Will there be another player like Datsyuk?

[The Toews Era*]

Read above, added some stats for context. It shows that he was as elite offensively. Again, its the distribution of ice times that allow superstars to stand above the competition over the course of 82 games.

I agree that toi matters, for sure, and agree with p/60 type metrics. I dont necessarily agree that it is linear though, as added toi provides more opportunity to either get worn out or revert to the mean a bit over a larger sample.

However, for the sake of argument, lets say that its linear and datsyuk would have those extra points by carrying his pace forward to more minutes. He still would not have lapped the field the way that Kane and Mcdavid did. I think his offense, while great, was never on the superstar tier (and he had way more support those years on his team).

Speaking of p/60, Toews ES p/60 in 2013 (3.19) blows away Datsyuks 09 (2.78) and 08 (2.54).

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Not that I can think of. And no, Toews is not better than him or similar to him. There are better offensive players in the league and some that are close to or better than him defensively, but I don't think there is a comparable player to him in the NHL. His creativity alone made him unique, combine that with his offensive talent and his defensive game you have one of the best all around players the game has seen.

 

[DanZ]

I agree that toi matters, for sure, and agree with p/60 type metrics. I dont necessarily agree that it is linear though, as added toi provides more opportunity to either get worn out or revert to the mean a bit over a larger sample.

However, for the sake of argument, lets say that its linear and datsyuk would have those extra points by carrying his pace forward to more minutes. He still would not have lapped the field the way that Kane and Mcdavid did. I think his offense, while great, was never on the superstar tier (and he had way more support those years on his team).

Speaking of p/60, Toews ES p/60 in 2013 (3.19) blows away Datsyuks 09 (2.78) and 08 (2.54).

Datsyuk wouldn't have lapped the field because he had significantly harder competition for the Art Ross. This is indisputable.

 

[The Toews Era*]

No, but they clearly are all passed their peaks, especially Ovechkin. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Kane has zero Art Rosses if they're at their peaks, like they were when Datsyuk was at his.

Unprovable hypothetical being passed off as fact. The point is that its very unclear what would have happened because kane dominated his peers in a way few have offensively in recent history, while datsyuk did not even sniff the leaders.

For example, if you take malkins 113 point season in 09 and simply scale it down by the change in overall goalscoring between 09 and 16 (2.91 vs 2.71 gpg), you wind up with 105 points and kane still winning the art ross by 1. So you cant really say if this and that then kane doesnt win, not when kane lapped everyoe in such a dominant fashion.

 

[LarKing]

Not sure why you keep mentioning defense. I like two way players and agree that overall contribution is what matters. I was replying specifically to posts severely exaggerating datsyuk by saying he had the offense of kane and the defense of bergeron combined.

Hardly.

In reality he is on the spectrum of great two way players, in the same tier as toews kopitar etc but with more power play points (both due to more pps in general and being tied to the hip to lidstrom and a great power play all the time). Somewhat worse in the playoffs than those guys as well, just one cup as a top liner and lower playoff production than those guys.

One of the biggest reasons that power play was so good was Datsyuk. He was always the go to guy to enter the zone and to set up the play either back to Lidstrom for the one timer or to the front of the net with either a shot with Holmstrom screening or a pass to Holmstrom/Franzen open in the slot. You mention being tied to Lidstrom's hip as if Kane doesn't have Keith, Crosby doesn't have Letang, Kopitar doesn't have Doughty, etc. No those defenseman aren't as good as Lidstrom but to act like Datsyuk was only good on the PP because of this is ridiculous. Datsyuk was a huge reason the power play was so good. Just look at how bad ours has been this year in our first year without him. Our power play actually improved the first few years after Lidstrom's retirement so this is a baseless argument all the way around anyway.

 

[DanZ]

Unprovable hypothetical being passed off as fact. The point is that its very unclear what would have happened because kane dominated his peers in a way few have offensively in recent history, while datsyuk did not even sniff the leaders.

For example, if you take malkins 113 point season in 09 and simply scale it down by the change in overall goalscoring between 09 and 16 (2.91 vs 2.71 gpg), you wind up with 105 points and kane still winning the art ross by 1. So you cant really say if this and that then kane doesnt win, not when kane lapped everyoe in such a dominant fashion.

And does Kane winning by 1 point make his win less significant?

 

[The Toews Era*]

Toews 12-13 numbers too small a sample size? Ok lets extend it to FIVE YEARS.

Toews es p/60 between 2010 and 2015 - 2.45.
Datsyuks es p/60 between 2007 and 2012 - 2.43.

Datsyuks only offensive advantage over Toews (forget the offensive superstar tier) is playing on a league leading power play in a plum role with lidstrom. Over a five year prime period, he cant match toews' es rate production.

 

[DanZ]

Toews 12-13 numbers too small a sample size? Ok lets extend it to FIVE YEARS.

Toews es p/60 between 2010 and 2015 - 2.45.
Datsyuks es p/60 between 2007 and 2012 - 2.43.

Datsyuks only offensive advantage over Toews (forget the offensive superstar tier) is playing on a league leading power play in a plum role with lidstrom. Over a five year prime period, he cant match toews' es rate production.

Maybe Toews should stop sucking on the PP. If he was more skilled it would be better.

Datsyuk was also a better possession and defensive player. The only thing Toews was actually better at is goalscoring.

 

[LarKing]

Toews 12-13 numbers too small a sample size? Ok lets extend it to FIVE YEARS.

Toews es p/60 between 2010 and 2015 - 2.45.
Datsyuks es p/60 between 2007 and 2012 - 2.43.

Datsyuks only offensive advantage over Toews (forget the offensive superstar tier) is playing on a league leading power play in a plum role with lidstrom. Over a five year prime period, he cant match toews' es rate production.

Again, our power play was actually better the years after Lidstrom retired. Also the fact that your calling it a plum role is too precious.

Also, not Datsyuk's fault Toews is garbage on the power play. Maybe he should work on his skills there.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Toews > Datsyuk. Always has been, always will be.

Why does every thread have to be hijakced by Toews talk? MOD

 

[The Toews Era*]

Maybe Toews should stop sucking on the PP. If he was more skilled it would be better.

Datsyuk was also a better possession and defensive player. The only thing Toews was actually better at is goalscoring.

He seems to have more skill at producing at even strength in his prime. The skill doesnt magically go away on the power play. Its a system/role effect. Kane has the better role, like Datsyuk did, and Datsyuk also had Lidstrom and a more highly ranked pp all those years. AND way more power plays as a whole called leaguewide in 08/09.

Cling to the power play advantage if you need to, but the era and system effects are there in spades. When compared to Kane who does get the better role (albeit fewer overall chances and no Lidstrom), his offensive peak blows away Datsyuk.

Datsyuk is in the Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron tier, nothing wrong with that. Only difference is his offensive peak seasons had the added tailwind of a lidstrom power play and more power plays called. And the other difference is him doing less in the playoffs than those three, despite having as good or better supporting casts.

 

[LarKing]

He seems to have more skill at producing at even strength in his prime. The skill doesnt magically go away on the power play. Its a system/role effect. Kane has the better role, like Datsyuk did, and Datsyuk also had Lidstrom and a more highly ranked pp all those years. AND way more power plays as a whole called leaguewide in 08/09.

Cling to the power play advantage if you need to, but the era and system effects are there in spades. When compared to Kane who does get the better role (albeit fewer overall chances and no Lidstrom), his offensive peak blows away Datsyuk.

Datsyuk is in the Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron tier, nothing wrong with that. Only difference is his offensive peak seasons had the added tailwind of a lidstrom power play and more power plays called. And the other difference is him doing less in the playoffs than those three, despite having as good or better supporting casts.

Are you saying that the best regular strength players are the best power play players? You should probably tell that to Claude Giroux, who had no player like Lidstrom for you to use as an excuse. He's one of the best power play players in the league and certainly not one of the best even strength players.

The only difference is he was the best possession player of all time, which is kind of an important thing for drawing penalties to gain a power play and entering the zone on the power play. But sure, act like he wasn't an important power play player and was just riding Lidstrom's coattails.

 

[nickdawg95]

ahhh yeah, his name is eichel

 

[b in vancouver]

Not that I can think of. And no, Toews is not better than him or similar to him. There are better offensive players in the league and some that are close to or better than him defensively, but I don't think there is a comparable player to him in the NHL. His creativity alone made him unique, combine that with his offensive talent and his defensive game you have one of the best all around players the game has seen.

Marchand?
When did Datsyuk get put on this pedestal? Great player but not... will anyone ever be like that again category.

 

[Narow]

Thread about anyone like datsyuk.. sees toews....????



As an answer to "Will there be another player like Datsyuk?"



It is a no from me - simon cowell

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Ah, these threads are always great.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in even strength points: 59, 56, 55, 48, 45

Toews' Top seasons in even strength points: 49, 48, 47, 46, 42


Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in even strength pts/g: 0.73, 0.71, 0.70, 0.68, 0.65

Toews' Top 5 seasons in even strength pts/g: 0.83 (shortened season), 0.71, 0.63, 0.61, 0.58



Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in points: 97, 97, 87, 87, 68

Toews' Top 5 seasons in points: 76, 69, 68, 68, 66


Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in points per game: 1.20, 1.18, 1.16, 1.10, 1.05

Toews' Top 5 seasons in points per game: 1.02 (shortened season), 0.97, 0.95, 0.90, 0.90,


# of Datsyuk p/g seasons: 7

# of Toews p/g seasons: 1 (shortened season)


Datsyuk seasons in Top 10 NHL scoring: 3

Toews seasons in Top 10 NHL scoring: 0


Datsyuk seasons in Top 10 NHL p/g: 3

Toews seasons in Top 10 NHL p/g: 0


Datsyuk Selke Trophies: 3

Toews Selke Trophies: 1


Datsyuk is also the higher Corsi player, in fact the highest forward ever since it's been tracked.

And the cherry on top of it all: The opposition player that Datsyuk has played the most minutes against since Corsi has been tracked?!?! Jonathan Toews.

Datsyuk head-to-head against Toews: 52.8 CF% and 55.6 Goals For %

And of course...

Toews head-to-head against Datsyuk: 47.2 CF% and 44.4 GF%


Datsyuk and Toews are not in the same tier. That's a laugher. Outside of the single shortened season where Toews inflated numbers didn't have time to return to normal, he's always been a step behind Datsyuk in every sense of the imagination. And Datsyuk being a great PP player is supposed to be a negative? Please, tell that to Mario Lemieux.

Datsyuk > Toews. Always has been and always will be.

Toews does get the nod when it comes to best pig-nosed mural on the side of a building though.

 

[DanZ]

Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in even strength points: 59, 56, 55, 48, 45

Toews' Top seasons in even strength points: 49, 48, 47, 46, 42


Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in even strength pts/g: 0.73, 0.71, 0.70, 0.68, 0.65

Toews' Top 5 seasons in even strength pts/g: 0.83 (shortened season), 0.71, 0.63, 0.61, 0.58



Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in points: 97, 97, 87, 87, 68

Toews' Top 5 seasons in points: 76, 69, 68, 68, 66


Datsyuk's Top 5 seasons in points per game: 1.20, 1.18, 1.16, 1.10, 1.05

Toews' Top 5 seasons in points per game: 1.02 (shortened season), 0.97, 0.95, 0.90, 0.90,


# of Datsyuk p/g seasons: 7

# of Toews p/g seasons: 1 (shortened season)


Datsyuk seasons in Top 10 NHL scoring: 3

Toews seasons in Top 10 NHL scoring: 0


Datsyuk seasons in Top 10 NHL p/g: 3

Toews seasons in Top 10 NHL p/g: 0


Datsyuk Selke Trophies: 3

Toews Selke Trophies: 1


Datsyuk is also the higher Corsi player, in fact the highest forward ever since it's been tracked.

And the cherry on top of it all: The opposition player that Datsyuk has played the most minutes against since Corsi has been tracked?!?! Jonathan Toews.

Datsyuk head-to-head against Toews: 52.8 CF% and 55.6 Goals For %

And of course...

Toews head-to-head against Datsyuk: 47.2 CF% and 44.4 GF%


Datsyuk and Toews are not in the same tier. That's a laugher. Outside of the single shortened season where Toews inflated numbers didn't have time to return to normal, he's always been a step behind Datsyuk in every sense of the imagination. And Datsyuk being a great PP player is supposed to be a negative? Please, tell that to Mario Lemieux.

Datsyuk > Toews. Always has been and always will be.

Toews does get the nod when it comes to best pig-nosed mural on the side of a building though.

Lol that's a wrap.

Edit: Datsyuk's 5th best season points-wise was actually 70.

 

[authentic]

Yet he had a better pt/60 than everyone in the league for those who played a majority of the season. Goes to show you, that deployment and ice times are a HUGE HUGE factor, not only that but his defensive mentality which affects his position and play contribute to a less offensive approach.


08-09'
Malkin 113 pts 3.67 pt/60 >> TOI/Gm 22:31 PP TOI/Gm 5:33
Ovechkin 110 pts 3.63 pt/60 >> TOI/Gm 23:00 PP TOI/Gm 5:24
Crosby 103 pts 3.66 pt/60 >>TOI/Gm 21:56 PP TOI/Gm 5:22
Datsyuk 97 pts 3.75 pt/60 >> TOI/Gm 19:12 PP TOI/Gm 3:23

Link shows season pt/60 leaders
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...aters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

So despite, less favorable ice times, and deployment, Datsyuk had arguably a better offensive season. Lets recap, he was the only one with any reasonable shorthanded time and played 2 mins less of PP time a game than those above him, yet had a better pt/60.

And there we have it. I also didn't realize his overall time on ice was that much less than them. Given those stats and actually having watched him dominate the game all over the ice I feel very comfortable saying he was the best player in the world for those two seasons.

 

[sparxx87]

Toews 12-13 numbers too small a sample size? Ok lets extend it to FIVE YEARS.

Toews es p/60 between 2010 and 2015 - 2.45.
Datsyuks es p/60 between 2007 and 2012 - 2.43.

Datsyuks only offensive advantage over Toews (forget the offensive superstar tier) is playing on a league leading power play in a plum role with lidstrom. Over a five year prime period, he cant match toews' es rate production.

You can't be serious?

Forget the numbers. Think about all the different skills and qualities that make up a hockey player. Now, compare Toews and Datsyuk in every one of those categories... It's really not close.

Datsyuk was a near perfect hockey player. Nobody has the combination of IQ, awareness, and anticipation, and also the elite skating and stick skills to fully utilize it all in all 3 zones. Truly one of a kind and it could be years, even a decade or more before a true comparison comes along.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Datsyuk was just a beeeast


Imma watch some games fron 07-10 seasons. Any recpmmendations?

is there a place online to watch old games aside from youtube?

 

[Tofveve]

I really liked/like Pavel. He is missed.

 

[Leafs87]

ANY MANY MORE

I'm a huge toews fan but not even close to comparable

 

[GOilers88]

Well according to Glen Healy he never had much talent, he just worked really hard. So if the kids start working harder...

 

[TheMule93]

This was probably his best playoff series


If you are interested in watching his entire (regular season) career highlights i'd encourage you to watch these 3 videos

2002-2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaZ4s5yoGvQ
2010-2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rWFtOFpAk
2014-2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ZdA6W2sRk

This last video shows literally every single playoff point he scored + more playoff highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnROSTERx0U

Before getting injured in 2010-2011, Datsyuk was pacing to have another year similar to his 07-09 run. He came back later in the season and the points dried up a bit. He also had one of his best playoff runs that year.