News Article: Why the failure? Top down org.

Drivesaitl

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Pre-Bettman compared to post-Bettman. We are talking a 70% efficiency rate down to a 0% efficiency rate. I never excluded any other correlation in my argumentation. I believed I already mentioned most of them.

You mentioned one variable, Bettman, you would have been better to just state the differential numbers as a fact, since Bettman has been commish for any full season not one Canadian Team has won the cup, full stop. But in your first post you state its a Bettman specific directive. Its the latter that people dispute.

I'm saying this btw while acknowledging Bettman could be an operating variable, but that several other operating variables and factors exist.

Culturally something that is clearly the case now is that fans are considered dross by pro athletes. this being a cultural shift change that stretches beyond hockey or sports. Where society has returned to labeling working class, or general joes as peons, Homer Simpsons to be ridiculed, laughed at. This is not the 50's or 60's or 70's where fans were respected and acknowledged as everything that moves the cart. The whole respect of fans has decreased. Even reasons to respect the fans. Players will flock to the states where fan opinion means far less in hockey, and you can even ignore it. The whole aspect of basking in adulation has been supplanted by basking in salary and perks and benefits. For Rocket Richard the reason to play was putting smiles on people, uplifting a province or even a Country. For most players its not about that. So they would have little affinity now for places that eat drink and dream hockey.

Even in entertainment you have movies like "The Fan" or "Bodyguard" where fans are reduced to stalking psychopaths to be avoided at all costs. I mean its just entertainment but its become so commonplace to depict fans that way. Even sports writers constantly ridicule fans. Ridicule their opinions. Fans don't get heed now, they get jeered. Even by idiot players ranting that some fan threw their jersey on the ice. The present pro sports game takes a caustic view of fans now, and almost constantly. So that players are not going to want to play in fan rabid markets.

What players now take home discounts to play and remain in Canadian markets. I mean real, not token discounts?

You get instead guys for hire like Lucic who are terrible players that give far less of themselves in Canada than they did in Boston and are just guns for hire here caring only about the money while residing in the US. The same Lucic that made statements that people in Vancouver are all creeps and losers now and he'll never live there again. This is an attitude that circulates among players more than might be thought. Just with guys like Milan they are silly enough to out things that are supposed to not be stated.
 
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Broberg Speed

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To be fair Canadian teams went to the finals in 94, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2011 losing all series with 4 coming in game 7.
Even losing all 5 series goes against the probabilities given even chance (1/32 or just over a 3% chance). But I'm talking about actual championships. Using my sample, feel free to switch it up any way you want, we went from winning 34 out of 48 cups in Canada to winning 0 out of a possible 26 cups. How is that possible?
 

Drivesaitl

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To be fair Canadian teams went to the finals in 94, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2011 losing all series with 4 coming in game 7.

Careful, that makes it sound more like a manifest destiny...;)

Weren't the Nucks even up 3-1 in games in that series? Didn't they choke it away?

In anycase such a dismal record. The 7th game results just making it look more painful for Canadian clubs.
 

MessierII

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Even losing all 5 series goes against the probabilities given even chance (1/32 or just over a 3% chance). But I'm talking about actual championships. Using my sample, feel free to switch it up any way you want, we went from winning 34 out of 48 cups in Canada to winning 0 out of a possible 26 cups. How is that possible?
Well I mean in the original 6 era 2 of the 6 teams were Canadian and everybody made the playoffs. Right off the hop you had a 1/3 chance of winning before the rosters are even set. The Canadian teams back then had a huge scouting advantage as well. In the 80’s you had 7 Canadian teams also but only 21 teams so again better odds.
 

MessierII

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Careful, that makes it sound more like a manifest destiny...;)

Weren't the Nucks even up 3-1 in games in that series? Didn't they choke it away?

In anycase such a dismal record. The 7th game results just making it look more painful for Canadian clubs.
Against Boston yeah they went up 3-1 and choked. Against NY I believe it was the opposite.

Just in general playoff series though not just finals it seems Canadian teams lose game 7’s at a ridiculous rate.
 

GOilers88

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Bettman = Zero Canadian Stanley Cups in 26 years...
Pre-bettman = 34 Stanley Cups in 48 years.
1992-93 Montreal Canadiens
1989-90 Edmonton Oilers
1988-89 Calgary Flames
1987-88 Edmonton Oilers
1986-87 Edmonton Oilers
1985-86 Montreal Canadiens
1984-85 Edmonton Oilers
1983-84 Edmonton Oilers
1978-79 Montreal Canadiens
1977-78 Montreal Canadiens
1976-77 Montreal Canadiens
1975-76 Montreal Canadiens
1972-73 Montreal Canadiens
1970-71 Montreal Canadiens
1968-69 Montreal Canadiens
1967-68 Montreal Canadiens
1965-66 Montreal Canadiens
1964-65 Montreal Canadiens
1963-64 Toronto Maple Leafs
1962-63 Toronto Maple Leafs
1961-62 Toronto Maple Leafs
1959-60 Montreal Canadiens
1958-59 Montreal Canadiens
1957-58 Montreal Canadiens
1956-57 Montreal Canadiens
1955-56 Montreal Canadiens
1952-53 Montreal Canadiens
1950-51 Toronto Maple Leafs
1948-49 Toronto Maple Leafs
1947-48 Toronto Maple Leafs
1946-47 Toronto Maple Leafs
1945-46 Montreal Canadiens
1944-45 Toronto Maple Leafs
1943-44 Montreal Canadiens

Doesn't this seem odd?
Yeah I saw that the first time.

How many teams were in the league for basically that whole list? And considering now there's soon to be 32 teams and only 7 of them Canadian, the odds are in favor of an American market winning. This really is a crazy conspiracy theory.
 

Drivesaitl

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Against Boston yeah they went up 3-1 and choked. Against NY I believe it was the opposite.

Just in general playoff series though not just finals it seems Canadian teams lose game 7’s at a ridiculous rate.

Its an interesting comment. I mean when the Habs were even winning the cup in 86 or 93 they were not favorites, they rose above the competition, they played with a fierceness that outmatched opponents, their dedication, dig down were greater. Something has been missing since then. You don't get the sense to the same degree that the players were passionate in any way about winning for Canada. I mean you did with Ryan Smyth, but Peca, Pronger, Samsonov, etc, they were just guns for hire, and it felt like they were just here for a short time. I mean Pronger played great here, but oddly didn't win the cup here, won it in Anaheim. Even though the Oilers club was arguably better than the SC Anaheim club (although I could see people disputing that)
 

Broberg Speed

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Well I mean in the original 6 era 2 of the 6 teams were Canadian and everybody made the playoffs. Right off the hop you had a 1/3 chance of winning before the rosters are even set. The Canadian teams back then had a huge scouting advantage as well. In the 80’s you had 7 Canadian teams also but only 21 teams so again better odds.
You know if I used the previous 48 years to Bettman's Canadian atrocities but I included Canadian teams that lost in the finals it makes it even more lopsided when you crunch the numbers. But you bring up a valid point. I also brought it up in passing knowing it was a valid point.

Simply change the sample size. Keep Bettman's 26 years of Canadian futility as full year commissioner but only use 5 years of pre-Bettman as a sample of Canadian teams winning the Cup prior to Bettman. Use ten years, 15 years or 26 years. I haven't done any analysis by expansion but for someone who plays with numbers this is a cakewalk.
 
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iCanada

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Another variable that gets overlooked is the Canadian teams more than other teams have had kind of shit old-boys club mentalities and "tradition" far more than other clubs. Was a collective period of 7 teams all just not improving their business for the last 30 years.

Oilers for the longest time had the EIG, then Katz who just put all the old boys on a platter. The Flames are still owned by an EIG style community group of investors. The Ballard Leafs were laughably incompetent the entire way. The Habs just recently started hiring people for jobs when they dont speak french, increasing their available applicant pool by a factor of 20.

Ottawa and Vancouver for awhile had fairly innovative ships, both made some deep runs and got unlucky. In fact I honestly bet the Sens win a cup if it wasn't for Lowe gifting Burke the Con Smythe winner in Pronger. After which Ottawa became the cheapest team in the league.

You add those factors in to taxes, fans, and weather making the US more attractive, of course you're not winning cups.
 

MessierII

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Another variable that gets overlooked is the Canadian teams more than other teams have had kind of shit old-boys club mentalities and "tradition" far more than other clubs. Was a collective period of 7 teams all just not improving their business for the last 30 years.

Oilers for the longest time had the EIG, then Katz who just put all the old boys on a platter. The Flames are still owned by an EIG style community group of investors. The Ballard Leafs were laughably incompetent the entire way. The Habs just recently started hiring people for jobs when they dont speak french, increasing their available applicant pool by a factor of 20.

Ottawa and Vancouver for awhile had fairly innovative ships, both made some deep runs and got unlucky. In fact I honestly bet the Sens win a cup if it wasn't for Lowe gifting Burke the Con Smythe winner in Pronger. After which Ottawa became the cheapest team in the league.

You add those factors in to taxes, fans, and weather making the US more attractive, of course you're not winning cups.
I feel like old boys club thing isn’t just a Canadian team thing. Look at Boston, Detroit, Colorado...they all do the exact same thing. I also think the tax and weather thing is overstated. Canadian teams problems aren’t from lacking of willing free agents in fact if anything teams like Toronto and Edmonton have signed too many big free agents getting themselves into cap trouble. You don’t build a team through free agency anyway.

It pretty much solely comes down to bad drafting and bad overall management. Canadian teams have some advantages. If you live here in Canada year round which a lot of players do you get paid in Canadian dollars which is a huge boost to your income. Every Canadian team has stable ownership (Ottawa is on the cusp) and can spend to the cap to contend without crippling the organization.
 

Shathar

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Wow what a depressing trip down memory lane :)

that particular brand of old-school stupidity is pervasive throughout the entire NHL, but it is changing. And that (at least) I am very happy about.
 
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MessierII

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You know if I used the previous 48 years to Bettman's Canadian atrocities but I included Canadian teams that lost in the finals it makes it even more lopsided when you crunch the numbers. But you bring up a valid point. I also brought it up in passing knowing it was a valid point.

Simply change the sample size. Keep Bettman's 26 years of Canadian futility as full year commissioner but only use 5 years of pre-Bettman as a sample of Canadian teams winning the Cup prior to Bettman. Use ten years, 15 years or 26 years. I haven't done any analysis by expansion but for someone who plays with numbers this is a cakewalk.
Another factor is the mid 90’s Canadian dollar crisis put Canadian teams at a huge disadvantage prior to the salary cap.
 

Broberg Speed

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Another factor is the mid 90’s Canadian dollar crisis put Canadian teams at a huge disadvantage prior to the salary cap.
I mentioned that factor as well but Bettman sure didn't go out of his way to help Canadian teams as the media would lead one to believe. It's all bullshit. 26 years of the same shit without any attempt at a correction for the disparity.

Was revenue sharing put in place to help Canadian teams? That's a serious question. I don't believe it was.

You can't undo the past 26 years of Bettman. He essentially robbed Canadians of their national pastime to an extent. That's my claim because I no longer have confidence in the allegiance to fairness and candor in this league.

If we are going to eat shit every passing year with this guy at the helm shouldn't we try something else.

I wouldn't mind an all Canadian league with the championship decided between two Canadian teams every single year. We develop the players. We have the interest in the sport and the ability to pay the players top dollar on the free market.

Let's go.
 

Sugi21

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Another variable that gets overlooked is the Canadian teams more than other teams have had kind of shit old-boys club mentalities and "tradition" far more than other clubs. Was a collective period of 7 teams all just not improving their business for the last 30 years.

Oilers for the longest time had the EIG, then Katz who just put all the old boys on a platter. The Flames are still owned by an EIG style community group of investors. The Ballard Leafs were laughably incompetent the entire way. The Habs just recently started hiring people for jobs when they dont speak french, increasing their available applicant pool by a factor of 20.

Ottawa and Vancouver for awhile had fairly innovative ships, both made some deep runs and got unlucky. In fact I honestly bet the Sens win a cup if it wasn't for Lowe gifting Burke the Con Smythe winner in Pronger. After which Ottawa became the cheapest team in the league.

You add those factors in to taxes, fans, and weather making the US more attractive, of course you're not winning cups.
I will also add your points is that Mtl can’t even hire a non francophone GM or head coach so that already lessens the potential prospect pool in those areas no wonder why previously fired Hab coaches can have a second tenure with them!
 

Snipes45

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Success is a funny thing. I personally know a few people who are very up there financially. One went from being a regular Joe and slowly moving up in life and business. Takes home an easy 6-12 million a year after taxes. Bad marriage and kind of annoying and all about himself.

Some of them have been successful and are well off and are just a tad cocky.

The big 2 probably make a few hundred grand a month easily in just interest payments. Networth well over 100M. Would never know they were rich or had any money by looking at them or talking to them.

The really successful guys for the most part are people who don't have an ego, genuinely want others to also succeed, and ALWAYS TRYING TO LEARN, even at the top. Well run businesses properly hire people, develop people, etc. They see areas that need fixing/eliminating, etc and act quickly and swiftly.
 

smokersarejokers

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I'd like to point out a thread I made last year:
Scouting Staff (Comparisons)

It's just a hilarious microcosm of everything wrong with this organization.

Oilers have one of the smallest scouting departments in the league, with no european scouting.
To top it all off, our Scouting dept are relatives of our alumni.
Thanks for bringing this back up. I remember this post.

Add to that, most teams have at least 1 or 2 people in "player development". The Oilers had Howson doing that (OBC), but I think he's been involved in the AHL on the business side for like a year now.

By the way, what the f*** does Gretzky actually do? And why the f*** is Lowe still on the payroll if he's not involved in hockey decisions?
 

Perfect_Drug

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Thanks for bringing this back up. I remember this post.

Add to that, most teams have at least 1 or 2 people in "player development". The Oilers had Howson doing that (OBC), but I think he's been involved in the AHL on the business side for like a year now.

By the way, what the f*** does Gretzky actually do? And why the f*** is Lowe still on the payroll if he's not involved in hockey decisions?

Gretzky bought a minority stake in the Oilers. So he's a partner and vice-chairman.
 

Snipes45

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Finals isn't a Championship. Do you understand that? If so stop repeating it. It's sports entertainment, pure and simple.

Lot's of heals get to beat "the man" in pro wrestling to a pulp but they never walk away with the belt. It good for Bettman's US ratings and it keeps the rubes from asking to many questions.

I've thought about the draft being rigged. I think about it every year. What's to stop them? Nothing.

I don't know why we got McDavid... to keep the plebs in Canada from facing the reality of having a 0% chance of winning a Stanley Cup under Bettman, which is the actual percentage of cups awarded to Canadian teams under Gary Bettman.
Does Bettman have some magic mind control curse on every Canadian Gm that has been in their roles?

This is one of the most perplexing things I have read on these boards in years.
 

Snipes45

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Here are some statistics for ya. There are 7 Canadian teams and 24 America FFS lol

Absolutely mindboggling RIDICULOUS to say GB is somehow holding the Canadian team down lolllll. Then you are comparing it to that circus that is the WWE?
 

Broberg Speed

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Does Bettman have some magic mind control curse on every Canadian Gm that has been in their roles?

This is one of the most perplexing things I have read on these boards in years.
Yeah, I'd say Bettman does employ mind control. He has overseen the league for 26 years without a Canadian team winning a championship and he has accomplished this without being put to the question about this Canadian futility under his reign as commissioner.

Specially when considering "the indisputable fact" that before Bettman became the commissioner Canadian teams were winning 70% of the cups, regardless of the sample size used. 70% to zero%. You don't think this is significant in any way? wtf

It's called sports entertainment, it's a powerful mind controlling media, like a drug, and your response alone reinforces my supposition even further that Gary Bettman is efficient in using this mind control.
 

GOilers88

#DustersWinCups
Dec 24, 2016
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Yeah, I'd say Bettman does employ mind control. He has overseen the league for 26 years without a Canadian team winning a championship and he has accomplished this without being put to the question about this Canadian futility under his reign as commissioner.

Specially when considering "the indisputable fact" that before Bettman became the commissioner Canadian teams were winning 70% of the cups, regardless of the sample size used. 70% to zero%. You don't think this is significant in any way? wtf

It's called sports entertainment, it's a powerful mind controlling media, like a drug, and your response alone reinforces my supposition even further that Gary Bettman is efficient in using this mind control.
Todd?

From Leduc?
 
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The Panther

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I have been a huge advocate for this line of questioning for a long time, ten years ago on these boards I was showing people the (infinitesmal) odds of this happening in a fair competition, and those odds have become even more unbelievably small. Under the rough assumption that every year a quarter of the league is Canadian franchises, there is a 75% chance of the cup NOT going to a Canadian franchise every year. But multiply .75 by itself 26 times and the odds become almost ridiculously small. I'm not into conspiracy theories but something is going on here. And it's clear that it would have to have something to do with the league's highly profitable southern expansion under Bettman. I think that salary/tax stuff plus a total lack of incentive for success on the part of Canadian owners has a lot to do with it. Players have massive incentives to move south, and Canadian owners have zero incentives to improve (whereas Vegas, TB etc had massive incentives to improve and be amazing fast, they couldn't count on revenues and had to compete with other sports).

Honestly? Hockey needs to look long-term and try to get a tiered system going like in soccer. Once you expand past 36 teams you break the league up, and only the top tier competes for the Stanley cup. Top 4 teams from the bottom tier are promoted every year, bottom 4 teams from the top tier are relegated down every year. Awful franchises couldn't count on the revenue stream and would have a real incentive to become at least somewhat good. Reward innovation and success, punish complacency. Otherwise I fear we are looking at a situation which is basically permanent.
I agree with this post.

What amazes me about Canadian hockey fans is how passive people are about the fact that Canadian franchises haven't won for nearly 30 years. I still hear people saying utter brainwashed nonsense like, "WE HAVE TO 'GROW' THE GAME!" What? No, f*** that, we don't. We have to demand that our teams win.

It's doubly painful for long-term Oilers' fans who saw the most dominant athlete in North American pro-sports -- the lynchpin of a Dynasty, at that -- sent to California, resulting in acceleration of the "growth" of the game, as if we should care about that.

Try to imagine, if, in the future, Major League Baseball expanded so that 2/3 of the teams were in Central and South America. And then imagine if a US-based franchise didn't win the World Series for thirty years. Would US sports fans just take that sitting down? Like hell, they would. They'd all be up in arms, and something drastic would happen to either create a US-only League or create a better opportunity for US-based teams to win.

Finally, this season, there's a better-than-average chance for a Canadian-based club to progress back to the Finals, anyway, thanks to the Pandemic. But why the hell hasn't there been a Canadian-only division before? It's the most logical thing to please all factors. It hasn't happened because Canadian sports fans are timid, passive wimps. The NHL org knows Canadian franchises and fans are easy money, and laughs all the way to the bank.

(Rant over.)
________________________________

Now, onto the Oilers' organizational problems. I don't agree with all of Draivsaitl's points, but I'm sure some of them are accurate, and yes, clearly there have been big problems with the Oilers' org for many, many years.

The usual things, like big-headed managers appointed for no good reason, croney-ism, and stubborn-ness are big parts of it all. I'm also sure that the difficulty of making Edmonton an attractive place for NHL players to play in is part of the problem. What ex-dynasty members like Lowe and MacTavish needed to have pride in was the FRANCHISE and the FANS, not themselves. But Kevin Lowe, in particular, seems to have rested on his Cup-winning pedigree (to which he was a significant, but not particularly essential, member) to self-justify his own arrogance. Faced with young players coming in who didn't know about Edmonton and might have been unsure about a small-market Canadian franchise, the Oilers' post-millennial org greeted them with: "WE ARE AWESOME EX-PLAYERS WHO KNOW EVERYTHING, SO LISTEN TO US, SON, AND YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING."

In fact, if you talk to players -- like Doug Weight, an American -- who thrived in Edmonton, they'll tell you they loved the fans and the hockey-passion of the city. They got wrapped up in how BIG the team was in the small community, and thrived on the "small us vs. big everyone else" role.

One of the most beautiful things about the Oilers' Dynasty era in the mid-1980s was that it was a giant middle-finger to the Eastern power-centers of the NHL who desperately didn't want Vancouver, and esp. Edmonton, Quebec, and Winnipeg, to join the League. The Oilers were the first western-based franchise to win a Stanley Cup between 1925 and 1984, and their (very fast) ascension to the top coincided with clubs like Toronto, New York, and Detroit hitting the bottom. The beauty of playing in Edmonton, for the Oilers, is that it's a small kingdom of noble people fighting the evil Galactic Empires of the NHL itself and the Eastern cities.

Kevin Lowe (perhaps because he's from Quebec?) doesn't seem to understand this, and thought his role was to tell young players what to do, when the very teaching he had been brought up in, from Glen Sather, was the exact opposite. Sather was expert at motivating players and letting them see their own potential, whereas the millennial-era Oilers' org seems to be more about cults of personality centered around a few individuals who want to put their stamp on things. MacTavish, who had previously done great things as a player and then a coach, fell into this trap when he was (for no apparent reason) elevated to GM and decided he had to prove himself by putting his big-boy pants on and firing Krueger (to hire Eakins!).

Ironically, Glen Sather's great success occurred when a singular owner (Pocklington) had total control of the club. To give Pocklington his credit, however, he found the right person to run the hockey club and he kept out of the way of the hockey stuff entirely, until salaries started becoming a prevalent issue from 1987 onward. (Pocklington then single-handedly destroyed the franchise's rosy-status by dealing Gretzky for a bag of pucks and some cash to pay for his sausage factory.)

And make no mistake -- this franchise has STILL NOT RECOVERED from the Gretzky sale.
 
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