Why Vegas won

[tbcwpg]

The Caps are doing a good job of limiting Vegas from being able to enter the zone effectively and reduce counter attacks. That's a tactic. The Vegas forecheck has slowed significantly though and that's just an execution thing. They look far slower than they did against the Jets and it's nothing that Trotz is doing.

They're not doing anything special in the o-zone, though. Sticking with the argument of "it wasn't mainly Fleury" is just mind boggling. Goalies can drop off and have a bad stretch, and that's what's happening, not some coaching genius that Maurice missed.

And you might as well call him bad if you call him mediocre. There's no positive inference you can make from "mediocre".

 

[Weezeric]

A few reasons but mainly... Fleury.

If people honestly dont think a goalie putting up a 950 save percentage is a huge difference.. Then i dunno.

Hes not putting up 950 now tho.. Hes closer to 840... How many more goals is that? Theres your difference.

Obviously gallant was coaching real good when he had the .950 but has now started being real bad at coaching, that has led to the .840.

And if you don't agree, you clearly aren't smart at hockey.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

And you might as well call him bad if you call him mediocre. There's no positive inference you can make from "mediocre".

When I say mediocre I mean around average, in the middle group, middle 1/3, middling. His record indicates that he deserves a lower rating than what I believe, but he has a lot of NHL experience. He is a good communicator and a master with the media. Overall, he was effective, maybe highly effective at managing our injuries during the regular season this year. Good at managing the youth development as well. He is excellent at never throwing players under the bus publically. He comes across as being really likeable and genuine, even when he is manipulating the media. He has been a great spokesperson for the team and the city as well. Some really good personal qualities there imho.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Considering we had over 50 wins.. Over 100 points... Our young guys are playing big roles and our leaders love the guy, and this from a guy who wanted him gone at the end of last season, i dont think blaming Maurice who should be a finalist for coach of the year cuz who the heck predicted the above, is really fair.

 

[Eyeseeing]

52-20-10
Let that sink in

WCF let that sink in

I’m a hardcore cynic I’m not so sure we could have possibly done much better given the expectations.

Maurice is not to blame in my opinion.
Everyone gave it their all and it simply wasn’t enough.
If there was no effort that would be one thing but Vegas always had answer and we couldn’t muster enough of a push back or hold a lead.
Initially I was bummed out but retrospectively pretty satisfying I’d say.
At this point does it really matter?

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

I fell like you aren't able to follow what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, is that I feel the Jets lost to Vegas because of a lack of coaching adjustments (line up and offensive/defensive strategies). Not because Fleury was playing out-of-this-world. He was the product of a fantastic team-defense in front of him limiting the Jets' scoring chances to low percentage chances.

Our coach is not the type of coach who seems able to make these kinds of adjustments (like Barry Trotz has for WSH)....until it's way too late. After Game 1, WSH has made life miserable for Fleury because of strategic changes from their coach. It has exposed Fleury to the goalie I've followed since 2005 (when I started following the Penguins....because of Crosby and we had no team in Winnipeg at that point). The Jet's let Fleury see everything. Hence, simple routine saves for him. He also tends to make saves look harder than they are with scramble/dives (instead of being square to the puck like a Price or Holtby).

Maurice kept trying the same thing game after game with the same result. Vegas simply laughed. Maybe we had more zone/possession time, but never did I feel like we were a threat to score with it. We were held mostly to perimeter play. Our PP was stagnant and stationary. I would've put Buff in front of Fleury and had more movement amongst our other guys. It was way too easy to defend. Our PK is a terrible formation (in my opinion) that allows the opposing team to pass around up top and fire at will. They either score, or one of our players ends up blocking a shot and is injured. Recipe for disaster.

Bottom line, I disagree with you that we lost because of their goaltender.

Lol, no I fully understand what you are saying.

When you pipe in proclaiming Ducky10 must let his POV go, because you are announcing that coaching adjustments were the reason we lost that series, and MAF goaltending was not, I get that you have zero clue, or you didnt watch the series.

But since you are such an expert about coaching adjustments, lol, please do explain to us the game plan he implemented, and please explain how you have such extensive knowledge about the lack of changes he made to that game plan, like actual proof other than your beliefs . I saw a game changes, I saw a different effort to enter the zone and get the puck out of our zone after game 3, but you must have some sort of proof that there were no changes implemented to the original game plan.

As well please explain to us why all the credible analysts and hockey insiders agreed that goaltending was the big difference in that series. Dreger, Lebrun and Bob Mackenzie stated adamantly that MAF played at an insanely high level, and was the difference in the series. Are we to believe they have no clue as to what they are talking about and that you are the one we should be listening to, LOL yeah right.

Then you can explain to us how the analytics test stated MAF played at an extremely high level, levels not normally in play off time. Then you could also explain the eye test that stated MAF made amazing saves at key times keeping in the game in their hands.

So we have the top hockey insiders, analytics and advance stats, as well as the eye test (I believe you call that the ultimate trifecta in proof) telling us you have no clue what you’re talking about, so do please explain to us why we should ignore the experts, the ultimate in proof, and believe your factless rhetoric?

I wait in anticipation.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Well now that you've cleared that up

It's pretty clear you've built up this great assessment all year based on your posting history. Let's face it, this was always going to be the narrative for certain posters, unless the Jets won the Cup. Even then I get the impression it would have been entirely because of the players.

Carry on.

How pathetic is that.

Conference finals
2nd best record in the league
Knocked out the best team in the league
Knocked out a good team in the Wild

All these amazing accomplishments, best season in the history of this city, all this success, yet we have to listen to 3 or 4 posters regurgitate their same factless rhetoric in their weirdly desperate attempts to convince the board that our coach failed us.

Like i said, had we made it to the finals and lost to the Caps, they would be pointjng their fingers and blaming Maurice for that. Win a cup in 7 games, they would be trying to convince us a good coach would have done it in 6. Win in 6, revise their statement that a good coach would have done it in 5.

Blaming and finger pointing is such a useless human activity. You definitely do not win with teammates that do it, and it’s not a good look for fans either.

But if you’re going to do it and it’s in your nature, get your facts right and make sure that you’re actually pointing in the right direction instead of just sounding clueless.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

A few reasons but mainly... Fleury.

If people honestly dont think a goalie putting up a 950 save percentage is a huge difference.. Then i dunno.

Hes not putting up 950 now tho.. Hes closer to 840... How many more goals is that? Theres your difference.

Sad that this needs to be stated over and over and over again.

We have 3 apparent experts here that saw something completely different than the rest of the entire hockey community, and apparently their opinion trumps what everyone else seems to agree on.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Untill someone can quantify Maurice’s gameplan, state that it was fully implemented, which proves it didn’t work, and then prove he didn’t try to adjust that plan, ya got nothing.


Prove me wrong, but do it with facts, not trumped up theories, and i will concede.

I wait for factual, actual proof, lol, cause it aint coming

 

[KingBogo]

I think both strands of analysis have something to offer, and I guess I'm in the boat that looking hard at those decisions that might have contributed to the Jets' collapse is likely to be more beneficial than attributing that collapse to puck luck and a generational performance from MAF (note: not accusing posters here or Jets management of the latter).

Fleury was insane, but the Jets' and especially Helle's fatigue was something that several sharp posters had warned about earlier in the season -- specifically, Unholy's (and possibly also Puck Stoppa's) observations that PoMo has a history of riding goalies hard, and that Helle was going to need a rest at some point in order to avoid exhaustion come playoff time. It seems pretty clear that he wasn't as sharp in the Vegas series as he'd been against MN and NSH, and I wonder if resting him -- and maybe spotting a game to Vegas in the process -- might have resulted in a Helle who makes the saves that keep us in the games that follow, and so on.

I guess I'm asking, if you were PoMo and Chevy and company, what do you differently -- that's reasonable, and under your control -- in order to aim for a better outcome next time?

I'd let the young core develop for a couple more years and let them mature into their primes while doing my best to hold onto everyone and as much supporting cast as I could. After that don't think I'd do much else differently.

While I'd give the biggest chunk of credit to MFA's .950 in the series after that I think especially our young core hit a wall they couldn't get over. Scheifele and Wheeler carried the offense as far as they could but to win the cup we will need Laine, Ehlers and all our young stars to carry as equally a heavy load. Helly also slipped a bit. Maybe he was ridden too hard, but the almost unbelievable injuries to our backups this season also contributed to that. But either way at some point he will need to carry whatever load is required as many great goaltenders before him.

But to be honest coaching should be very low on the list of where to point fingers. In a single series Gallant has gone from a coaching savant to some to a bumbling out of touch fool to others. A guy you rides a face puncher on tilt when he needs offense to stay in a series. Neither are accurate and neither is the narrative that Maurice got out coached.

 

[Hunter368]

MAF.....it’s simple as that. Don’t get me wrong I like the LV system they play but it was MAF that beat the Jets.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

/ end of thread

 

[surixon]

I'd let the young core develop for a couple more years and let them mature into their primes while doing my best to hold onto everyone and as much supporting cast as I could. After that don't think I'd do much else differently.

While I'd give the biggest chunk of credit to MFA's .950 in the series after that I think especially our young core hit a wall they couldn't get over. Scheifele and Wheeler carried the offense as far as they could but to win the cup we will need Laine, Ehlers and all our young stars to carry as equally a heavy load. Helly also slipped a bit. Maybe he was ridden too hard, but the almost unbelievable injuries to our backups this season also contributed to that. But either way at some point he will need to carry whatever load is required as many great goaltenders before him.

But to be honest coaching should be very low on the list of where to point fingers. In a single series Gallant has gone from a coaching savant to some to a bumbling out of touch fool to others. A guy you rides a face puncher on tilt when he needs offense to stay in a series. Neither are accurate and neither is the narrative that Maurice got out coached.

As much as I think Maurice could have done a bit better job managing some players ice time more efficiently at the end just playing some of the young players as hard as he did may pay dividends down the line.

You bet Helle will be better for it now having gone through the playoff grind.

So will Ehlers, Laine and Conner.

He still needs to learn how to further reel in Buff and Wheeler. Buff was gassed against Vegas and Wheeler was a step slower then usual. There is no reason to hold Morrissey back anymore, no more 20 minutes a night, he needs to be at 22 to 23 minutes, Trouba 24 and Buff to 23. Buff can't play big minutes if we want beast Buff in the playoffs.

 

[KingBogo]

As much as I think Maurice could have done a bit better job managing some players ice time more efficiently at the end just playing some of the young players as hard as he did may pay dividends down the line.

You bet Helle will be better for it now having gone through the playoff grind.

So will Ehlers, Laine and Conner.

He still needs to learn how to further reel in Buff and Wheeler. Buff was gassed against Vegas and Wheeler was a step slower then usual. There is no reason to hold Morrissey back anymore, no more 20 minutes a night, he needs to be at 22 to 23 minutes, Trouba 24 and Buff to 23. Buff can't play big minutes if we want beast Buff in the playoffs.

Agreed, we will be much better served with each passing season as our young core is able to take on an ever bigger load. I look at the difference between Scheifele against the Ducks where he was dominated by good veteran centers to the beast he was just 3 years later. Once we have Laine, Ehlers, Connor and Rosie pulling that type of weigh along with Morrissey and Trouba maxed out on minutes and a prime Helly then we will win a cup or 2.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

As much as I think Maurice could have done a bit better job managing some players ice time more efficiently at the end just playing some of the young players as hard as he did may pay dividends down the line.

You bet Helle will be better for it now having gone through the playoff grind.

So will Ehlers, Laine and Conner.

He still needs to learn how to further reel in Buff and Wheeler. Buff was gassed against Vegas and Wheeler was a step slower then usual. There is no reason to hold Morrissey back anymore, no more 20 minutes a night, he needs to be at 22 to 23 minutes, Trouba 24 and Buff to 23. Buff can't play big minutes if we want beast Buff in the playoffs.

Everything you explained is reasonable, and constructive. Its not to say Maurice could not have done things differently, players, as well.

Unlike the senseless dribble trying to convince us the reason we lost this series was solely due to Maurice not adjusting the game plan, which is just mindless finger pointing.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Fyi

Another top end hockey insider and anlytics guru, Scott Cullen, just on TSN 1290, stated repeatedly that the reason the Jets lost in the Vegas series was:

GOALTENDING AND PUCK LUCK BOUNCES!

Are these experts all clueless, like all of them?

 

[Tommigun]

Considering we had over 50 wins.. Over 100 points... Our young guys are playing big roles and our leaders love the guy, and this from a guy who wanted him gone at the end of last season, i dont think blaming Maurice who should be a finalist for coach of the year cuz who the heck predicted the above, is really fair.

I think the turning point for this team and franchise was when Maurice called them out and said the Jets are going nowhere until they learn to defend. The message was well received and the rest is history. The Jets are a well coached team. Maurice also agreed to play a lot of rookies last year, more so than most coaches would have agreed to. Still people were complaining about him somehow favoring the vets. That’s slightly absurd and I’m very high on Maurice.

 

[Tommigun]

Sad that this needs to be stated over and over and over again.

We have 3 apparent experts here that saw something completely different than the rest of the entire hockey community, and apparently their opinion trumps what everyone else seems to agree on.

I still don’t understand how this is a discussion. The Coyotes would have beat us if they had a 95 save %. Any team having that kind of goaltending will win. It was unfortunate.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

I still don’t understand how this is a discussion. The Coyotes would have beat us if they had a 95 save %. Any team having that kind of goaltending will win. It was unfortunate.

I believe they refer to it as alternative facts, these days.

There are a few things that happened in that series, along with goaltending, and not just the save% MAF put up, but the timely saves, big swing moments snuffed out by key saves at key times.

Couple that with the exact opposite in goaltending on our end, bad goals at key times that destroyed momentum. Those break downs after we would score, they happen all the time, but we usually had Hellebuyck stopping them. The Vegas series he showed some fatigue, lost focus at bad times. It happens when a sophomore goalie puts up more minutes in a season than ever before.

The games overall were relatively close. In our 4 losses, we outshot or tied them in all 4, better cf%, strong possession numbers, and the shot charts clearly show us getting shots in high danger areas.

The eye test also clearly showed what the numbers backed, we were getting goalied in that series, it is undeniable.

Yet as you point out, the ludicrousness of some trying to tell us we were out played, out coached, and we made MAF look good, is beyond comical. The only purpose they have is to try to convince the masses that Maurice is a bad coach, its been that way for years.

You have analytics, eye test, top analysts and insiders, every ounce of the hockey community stating exactly what happened, in unison, yet according to a couple of posters hell bent on painting a fake picture, coaching is to blame.

I guess at some point, credibility goes completely out the window.

 

[behemolari]

first period of 4th game was it for me, no more point to watch nhl hockey.. and didn't watch rest of the series or finals.

 

[ocdaddy]

first period of 4th game was it for me, no more point to watch nhl hockey.. and didn't watch rest of the series or finals.

What was it that happened?

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

What was it that happened?

He's likely referring to the reffing. Notably the dive on the Myers penalty that put us down 1-0, followed by Wheeler getting tripped with no call, followed by the missed interference call, and then Scheifele getting cross checked in the face which drew blood which was a bare minimum 4 minute PP, but ended up with 55 going to box instead and us on the PK.

Even the least skeptical among us were blown away.

Some serious BS prevented us from tying the series at 2.

 

[ocdaddy]

He's likely referring to the reffing. Notably the dive on the Myers penalty that put us down 1-0, followed by Wheeler getting tripped with no call, followed by the missed interference call, and then Scheifele getting cross checked in the face which drew blood which was a bare minimum 4 minute PP, but ended up with 55 going to box instead and us on the PK.

Even the least skeptical among us were blown away.

Some serious BS prevented us from tying the series at 2.

Im trying to recall if this was the game where Sheif tied it at 1 and the Helle bobbled the puck leading to a goal 30 seconds later.

Hindsights 20/20 but that seemed like a bad break that got into their heads and a turning point in the series.

 

[Robinson2187]

I'm guessing this thread lives through the summer...lol

Reasons:
1) Fatigue/injury
2) MAF

Sure Mo coulda done some things differently but I don't think it would have been enough to swing the series in our favor anyways. You can't get blood from a stone.

 

[tbcwpg]

Im trying to recall if this was the game where Sheif tied it at 1 and the Helle bobbled the puck leading to a goal 30 seconds later.

Hindsights 20/20 but that seemed like a bad break that got into their heads and a turning point in the series.

That was game 3. Laine tied it on the PP in game 4 and then Helle gave up a bad rebound in game 4.