GDT: Wings @ Avs | Mantha looks to be back in | Howard starts

[Winger98]

But isn't low effort success better than high effort failure, in the grand scheme of problems to be addressed?

Low effort success is both short lived and short on the success.

 

[jkutswings]

accountable for what, though? By nearly all accounts the issue with Mantha isn't screwing up, it's effort. Do you think Helm is dogging it out there? Or Gator? Most of these guys aren't dogging it, they just suck.

I absolutely think there have been games where players other than Mantha and AA have been dogging it.

And that the free pass that Blashill is giving some of the players, juxtaposed against his tough love of others, is going to hurt the locker room more than help it.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Low effort success is both short lived and short on the success.

Tell that to the guy who's tied Tatar in points in 17 fewer games. It seems to me that he was pretty successful at it. Most nights, he was the only one creating anything at all. If that's failure, I'll take more of it.

 

[jolly roger]

No, I think that's absolutely a fair criticism. I can only go off of what I've found in coaching and playing sports, and none of that includes any direct knowledge of the Red Wings locker room. That said, I think it's fair to look at the Wings season and conclude that Blashill is not a particularly good hockey coach, and I think it's fair to question his decision making on that basis.

I also think it's a bit useless, in the context of a message board, to say "the coach/organization/GM/whatever knows best!" because it's basically a way of shutting down any non-conforming discussion. I think everyone here, in general, knows that no one has direct knowledge. That doesn't mean we're also not occasionally right or that there isn't interesting discussion to be had.

If I were Blashill I'd avoid getting anywhere near Sheahan.
He's getting the other eye, not the net.

 

[jkutswings]

Tell that to the guy who's tied Tatar in points in 17 fewer games. It seems to me that he was pretty successful at it. Most nights, he was the only one creating anything at all. If that's failure, I'll take more of it.

And that alludes to what I'm trying to get at.

If Mantha is loafing, sit him a game. No issue with that.

But guys like Tatar and Nyquist have had long stretches of being a waste of a roster spot, and not just due to execution. So, if you at least OCCASIONALLY sit those guys as well, then you're sending a message to EVERYBODY, and nobody has an excuse to skirt the rules.

It might even unite the players more deeply, in their disdain towards (what they deem to be too stringent) accountability.

 

[theD86]

And that alludes to what I'm trying to get at.

If Mantha is loafing, sit him a game. No issue with that.

But guys like Tatar and Nyquist have had long stretches of being a waste of a roster spot, and not just due to execution. So, if you at least OCCASIONALLY sit those guys as well, then you're sending a message to EVERYBODY, and nobody has an excuse to skirt the rules.

It might even unite the players more deeply, in their disdain towards (what they deem to be too stringent) accountability.

This is why Blashill has failed as a head coach.

 

[jkutswings]

This is why Blashill has failed as a head coach.

Being handed a very mediocre roster doesn't help, either.

 

[Bench]

Ready for this season to be over, just give me my top 10 pick already.

I'm just here to so I don't get fined.

 

[ricky0034]

I don't really care for this phrasing of "effort" as if 1: it's some binary thing and 2: there's only one kind of "effort"

honestly when people complain about someone like Mantha floating or whatever it's more of an issue of misdirected effort than a lack of it

well guess what? guys like Sheahan misdirect their effort too just in a different way,there's a reason some of these guys are having career worst years and it's not just Blashill

you could argue that they may be too old and stubborn for benching to help that but 1: if true then that's also on them and 2: not benching them sure as hell isn't

 

[Winger98]

Tell that to the guy who's tied Tatar in points in 17 fewer games. It seems to me that he was pretty successful at it. Most nights, he was the only one creating anything at all. If that's failure, I'll take more of it.

Considering production like Tatar's has led us to the bottom five teams in the league, I'm not sure I'm seeing the success in it.

I absolutely think there have been games where players other than Mantha and AA have been dogging it.

And that the free pass that Blashill is giving some of the players, juxtaposed against his tough love of others, is going to hurt the locker room more than help it.

Maybe, but I don't think it's been a consistent or persistent problem. I just don't see lack of effort being a big problem up and down the lineup every night. If it was, I think Blashill would have been canned by now.

And coaches have always given preferential treatment to either vets or stars. Locker rooms aren't fair places and the players know this. What it puts an onus on is management finding star players you don't have to make a lot of allowances for. Z&D show every night regardless. Yzerman showed up. The worst we had was probably Fedorov and he'd still show up and dominate from shift to shift while looking like he coasted. Mantha's not Fedorov, though.

edit: also, I'm not even big on trying to define guy's effort levels out there. Franzen would get slammed all of the time for "floating" but it's been pretty darn hard finding a guy to take his place in this lineup.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don't really care for this phrasing of "effort" as if 1: it's some binary thing and 2: there's only one kind of "effort"

honestly when people complain about someone like Mantha floating or whatever it's more of an issue of misdirected effort than a lack of it

well guess what? guys like Sheahan misdirect their effort too just in a different way,there's a reason some of these guys are having career worst years and it's not just Blashill

The play being cited for Mantha's benching wasn't floating or misdirected effort. It was "lose puck, react in a way that suggests he isn't interested in getting the puck back".

It wasn't not backchecking or not covering a man. It was committing a TO and then instead of getting on his horse to try and break up the chance he was more "meh, Danny will get it or that's Hanks man."

That's likely why the heavy handed reaction from blash. It's something Z talked to Mo about and he wasn't getting better about it. He was saying yeah, yeah, but not actually taking steps to get better

 

[Winger98]

I don't really care for this phrasing of "effort" as if 1: it's some binary thing and 2: there's only one kind of "effort"

honestly when people complain about someone like Mantha floating or whatever it's more of an issue of misdirected effort than a lack of it

well guess what? guys like Sheahan misdirect their effort too just in a different way,there's a reason some of these guys are having career worst years and it's not just Blashill

you could argue that they may be too old and stubborn for benching to help that but 1: if true then that's also on them and 2: not benching them sure as hell isn't

I think misdirected effort is more on the coaches than the players.

 

[Bench]

accountable for what, though? By nearly all accounts the issue with Mantha isn't screwing up, it's effort. Do you think Helm is dogging it out there? Or Gator? Most of these guys aren't dogging it, they just suck.

There's going to be a lot of participation ribbons to hand out at the end of the year.

 

[ricky0034]

The play being cited for Mantha's benching wasn't floating or misdirected effort. It was "lose puck, react in a way that suggests he isn't interested in getting the puck back".

It wasn't not backchecking or not covering a man. It was committing a TO and then instead of getting on his horse to try and break up the chance he was more "meh, Danny will get it or that's Hanks man."

That's likely why the heavy handed reaction from blash. It's something Z talked to Mo about and he wasn't getting better about it. He was saying yeah, yeah, but not actually taking steps to get better

sure maybe that's what is specifically being cited but if someone dug into it i'm sure they could find examples of someone like Sheahan or DeKeyser doing the same sort of thing from time to time,pretty much everyone does that occasionally

but were they benched for it? of course not,because 1: they aren't rookies and 2: they play the game wrong in the "right" way

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Practice is getting intense :

Mantha's got a price on his head.


They're going to bring back old man Bertuzzi to take care of him

 

[HIFE]

Helmer back in the top 6, yes!

 

[Hammettf2b]

Helmer back in the top 6, yes!

I think they want to give Larkin a decent look at center and figured they rather move Helm to the wing than Zetterberg or Nielsen.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

sure maybe that's what is specifically being cited but if someone dug into it i'm sure they could find examples of someone like Sheahan or DeKeyser doing the same sort of thing from time to time,pretty much everyone does that occasionally

but were they benched for it? of course not,because 1: they aren't rookies and 2: they play the game wrong in the "right" way

Are they doing it with a magnifying glass on their play? Are they doing it after specifically being told "don't do that crap?"

Mantha clearly has had convos with coaching staff and with veterans telling him to be better. He has done things in game that apparently have shown it's going in one ear and out the other.

 

[Datsyukian Deke]

Helmer back in the top 6, yes!

More chances to shoot the puck into the goalie's chest...

 

[JPE123]

I can remember 4 or 5 times this year that Vanek(himself also called a floater) made a turnover and quickly jumped back and took the puck away from the other team. I guess this is what they are trying to instill in Mantha. You can make a mistake but you can't just say- Oh well I made a mistake. Get back and try to make something happen. Just my 2 cents. Everyone sees the potential in Mantha and everyone wants him to reach it.

 

[Bench]

I can remember 4 or 5 times this year that Vanek(himself also called a floater) made a turnover and quickly jumped back and took the puck away from the other team. I guess this is what they are trying to instill in Mantha. You can make a mistake but you can't just say- Oh well I made a mistake. Get back and try to make something happen. Just my 2 cents. Everyone sees the potential in Mantha and everyone wants him to reach it.

That's fine. I think that's a good thing to instill in the youths. My problem is this organization only targets youths for any kind of public critique. Been like this for years and years.

I guess they threw Mrazek some shade earlier in the year. Unfortunately, Mrazek was unable to catch the shade and it ended up in the back of the net.

 

[JPE123]

That's fine. I think that's a good thing to instill in the youths. My problem is this organization only targets youths for any kind of public critique. Been like this for years and years.

I guess they threw Mrazek some shade earlier in the year. Unfortunately, Mrazek was unable to catch the shade and it ended up in the back of the net.

I'm not agreeing with Blashill and the organization's singling out Mantha but we don't see him in practice either.There may be a reason for it but one game is a message, after that it's childish. And the BS that they had a good game against Chicago and didn't want to break up lines is ludicrous. This team has had a few decent games this year but always go back to themselves after.

 

[ricky0034]

Are they doing it with a magnifying glass on their play? Are they doing it after specifically being told "don't do that crap?"

Mantha clearly has had convos with coaching staff and with veterans telling him to be better. He has done things in game that apparently have shown it's going in one ear and out the other.

see that's the problem,I would argue that they should be

why is it that only Mantha gets a "magnifying glass"?

I mean he gets one but guys like Sheahan that are currently having career worst years don't warrant a closer look? really?

 

[Ezekial]

see that's the problem,I would argue that they should be

why is it that only Mantha gets a "magnifying glass"?

I mean he gets one but guys like Sheahan that are currently having career worst years don't warrant a closer look? really?

AA was scratched for effort and responded positively to it. Abby spent time on the 4th line when Vanek was here, as did Helm. Tats and Nyquist have both been demoted to the third line at times. Larkin has been a staple on the third line due to poor play.

Sheahan was scratched and effort isn't the problem with him, he's been demoted to the fourth a lot recently and was only bumped up for Manta due to faceoff relief with 2 kids next to him. At the risk of being called a Riley Sheahan apologist I feel bad for the guy this season luck-wise.

 

[jkutswings]

AA was scratched for effort and responded positively to it. Abby spent time on the 4th line when Vanek was here, as did Helm. Tats and Nyquist have both been demoted to the third line at times. Larkin has been a staple on the third line due to poor play.

Sheahan was scratched and effort isn't the problem with him, he's been demoted to the fourth a lot recently and was only bumped up for Manta due to faceoff relief with 2 kids next to him. At the risk of being called a Riley Sheahan apologist I feel bad for the guy this season luck-wise.

All technically true, but Abby/Helm should be 3rd/4th liners to begin with, and Nyquist/Tatar should be 2nd liners to begin with. Bumping a guy down a line or two isn't quite the same as sitting him out altogether.