feather in your cap, your cap is ugly.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Wait suddenly it was Babcock who promised Cleary that he would match any contract offered? Right...

 

[abbbaron]

http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/st...y-past-buy-out-weiss-and-re-sign-smith-063015

"Babcock is gone and we're still stuck with Weiss and Cleary."

This article says exactly what I was told 2 years ago.

Two years ago, against their better judgment but at Babcock's insistence, the Wings signed Weiss to a five-year, $24.5 million free-agent deal, hoping he would fill their needs as a second-line center in the absence of Valtteri Filppula,

But the inconvenient fact is that the Wings were linked to Weiss well before there was an absence of Flip. Could you please shed some light on that?

sepster's take seems at least plausible.

So Babcock must've been doggedly after this guy in order to overrule "their better judgement", and for a longer time than was been suggested in that fox sports article. He must've had the hots specifically for Stephen Weiss in a way that he never had for any other player outside the organization (...because Weiss was such a Babcock-type player???). And apparently Babs found himself in such a tizzy of over-joyment in the wake of the signing that when the euphoria wore off he reverted into some kind of self-denial/hedging routine where he spoke publicly about Weiss initially with guarded optimism and later with this rather conflicted, tough-love spiel before the guy even stepped on to the ice for the team:

More than a week before training camp opened

“We explained the situation to him very clearly,'' Babcock said Tuesday. “Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here.''

Was all that just Babcock song-and-dance? Babcock wanted Weiss in the worst way but evidently also wanted to take absolutely no ownership of the guy (in fact it seemed he wanted others to do that for him), and all this even before Weiss actually started practicing with the team. And now that Babcock is gone, the gag order has been lifted and the press can openly discuss the true version of events...
Wow, Babcock must've been ruling this town with an iron fist.

 

[HockeyinHD]

As others have said, there's no reason to make this move (and, in fact, good reason not to) if we're not adding a contract or two this offseason.

Well, he was gone next year anyway (allegedly), so if he's gone anyway why have a new coach have to try and deal with a lame duck forward in his first NHL coaching year, especially when the lame duck forward isn't likely to be a major contributor anyway?

Send him off, it provides a little extra flexibility a year early if something comes up, and it's not like a Jurco/Pulkinnen for Weiss transition is going to be all that rocky given what Weiss had fallen to.

 

[steafo]

Is Quincey really a point of praise? A guy who forgot how to produce any offense so he could hold down 2nd units duties on one of the worst playoff defenses. If that's your impact trade, the feather in your cap, your cap is ugly.

He certainly isn't what we were hoping for when Holland traded for him. I would've liked to see him produce but I was fine with how he played last year. He was defensively sound and didn't turn the puck over like he did years prior. I still hate Q's caphit and would have rather they went with XO at that point, but I was pleasantly surprised last season at how well Q played defensively.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Is Quincey really a point of praise? A guy who forgot how to produce any offense so he could hold down 2nd units duties on one of the worst playoff defenses. If that's your impact trade, the feather in your cap, your cap is ugly.

Enh, it's a run of the mill FA signing, mostly. Quick fix tape over the hole in your drywall. That's what FA signings tend to be, short term little blips... unless you are shooting for an impact long-term UFA signing, then you're talking about cannonball sized holes in the bottom of your boat a la Wiz or Ehrhoff or Richards more than half the time.

Specific to Quincey:

11, 18, 11, 13, 18. Those are Quincey's ES point totals in his full (non-injured non lockout) seasons. It's not that he forgot to produce points, it's just that he only did much point producing soaking up tons of PP time in LA and Colorado. When that went away... poof! So did the elevated point totals.

 

[obey86]

Well, he was gone next year anyway (allegedly), so if he's gone anyway why have a new coach have to try and deal with a lame duck forward in his first NHL coaching year, especially when the lame duck forward isn't likely to be a major contributor anyway?

Send him off, it provides a little extra flexibility a year early if something comes up, and it's not like a Jurco/Pulkinnen for Weiss transition is going to be all that rocky given what Weiss had fallen to.

Because if you bought him out next season instead you would only have his buyout hit on the books for 4 seasons instead of 6.

If the Wings don't actually use the freed up money this offseason then buying out Weiss this year was a huge mistake.

 

[Flowah]

Was all that just Babcock song-and-dance? Babcock wanted Weiss in the worst way but evidently also wanted to take absolutely no ownership of the guy (in fact it seemed he wanted others to do that for him), and all this even before Weiss actually started practicing with the team. And now that Babcock is gone, the gag order has been lifted and the press can openly discuss the true version of events...
Wow, Babcock must've been ruling this town with an iron fist.

It is a little hard to make sense of, right?

We have two differing accounts. In one, Holland made a promise to Cleary. In another, it was Babcock who urged Holland to bring him back. In one, Babcock is warning Weiss that he'll hate it in Detroit if he isn't 100% focused. In the other, Babcock is the one pushing for Weiss.

They aren't necessarily contradictory accounts, but they certainly paint different pictures. If it's true that Babs was the one pushing for this, then I say good riddance. Those two signings really hindered the team financially and in terms of roster spots. For 2 damn years.

On the other hand, where is Holland's spine? He knows he's the GM, not Babs, right? He doesn't have to sign anyone just because Babs asks him to. If Holland really had such reservations about Cleary, then don't freaking sign him. And definitely don't sign him *again* after a terrible season 2 years ago. Jeez.

 

[sepster]

But the inconvenient fact is that the Wings were linked to Weiss well before there was an absence of Flip. Could you please shed some light on that?

Babcock is part of the organizational meetings. He certainly has an idea of what players he wants well before July 1st. The Wings wen't right out and signed Weiss before Flip signed with TB. Why? Because that was the player they had already decided to pursue. There is nothing inconvenient about that point.

So Babcock must've been doggedly after this guy in order to overrule "their better judgement", and for a longer time than was been suggested in that fox sports article. He must've had the hots specifically for Stephen Weiss in a way that he never had for any other player outside the organization (...because Weiss was such a Babcock-type player???). And apparently Babs found himself in such a tizzy of over-joyment in the wake of the signing that when the euphoria wore off he reverted into some kind of self-denial/hedging routine where he spoke publicly about Weiss initially with guarded optimism and later with this rather conflicted, tough-love spiel before the guy even stepped on to the ice for the team:

More than a week before training camp opened


Was all that just Babcock song-and-dance? Babcock wanted Weiss in the worst way but evidently also wanted to take absolutely no ownership of the guy (in fact it seemed he wanted others to do that for him), and all this even before Weiss actually started practicing with the team. And now that Babcock is gone, the gag order has been lifted and the press can openly discuss the true version of events...
Wow, Babcock must've been ruling this town with an iron fist.

That's Babcock being told that Weiss is not the player he wants, doesn't have the work ethic or the mentality to fit with the organization and him calling up Weiss and basically saying, "I'm told you're not my guy, are you willing to do what I need you to do." Again that doesn't contradict this narrative at all. Once Weiss got here and basically proved his detractors correct, Babcock threw him under the bus by benching him.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Because if you bought him out next season instead you would only have his buyout hit on the books for 4 seasons instead of 6.

But you'd have to pay his full 4.9 this year against the cap in addition to whatever the payouts were in those 4 years of dead cap and it would clear a roster spot at forward, allegedly for a cheap prospect replacement there.

I don't remember where all the good calcs are, but what happened means Weiss will count against the cap for 9.8 mil spread out over 2015-2021. If they waited a year he'd count for 11.4 mil spread out over 2015-2021.

Am I messing that up?

If the Wings don't actually use the freed up money this offseason then buying out Weiss this year was a huge mistake.

Huge? I think that's a little extreme. We're really talking about 1.6ish mil in years 5 and 6, yes? Assuming the cap continues to rise, that's pretty much a league minimum contract and I think it's actually less in terms of total cap dollars to buy him out now.

 

[Retire91]

Because if you bought him out next season instead you would only have his buyout hit on the books for 4 seasons instead of 6.

If the Wings don't actually use the freed up money this offseason then buying out Weiss this year was a huge mistake.

I am certain this will be a huge waste. 6 seasons of cap space down the drain for no good reason. Weiss should have been given a shot under Blashill. This was a dumb move.

 

[Vladdy84]

Wait suddenly it was Babcock who promised Cleary that he would match any contract offered? Right...

"There's no bigger fan of Dan Cleary than Mike Babcock"

-Mike Babcock