GDT: Wings @ Avs | Mantha looks to be back in | Howard starts

[Mijatovic]

Sheahan was scratched.

When? I dont remember him ever being scratched.

 

[TheMule93]

its gonna be hard to get a loss tomorrow

When? I dont remember him ever being scratched.

first result when googling "riley sheahan scratched" http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/01/12/detroit-red-wings-riley-sheahan/96516202/

 

[DanZ]

Tell that to the guy who's tied Tatar in points in 17 fewer games. It seems to me that he was pretty successful at it. Most nights, he was the only one creating anything at all. If that's failure, I'll take more of it.

Mantha clearly has talent. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable to work as hard as everyone else every single night. At this point, goals and assists don't matter anymore. The rest of the season​ should be used in preparation of next year.

 

[DanZ]

And that alludes to what I'm trying to get at.

If Mantha is loafing, sit him a game. No issue with that.

But guys like Tatar and Nyquist have had long stretches of being a waste of a roster spot, and not just due to execution. So, if you at least OCCASIONALLY sit those guys as well, then you're sending a message to EVERYBODY, and nobody has an excuse to skirt the rules.

It might even unite the players more deeply, in their disdain towards (what they deem to be too stringent) accountability.

But it can get argued that Nyquist and Tatar are wastes of a roster spot for long stretches not because they're dogging it but because they simply aren't good enough to put points up on a consistent on a terrible team that lacks elite talent. Mantha has the potential to be an elite player, so he can play lazy and still pick up a point or two but that doesn't mean we shouldn't expect more out of him.

 

[Mijatovic]

first result when googling "riley sheahan scratched" http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/01/12/detroit-red-wings-riley-sheahan/96516202/

Okay so hes been scratched 2 games all season. Not bad given his stats standing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

AA was scratched for effort and responded positively to it. Abby spent time on the 4th line when Vanek was here, as did Helm. Tats and Nyquist have both been demoted to the third line at times. Larkin has been a staple on the third line due to poor play.

Sheahan was scratched and effort isn't the problem with him, he's been demoted to the fourth a lot recently and was only bumped up for Manta due to faceoff relief with 2 kids next to him. At the risk of being called a Riley Sheahan apologist I feel bad for the guy this season luck-wise.

Excellent post and yes Mike Green crushing him in practice is another message in my opinion. Probably not just to Mantha either, though he is a good one to make it with.

If it was completely out of line there is usually more to it. I.E. a teammate or coach steps in and asks Green what the ****? Even the way this was reported was a here is a lesson, prepare when we get on the ice, pay the price to go to this area. Take this a little more seriously and it likely serves as a lesson to several of the guys on the team. You should care more about this, do it right in practice so you do it right in the game...

The reason you push a Mantha or AA like this is they aren't Drew Miller, they are players that can have big impacts. Larkin, AA and Mantha all deserved to sit after the Boston debacle. I didn't agree with it stretching the additional amount and said as much. However, his teammate getting him in practice is a good thing, you have been scratched for two straight games and you're going through practice with the ability to get lit up?

I think all of this is good for Mantha in the long run. He has responded big time to some of the other instances where he was told something or taught something with tough love. I don't think that is the only type of message he should be getting, but maybe it is sort of his personality and they understand it over the years of having him in the system.

Guys Scotty Bowman wanted to and attempted with Devellano to move Yzerman to build around Primeau & Fedorov because they didn't like Yzerman's two-way game or compete level in big moments.... This message has been given in harsher ways then sitting in the pressbox for a game too long. Thank God Ilitch walked back that atrocious misstep in terms of Yzerman right before it happened.

 

[jkutswings]

But it can get argued that Nyquist and Tatar are wastes of a roster spot for long stretches not because they're dogging it but because they simply aren't good enough to put points up on a consistent on a terrible team that lacks elite talent. Mantha has the potential to be an elite player, so he can play lazy and still pick up a point or two but that doesn't mean we shouldn't expect more out of him.

I think that's ultimately where we agree to disagree. I think there have been some games where they just haven't been any good, and some games where they've mailed it in.

Honestly, I'd be shocked if we didn't start to see several players mailing it in during these last 10-15 games.

 

[BinCookin]

I think that's ultimately where we agree to disagree. I think there have been some games where they just haven't been any good, and some games where they've mailed it in.

Honestly, I'd be shocked if we didn't start to see several players mailing it in during these last 10-15 games.

Mantha and AA these are the guys you want to send messages to. These are the guys learning to be pros.

Sending a "message" to Sheahan does what?
Notthing. He's a Pro now. Full time. If he sucks... hes going to lose his job, and maybe be out of the NHL in a few years. He has nothing left to learn. Same with Nyquist and Tatar.

Now if our team was competing, and Sheahan was taking the spot of someone theoretically better, ya bench him.

But at this point, there is no one really in the AHL i want up here, except Svechnikov.

I think at this point, players right now are playing for Holland to NOT expose them in the draft upcoming. And I think Sheahan exposed is a given at this point.

And I think Helm OR Abdelkader (one of them) will be exposed.

 

[ricky0034]

Mantha and AA these are the guys you want to send messages to. These are the guys learning to be pros.

Sending a "message" to Sheahan does what?
Notthing. He's a Pro now. Full time. If he sucks... hes going to lose his job, and maybe be out of the NHL in a few years. He has nothing left to learn. Same with Nyquist and Tatar.

Now if our team was competing, and Sheahan was taking the spot of someone theoretically better, ya bench him.

But at this point, there is no one really in the AHL i want up here, except Svechnikov.

I think at this point, players right now are playing for Holland to NOT expose them in the draft upcoming. And I think Sheahan exposed is a given at this point.

And I think Helm OR Abdelkader (one of them) will be exposed.

if sending a message to a guy that has been in the league for a few years and now at 25 is suddenly having the worst season of his career thus far does nothing then that's on Sheahan,full stop

 

[RedWingsfan55]

I just find it funny that these people feel they need to teach someone who has consistently one of our best forwards all season.


There's other players that deserve this treatment first. Helm, nyquist, tatat, kronwall, sheahan, abby, hell even larkin.

 

[DanZ]

I just find it funny that these people feel they need to teach someone who has consistently one of our best forwards all season.


There's other players that deserve this treatment first. Helm, nyquist, tatat, kronwall, sheahan, abby, hell even larkin.

This is about effort, not talent. Teaching Helm a lesson isn't going to give him better hands.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I just find it funny that these people feel they need to teach someone who has consistently one of our best forwards all season.


There's other players that deserve this treatment first. Helm, nyquist, tatat, kronwall, sheahan, abby, hell even larkin.

It always makes me laugh when people put Helm in a category like this. He's one of the hardest working players we have if not the hardest. Everyone knows he doesn't score. Scoring is not the reason he is on this team. Know that scoring is not his forte, why does he deserve this treatment?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It always makes me laugh when people put Helm in a category like this. He's one of the hardest working players we have if not the hardest. Everyone knows he doesn't score. Scoring is not the reason he is on this team. Know that scoring is not his forte, why does he deserve this treatment?

he demanded and was paid 20 million dollars to hustle ONLY?

yikes

 

[Winger98]

It always makes me laugh when people put Helm in a category like this. He's one of the hardest working players we have if not the hardest. Everyone knows he doesn't score. Scoring is not the reason he is on this team. Know that scoring is not his forte, why does he deserve this treatment?

I think it goes with the territory of signing a contract Holland never should have given him in the first place. Maybe it's not fair, but it goes with the territory.

 

[Hammettf2b]

he demanded and was paid 20 million dollars to hustle ONLY?

yikes

So you think he went in the negotiations stating he will start scoring goals now and Holland took his word for it and signed him to that contract?

Helm does a lot of good for the team. Is he worth the contract hes on, no, but again, thats not his fault. To mention Helm on a list of players that need to be reprimanded for not hustling/doing their job is laughable.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I think it goes with the territory of signing a contract Holland never should have given him in the first place. Maybe it's not fair, but it goes with the territory.

Right. But in terms of benching players for lack of effort it doesn't make sense to bench Helm for having stone hands just because Holland overpaid him. Sitting him in the press box for a couple games isn't going to suddenly give him a scoring touch.

 

[Winger98]

Right. But in terms of benching players for lack of effort it doesn't make sense to bench Helm for having stone hands just because Holland overpaid him. Sitting him in the press box for a couple games isn't going to suddenly give him a scoring touch.

Oh, I agree entirely, and made a similar point somewhere around here. I really think we get down on guys for a lack of effort more than it actually happens, too. I don't think everyone can go all out all of the time - unless their ice time is somewhat limited - and everyone goes through a funk. But if a guy made a habit of going out and coasting through shift after shift, I think they'd be out of the league pretty quickly.

 

[JPE123]

This is about effort, not talent. Teaching Helm a lesson isn't going to give him better hands.

Nobody could ever question Helm's work ethic or compete level. Talent yes. Benching a guy isnt going to change talent

 

[Dotter]

I do, and I understand needing to shake a guy up, sometimes. But I think doing it with 15 games left in a season that's long since lost isn't effective. At this point, I don't think it's 'teaching' so much as 'punishing', and I don't think that's an effective way to get a guy to compete. Had someone punched him in the mouth in December (or maybe even January), for instance, I could buy it as a wake up call.

Edit: At this point, I feel like he's looking at his production compared to nearly everyone else's, and thinking 'why am I busting my ass on a loser team, where the losers still get more ice time than I do, no matter how bad they are at hockey?' I don't think scratching him changes that mindset. And I don't think knocking the crap out him in practice changes that mindset, at this point. Maybe nothing changes it and we need to decide if his production is more important, or if we need to trade him. I still think holding *everyone* accountable is more effective, even if it pisses off some of the lifers and does little to effectively change the team's current trajectory. At least then we're not just picking the only two guys who seem capable of playing offense at an NHL level, post-Z.

I could NOT disagree more. To the point that when I read this, I cringed. The remainder of the season should be used as a 'training' system to prepare Mantha for next season and the rest of his NHL hockey career. He is young and NOW is the time to try and break his bad habits. You don't wait til next season, when you need him to be better, to try and 'teach him compete' in the game. If you don't try and break him now, while the season is nearly over, then you are promoting his bad work ethics now and into the future.

And sounds like Red Wings vets get that along with the coach. Poor work ethics should not, and will not be tolerated. Promoting anything else is just short sighted.

Glad Mike Green is sending a message!

Lastly, If Mantha doesn't pull it together quickly, he should be shipped out of here ASAP.

 

[njx9]

I could NOT disagree more. To the point that when I read this, I cringed. The remainder of the season should be used as a 'training' system to prepare Mantha for next season and the rest of his NHL hockey career. He is young and NOW is the time to try and break his bad habits. You don't wait til next season, when you need him to be better, to try and 'teach him compete' in the game. If you don't try and break him now, while the season is nearly over, then you are promoting his bad work ethics now and into the future.

But I think doing it with 15 games left in a season that's long since lost isn't effective. At this point, I don't think it's 'teaching' so much as 'punishing', and I don't think that's an effective way to get a guy to compete. Had someone punched him in the mouth in December (or maybe even January), for instance, I could buy it as a wake up call.

No idea who suggested waiting till next season, but it certainly wasn't in this thread.

 

[jolly roger]

Practice is getting intense :

That's really ****ing stupid

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's really ****ing stupid

Hahahahaha

It never fails. I posted satirically at the start of the topic about how people would be complaining about it... and boom... this and other people.

 

[TatarTangle]

I could NOT disagree more. To the point that when I read this, I cringed. The remainder of the season should be used as a 'training' system to prepare Mantha for next season and the rest of his NHL hockey career. He is young and NOW is the time to try and break his bad habits. You don't wait til next season, when you need him to be better, to try and 'teach him compete' in the game. If you don't try and break him now, while the season is nearly over, then you are promoting his bad work ethics now and into the future.

And sounds like Red Wings vets get that along with the coach. Poor work ethics should not, and will not be tolerated. Promoting anything else is just short sighted.

Glad Mike Green is sending a message!

Lastly, If Mantha doesn't pull it together quickly, he should be shipped out of here ASAP.

Shipping out what talent they have on a talentless roster does make a lot of sense.

 

[Heaton]

Shipping out what talent they have on a talentless roster does make a lot of sense.

Yep. If your goal is to miss the playoffs every year, trading Mantha because our coach has no idea how to put players in positions to succeed is one of them.

Blashill is a guy who was brought in because many people he could work magic with our young players because he was so good in the AHL. I think we're seeing that Blashill was good in the AHL... because he had elite AHL talent. Now that he has minimal NHL talent, he has no idea what he's doing. He's bound to go back to the AHL and finish off his days being successful when he gets elite AHL talent.

Regardless, it's a hilarious idea that we should trade Mantha because he's lazy on the backcheck sometimes. It's a big reason why scoring is down and creativity is down in the NHL. Everyone has to play a 200 ft game or you're blasted for it. Gone are the days where you had other players making up for the offensive players while the offensive players scored the goals. Now everyone needs to be part 4th liner, it's disappointing.

I have no problem with players being defensively competent, but these days you need to be more defensive than offensive.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So you think he went in the negotiations stating he will start scoring goals now and Holland took his word for it and signed him to that contract?

Helm does a lot of good for the team. Is he worth the contract hes on, no, but again, thats not his fault. To mention Helm on a list of players that need to be reprimanded for not hustling/doing their job is laughable.

I would hope he stated why he would be worth the money he was demanding and that it includes more than just being a good tryer