Will Vinny Lecavalier Make the Hall of Fame?

[arrbez]

He's arguing that when
- Sundin fans complain about Hoglund, etc
- Iginla fans about Conroy, etc
- Hossa fans about Bonk, etc

That these types of considerations have no merit when discussing a player who went from Richards to Lecavalier to Stamkos without ever being tasked with carrying a 'Bobby Holik' and a 'Jason Chimera' at any point in his career.

Or basically, scoring 80 points with Renberg and Hoglund is exactly the same as scoring 80 points with Richards/Lecavalier/Stamkos and Prospal/Stillman. No difference in degree of difficulty.

He was being being facetious and I was agreeing with him (although that may have been lost in translation).

But while it's true that St. Louis almost always had a great centre to play with, it always seemed to me that those centres benefited more from him than he did from them.

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm not sure there's much difference between Lecavalier's and Brad Richards' careers, aside from the 1st over pick pedigree of Lecavalier.

There isn't.

Richards has a better playoff peak and resume, Lecavalier has a better regular season peak.

If anything, I might consider Richards better.

 

[trentmccleary]

But while it's true that St. Louis almost always had a great centre to play with, it always seemed to me that those centres benefited more from him than he did from them.

Is this opinion based on their 70 point down years with 50 point wingers vs St. Louis merely changing star centers? We don't have a sample where St. Louis plays with a 50 point center to compare.

 

[arrbez]

Is this opinion based on their 70 point down years with 50 point wingers vs St. Louis merely changing star centers? We don't have a sample where St. Louis plays with a 50 point center to compare.

It's my opinion based on watching St. Louis drive play on those lines over the years.

 

[Erndog]

He was my fav player since he entered the league. I spent literally thousands of dollars collecting his hockey cards. I have game used memorabilia, sticks, the whole 9 yards. I was pretty well known in the collecting community as the Vinny collector.

Having said that, no I do not think he's a HOFer. His peak was too short lived. Had he had another 2-3 seasons in the middle there where he was above a PPG and Maurice Richard type of winner he would have gotten in but not with the resume he finished with.

 

[Stephen]

Don't think he should but probably will due to being a face of a franchise, first overall pick, and all those other factors.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

On an unrelated noted, how about Ryan Getzlaf or Anze Kopitar? Do either of those 2 get enshrined?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think they're tracking that way...I squint a little as I type this though...but I think they're going that way. They check off the boxes for me...I'm a full-on Getzlaf apologist...I think he's one of the most underappreciated players in the league, and then you go and mention a guy that might just overshadow him as both a player and as someone that's even more underappreciated...

Where I might lose the audience is that Getzlaf is much more of a HHOFer to me than Hart winner Corey Perry...who I don't think is a HHOFer at all...

While we're gerrymandering around current centers...in 250 words or less, explain to me what Jonathan Toews has over both of these guys (the Snot Rocket and the Slovenian...do I smell a sitcom?)...

 

[VanIslander]

I hope not.

 

[Terry Yake]

he was one of my favorite players but i say no

its a shame cooke ruined his career

 

[trentmccleary]

Where I might lose the audience is that Getzlaf is much more of a HHOFer to me than Hart winner Corey Perry...who I don't think is a HHOFer at all...

This makes perfect sense to me. A trophy doesn't make up for the fact that Getzlaf was better the other 12 years of their careers.

 

[Big Phil]

Can he get in? Yes. But our board has tougher standards than the HHOF committee. We tend to analyze things better on here without the biases and favouritism. There are lots of players that have gotten in that shouldn't have. So because of that I have to say maybe, but only based on HHOF standards, which have dropped.

I know people will point to the Cooke hit as part of his collapse. I won't. Here's why. He took a long time to burst out. In 2000 he had 67 points and the idea was that he was well on his way. Art Williams ("He'll be the Michael Jordan of hockey") looked correct. Then a bit of a drop in 2001. Then he held out a bit the next season and then had a 37 point year in 76 games. Any chance he had of making the 2002 Olympic team died with that season.

Then a jump in 2003, and then more or less the same in 2004. When was this guy going to truly burst out? It had been 6 seasons already. The 2004 playoffs provided some boost for him but even so he was outpointed by Frederik Modin. Not to mention well, well behind St. Louis and Richards. He performed alright, and contributed but it still wasn't that "lights out" version you expected of him. Compare him to Joe Thornton season after season. By season 6 Thornton already had a 101 point season. Big difference.

Then the lockout and then we figured he would burst out in the new NHL but he didn't. He had 75 points in 2006. Well behind even Brad Richards. Only once he hit 2007 and 2008 with those seasons did he start to hit expectations. Then the Cooke hit and he was never quite the same. However, he's 28 with the Cooke hit. At best he was on a projection for the HHOF but after 10 seasons a guy of his potential should have been at the position where he is close to "if he retired tomorrow he's in" type of thinking. But he wasn't.

 

[McRpro]

Why not. Look at some of the names in there. Vinny certainly wouldn't be the most egregious.

 

[The Panther]

I know people will point to the Cooke hit as part of his collapse. I won't. Here's why. He took a long time to burst out. In 2000 he had 67 points and the idea was that he was well on his way. Art Williams ("He'll be the Michael Jordan of hockey") looked correct. Then a bit of a drop in 2001. Then he held out a bit the next season and then had a 37 point year in 76 games. Any chance he had of making the 2002 Olympic team died with that season.

Then a jump in 2003, and then more or less the same in 2004. When was this guy going to truly burst out? It had been 6 seasons already. The 2004 playoffs provided some boost for him but even so he was outpointed by Frederik Modin.

I really agree with this. Granted, Lecavalier came in at a tough time (onset of dead-puck era) and on a not-very good team, but in his first 4 seasons he never once reached All-Star level. The guy was 6'-4'', 215 lbs. If anyone had the physicality to thrive in the DPE, it was him. And yeah, that 2001-02 season really stands out as a major disappointment. He's 21 going into that season, hitting his physical peak (you would think)... and has a thoroughly unimpressive season, third in scoring among Lightning centers. Four seasons into his career, he's basically a third-liner.

Then from 2002 to 2011 he did enough to be a noteworthy and very impressive player at the highest level. But 2006-2008 aside, I always had the impression that he could have done more.

 

[These Are The Days]

As one of his biggest fans and supporters I'd have to say I'd be surprised if he made it. Vinny at his peak in 2006 was absolutely 100% HHOF caliber no question about it. On any given night you could say "He's playing like the best in the world" and you would not have been exaggerating. But the problem is it only lasted that year and the next. He got derailed by injuries and was never the same again. He never put up the numbers, he never sustained. For all that shine it burned out quickly. It was never his fault but you gotta be blessed with luck and longevity and sadly Vinny had neither.

In so many words it's one thing to be deserving of something but to never earn it. If a few breaks went his way it wouldn't have been a question Lecavalier belonged in the HHOF. But because it didn't he'll never be much better than Hall Of "Ohhh man he was good!"

 

[These Are The Days]

Vinny Lecavalier's 5 best seasons:
2006-7: 82 games - 52g (1st) 108p (3rd) 4th in Hart voting, 2nd All-Star
2007-8: 81 games - 40g (9th) 92p (6th)
2002-3: 80 games - 33g, 78p
2005-6: 80 games - 35g, 75p
Hard to find a fifth season, I guess you could argue 10/11 - 65 games, 25 goals, 54 points.

Steven Stamkos' 5 best seasons:
11-12: 82 games - 60g (1), 97 points (2nd) 2nd in Hart voting, 2nd All-Star
09-10: 82 games - 51g (1), 95 points (5th) 6th in Hart voting
10-11: 82 games - 45g (2), 91 points (5th) 2nd All-Star
12-13: 48 games - 29g (2), 57 points (2), 8th in Hart voting
17-18: 78 games - 27g, 86 points

Fifth season is tough. Some of his injury shortened seasons were really good (13-14 he has 25 goals in 37 games which I believe led the lead in GPG, and 16-17 he was at over a half goal a game as well before he was injured in the 17th game of the season), but that was his only other full season over a point per game.

I don't think this is close. I would say Stamkos' best season surpasses Vinny's (especially when factoring in league scoring post-lockout), but top 5 it isn't close. Stamkos is a HHOF lock while Vinny is likely on the outside looking in.

Stamkos is a lock? I would've argued Hedman but Stamkos? Damn bro that is bold. We'll see if it holds up. If Stamkos returns to form you may just end up being right because right now there's no better case to leave him out of the HHOF than there is to put him in. He is toeing the line closely.

 

[DitchMarner]

Stamkos is a lock? I would've argued Hedman but Stamkos? Damn bro that is bold. We'll see if it holds up. If Stamkos returns to form you may just end up being right because right now there's no better case to leave him out of the HHOF than there is to put him in. He is toeing the line closely.

Stamkos is getting into the HHOF unless he absolutely fizzles out starting next year (even if that happens, he may get in).

 

[DitchMarner]

Then the lockout and then we figured he would burst out in the new NHL but he didn't. He had 75 points in 2006. Well behind even Brad Richards. Only once he hit 2007 and 2008 with those seasons did he start to hit expectations. Then the Cooke hit and he was never quite the same. However, he's 28 with the Cooke hit. At best he was on a projection for the HHOF but after 10 seasons a guy of his potential should have been at the position where he is close to "if he retired tomorrow he's in" type of thinking. But he wasn't.

I don't think it's surprising Richards outscored him in 2006. He outscored him in a lot of not if most of their seasons in the NHL.

 

[ted2019]

I think they're tracking that way...I squint a little as I type this though...but I think they're going that way. They check off the boxes for me...I'm a full-on Getzlaf apologist...I think he's one of the most underappreciated players in the league, and then you go and mention a guy that might just overshadow him as both a player and as someone that's even more underappreciated...

Where I might lose the audience is that Getzlaf is much more of a HHOFer to me than Hart winner Corey Perry...who I don't think is a HHOFer at all...

While we're gerrymandering around current centers...in 250 words or less, explain to me what Jonathan Toews has over both of these guys (the Snot Rocket and the Slovenian...do I smell a sitcom?)...

Getzlaf is much more deserving to go into the Hall then Perry. Getzlaf is a much more rounded player and is the leader of Anaheim. The Ducks can win without Perry, they can't without Getzlaf.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't think it's surprising Richards outscored him in 2006. He outscored him in a lot of not if most of their seasons in the NHL.

Oh yeah for sure. It shouldn't surprise anyone. For starters, it happened a lot and secondly Richards could score pretty good himself. But based on talent alone it SHOULD have been Lecavalier............you'd think.

Hard to believe but if one of them makes the HHOF it is Richards who has a better case, and I wouldn't induct him.

Stamkos is a lock? I would've argued Hedman but Stamkos? Damn bro that is bold. We'll see if it holds up. If Stamkos returns to form you may just end up being right because right now there's no better case to leave him out of the HHOF than there is to put him in. He is toeing the line closely.

By "return to form" are you thinking of his 60 goal season? Or those 3-4 years where he peaked from 2009-2013? That was pretty good, but the guy still had 86 points last year, good for 12th in the NHL. If he has even more of those types of seasons in the future how is he not a HHOFer? The biggest knock on Stamkos is that his playoff resume doesn't match his regular season resume. But even then, he has tons of time left to rectify that and secondly it isn't THAT bad to keep him out of the HHOF. He's probably getting 600 goals in his career and he'll do it the right way (eg. high peak seasons, not hanging around and padding his stats to make the career numbers look better)

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I am surprised... I thought tgis would be more up for debate... Looking at most people saying Getzlaf doesn't get in on main board has me confused too.

So we go by the actual hall standards or this board?

I mean they have the team success and individual success...true Vinny flamed out quickly but what seperates them from say Jonathan Toews who everyone just excepts is a lock.

I know he has two more cups but he will also have worse numbers

 

[Stephen]

I really agree with this. Granted, Lecavalier came in at a tough time (onset of dead-puck era) and on a not-very good team, but in his first 4 seasons he never once reached All-Star level. The guy was 6'-4'', 215 lbs. If anyone had the physicality to thrive in the DPE, it was him. And yeah, that 2001-02 season really stands out as a major disappointment. He's 21 going into that season, hitting his physical peak (you would think)... and has a thoroughly unimpressive season, third in scoring among Lightning centers. Four seasons into his career, he's basically a third-liner.

Then from 2002 to 2011 he did enough to be a noteworthy and very impressive player at the highest level. But 2006-2008 aside, I always had the impression that he could have done more.

Lecavalier took too long to get into gear and suffered a rather abrupt decline, though his brief career peak was pretty much what was projected of him.

For the first few years of his career, you expected him to match or exceed what Joe Thornton was doing, but often fell short despite maybe having superior raw abilities.

Lecavalier did come into the league at a horrible developmental time for the NHL, when teams would rather overpay for guys in their late 30s than develop the kids. Even for a 6'4" beanpole, breaking into the late 90s NHL was no easy thing.

 

[DitchMarner]

I am surprised... I thought tgis would be more up for debate... Looking at most people saying Getzlaf doesn't get in on main board has me confused too.

So we go by the actual hall standards or this board?

I mean they have the team success and individual success...true Vinny flamed out quickly but what seperates them from say Jonathan Toews who everyone just excepts is a lock.

I know he has two more cups but he will also have worse numbers

Getzlaf should make it in if he keeps up his play. He has time to add to his career. The main board seems to overrate the threshold.

However, as far as Vinny goes, even if you go by the HHOF standard, what gives him an advantage over Bobby Smith, Owen Nolan, Rick Nash, Rick Middleton, Alex Kovalev, Brad Richards, Alex Mogilny, Theo Fleury, Daniel Alfredsson, Jeremy Roenick, Patrik Elias, Steve Larmer etc? What about guys like Brind'Amour and Damphousse?

He may be inducted eventually, but I don't see it happening any time soon at all.

I think he'll have to wait longer than Roenick's had to, and I see him becoming the Smith of his generation and missing out.

 

[Stephen]

He was being being facetious and I was agreeing with him (although that may have been lost in translation).

But while it's true that St. Louis almost always had a great centre to play with, it always seemed to me that those centres benefited more from him than he did from them.

Agreed. St. Louis was the straw that stirred the drink. He wasn't riding any centerman's coat tails.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Definitely one of the guys who was hurt by the lockout a bit. Who knows what he would have done in 04/05?