Why isn't the OHL more popular?

[HamiltonOHL]

I know where i was sitting last year for season tickets it went down $4 in my town from 18 a game for STH to 14 a game for STH on my section..

If you think about it..

heres QMJHL avg #'s from last year... its hockeydb of course but anyways

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=QMJHL1970&sid=2017

then look at OHL #'s

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=OHL1989&sid=2017

They have 18 teams we have 20 and WHL has 22 teams and here are their #'s

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=WHL1979&sid=2017

I told my reps at my OHL team why not offer more of the family package where u get 4 drinks 4 tickets and 4 hotdogs for x amount like you see at some games.. I was told because of sponsors and such covering the cost like pepsi and such they are only allowed to do it a few times a year... I bet if they did that package you would see more family's out to games.

With Hamilton their cheapest seat is 22 most expensive seat is 26.00 however there plus side i guess to say that ticket master does not have any fees unless u consider that its added to the price on ticket master per say..

 

[Otto]

People have to remember though... the cost of things has gone up and as such the price of your ticket needs to go up in order to account for it. I wonder what hydro costs were in some of these rinks 10 years ago compared to today?
Guaranteed that you'll see a big increase in your tickets next season as we inch closer to a $15/hr minimum wage.

As for the $9 beers... as long as people keep paying that price, they will keep charging it.

 

[hockeylegend11]

If you are dyed in the wool CHL guy then obviously. Fortunately for these kids CHL hockey isn't the only league for players. Union College won the 2014 national title 13 players were either the age of 22 or 23, some of those guys will never play AHL/NHL. This is why the model is broken, forcing kids 16 or 17 to make a decision the OHL deluding families and players into thinking that their son is going to make the NHL. Kids mature at different stages asking the public to shell out 25-30 dollars to watch 16-20 year olds. I remember going to hockey games for a lot cheaper than 20-25 dollars and I got to watch. There were a lot of players I enjoyed watching who didn't have long NHL careers like the Shannon brothers/Bill Bowler etc.. Part of the enjoyment was not having to pay 25 dollars to see them, along with being damn good players. I am not shelling out 25 dollars a game to see Cole Purboo pretend to be skating.

Too bad the NCAA has its stupid rules,self serving,forcing players at a young age to decide, Juniors don't have those dumb rules NCAA,backwards.

 

[member 71782]

People have to remember though... the cost of things has gone up and as such the price of your ticket needs to go up in order to account for it. I wonder what hydro costs were in some of these rinks 10 years ago compared to today?
Guaranteed that you'll see a big increase in your tickets next season as we inch closer to a $15/hr minimum wage.

As for the $9 beers... as long as people keep paying that price, they will keep charging it.

Certainly prices have gone up and if wages had gone in a comparable manner affordability probably wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Owners and facility owners/operators expect returns, fair enough but when you expect returns that exceed what the markets can provide and you rely on attendance for your business to survive you price yourself out of business.

Dwindling attendance that leads to further price increases will lead to a continued drop in attendance requiring the cycle to continue as teams try to maintain/increase their return.

It always leads to a breaking point.

 

[member 71782]

On the issue of contraction, schedule etc.

If the league was cut to 16 teams, and I would base it on those teams most vulnerable financially in terms of team revenues, not how deep an owners pockets are, you will create a more viable league.

First, while incoming league revenues will drop revenue sharing amongst the owners will likely increase with fewer hands getting a cut and those contributing the least no longer benefitting from those contributing the most.

Improved product. With fewer teams you are concentrating the same amount of talent on fewer teams which would increase the level of competition.

Better development. High level of skill on each team allows for better development since kids playing with higher skilled kids will naturally improve more than with lower skilled kids.

Increased talent pool. With some teams eliminated and a higher overall level of skill the league itself becomes more attractive to those sitting on the fence about where to play.

More high level kids in a more concentrated league creates a much more attractive product.

 

[OSA]

Id really like to know what costs OHL teams bear that are so burdensome that they need to charge what they do for tickets. I'm here in Cape Breton tonight; this team has the greatest amount of travel of any CHL team, and my ticket cost me $16. 75

 

[member 71782]

Id really like to know what costs OHL teams bear that are so burdensome that they need to charge what they do for tickets. I'm here in Cape Breton tonight; this team has the greatest amount of travel of any CHL team, and my ticket cost me $16. 75

My guess is the greatest one of all, an inflated ROI.

The most centralized league with the lowest amount of travel, similar expenditures and probably the highest average ticket prices.

 

[digiblader]

And for Peterborough, Kingston, and even the Ottawa 67s, things are going to get worse with the arrival of the AHL in that territory with the Belleville Sens... considering prices will be comparable to current OHL prices for players that are just one level below the NHL.. same problem is happening in the Q in areas near Laval.

 

[Millpond]

Blackouts would just create less exposure, they do more harm than good.
Maybe if the OHL streaming service was actually quality people would care, 240p broadcasts were considered garbage quality a decade ago and low framerate feeds are simply unwatchable.
Let me buy a yearly package and get access to literally every game played at any time with no commercials, all at 1080p 60fps. THAT would be worth paying for.


Entire game highlights like above and easy to navigate youtube channels could entice the would-be scouts here on HF and help people get more educated about players (prospects section of HF is just awful with people giving opinions of players they've never seen).

Teams actually communicating more than -not at all- would be nice too. Why doesn't every single team have the roster for the game 30 minutes before its starting available online on an easy to find place? Teams are shrouded in secrecy if you're not an insider of any kind. If teams want to be "The big show in town" on a friday night then they have to act like it and not some 90s relics who can't into internet.

The Attack tweets their lineup pregame. I find many teams do. Not sure about your Storm

 

[OMG67]

Ok now let’s open s real can of worms here. Which 2 or 4 teams would everyone agree on contracting.....give reasons if you can? This should be interesting. Lol All in good fun though please.

My List:

1> Ottawa 67’s. A once storied franchise has lost its way and disconnected with its loyal fanbase. Attendance is horrible and many tickets are free-bees to Kids. They have not been competitive for a Championship in many years. Their parent company is focused on the Red Blacks. With the downturn for the Senators for attendance, they have resorted to discounted tickets and those prices compare favourably to the 67’s tickets. It will be a long hard road for the 67’s to find their way back and I highly doubt they get there. The GTA issue has spread to another big city in Ottawa.

2> Flint Firebirds. The team is already operated by the league and there seems to be no one interested in buying the team. This should be an easy one if you are looking at contraction.

3> Sarnia Sting. I’m not sure if things have rebounded over the last few years but I know they were in a little trouble recently. If that is still the case, they would be the next best team to look at. Dwindling attendance, lack of support from the business community, and a small town really hurt the Sting. Again, I may be off base but if I had to pick a team, this is the #3.

4> Mississauga Steelheads. Quite likely this should be team #3 but I have to give them a little break with their trip to the Finals last year. Poor attendance and simply put, no one in the GTA really cares about Junior hockey enough to prop up a franchise.

Those are my four teams.

 

[OSA]

My List:

1> Ottawa 67’s. A once storied franchise has lost its way and disconnected with its loyal fanbase. Attendance is horrible and many tickets are free-bees to Kids. They have not been competitive for a Championship in many years. Their parent company is focused on the Red Blacks. With the downturn for the Senators for attendance, they have resorted to discounted tickets and those prices compare favourably to the 67’s tickets. It will be a long hard road for the 67’s to find their way back and I highly doubt they get there. The GTA issue has spread to another big city in Ottawa.
.

Bold prediction:

In a few years it will be the Belleville 67's and the Ottawa AHL Senators


I disagree with Sarnia. They have had great support in the past but have had some truly awful management (and luck) for a long time. They're sort of the Kingston of the West.

I think the situation in North Bay is pretty concerning. A fan base that, unlike Sarnia, has experienced success and now, after a few down seasons (welcome to junior hockey for most teams), attendance is down to the low 2,000's.

I've always been a supporter of a team in Mississauga; it's a great building, it gives the OHL a presence in the GTA and it's easy for me to get to lol. But since almost all of the tv coverage is gone and there are still seas of empty seats it is abundantly clear that no one gives a damn about them. Unfortunately, I think the OHL's time in Mississauga is coming to a close.

I'm going to throw Hamilton onto the list of possibilities as well. We have season tickets through our company, but I recently discovered that children are the exact same price as adults when I took my son's friend with us. Without season tickets, the cost would be $66 in tickets for me and two 4 year olds, plus $10 to park. Rediculous! Im sure the costs are sizable for such an enormous building but the arena is virtually empty on game days.

 

[digiblader]

Bold prediction:

In a few years it will be the Belleville 67's and the Ottawa AHL Senators


I disagree with Sarnia. They have had great support in the past but have had some truly awful management (and luck) for a long time. They're sort of the Kingston of the West.

I think the situation in North Bay is pretty concerning. A fan base that, unlike Sarnia, has experienced success and now, after a few down seasons (welcome to junior hockey for most teams), attendance is down to the low 2,000's.

I've always been a supporter of a team in Mississauga; it's a great building, it gives the OHL a presence in the GTA and it's easy for me to get to lol. But since almost all of the tv coverage is gone and there are still seas of empty seats it is abundantly clear that no one gives a damn about them. Unfortunately, I think the OHL's time in Mississauga is coming to a close.

I'm going to throw Hamilton onto the list of possibilities as well. We have season tickets through our company, but I recently discovered that children are the exact same price as adults when I took my son's friend with us. Without season tickets, the cost would be $66 in tickets for me and two 4 year olds, plus $10 to park. Rediculous! Im sure the costs are sizable for such an enormous building but the arena is virtually empty on game days.

Belleville's deal is 8 years with a option for 5 more. It's going to be a very long wait. And I imagine the league wants to keep a team in Ottawa, especially considering the travel issues in Ottawa's division in the OHL right now with Hamilton still in the same division, as reorganization of the divisions still hasn't happened, likely because Branch is expecting one of the Bulldogs or Steelheads to relocate..

As for Hamilton, I agree--they have to be the favorite for relocation after this season (expiring lease and substandard arena that needs tens to hundreds of millions in renovations--the same reason they left Belleville previously, not willing to wait for renos that were planned for 2017, which have just been completed for the AHL Sens--and they DO have an HD scoreboard now, unlike Hamilton, which cost the Bulldogs their Memorial Cup bid).

Missisauga as well.. but Branch will try everything to keep a team in Toronto, and considering the poor condition of FirstOntario Centre, Hamilton is likely to be the odd man out. Knowing Branch wants a team in Buffalo, NY(their pre-season showcase may have dropped hints). someone, either Hamilton or Mississauga, is likely to end up there..

Don't see North Bay moving--most of the low attendance may be due to crappy teams (they missed the playoffs last season).. it'll rebound if they start winning again.

 

[three dog night]

Still popular inNiagra 5,260 tonight going against the Leafs And the World Series.

 

[jellybeans]

Good point. At least blackout the game for the home team. Also $8.00 plus beer and expensive concessions don't help either. When you think about it bringing the family is anything but affordable for many. I have been thinking the same thing about attendance though and I too remember a much more intense league where the Wolves regularly drew over 4000 and were among the league leaders. At this point there are still many freebies going around, such that I wonder whether it's truly worth renewing my season tickets next year. Of course the Wolves are very likely to be more competitive so freebies may be in shorter supply. Also there is the aggravation of essentially panhandling for a ticket.

Sudbury had good attendance before the Burguess fiasco and now the $$$$ you have to spend to go to a game with your family is crazy and i dont even drink beer.

 

[jellybeans]

I go watch 4 or 5 games a year in Rouyn noranda quebec and they charge my 12 year old a big 0 the concession are actually decent in price so for less then 20 bucks i can watch a good hockey game.

 

[Nabru]

There are a bunch of good posts here. As another poster mentioned, re-marketing your brand as a game of speed and skill is perfectly fine if you call all of the interference and stick penalties. In all my years of playing and watching hockey, I’ve never seen one game where the rule book is actually followed to a tee.

I don’t care that there is no fighting but I wish there was more body contact.

If they don’t have the insane prices in the Q that they do in the O, there is no reason why the O needs to with most teams being relatively close to each other (with obvious exceptions).

 

[ScoresFromCentre]

I say this with a lot of love for our London posters and a ton of respect for the Hunters and the way they run their team, but some of this may be a London Effect. Nine of the 32 contending seasons that I dredged up with my contention metric were London seasons, and they grossly outpaced the league in expected championships (3.66 vs. a median of 0.41) since 2004-05. It's not all on London, of course, but I wonder if Branch made the wrong play. Raising the overall talent level in the league but concentrating a lot of it in just a couple teams might bring in a couple more casual fans, but I think it's hurt the league in a lot of its long-time core markets.

Conduct a league-wide survey and I expect you'd find most fans are dissatisfied with their team's performance, even setting aside all of the off-ice and economic factors mentioned. The Kitchener topic is a disillusioned wasteland. Ditto the Windsor topic from the 2011 off-season through to last year's playoffs. Plymouth and Belleville lost their teams. Barrie keeps underwhelming in the playoffs. Kingston flamed out in their one year of contention. Guelph followed up a historic season by selling too late and festering in the basement for a couple years. Even Erie fell short repeatedly in the playoffs after a decade of ineptitude before finally breaking through last year. We have a system where about four teams contend each year, and one of them is London. That leaves three contender spots each year to distribute to the other 19 teams! Non-London teams have contended, on average, once every six or seven years. That's insane.

Perhaps this says more about the modern attention span than it does the league itself, but it seems to me that team performance is a problem in all but a few cities, and I think that's worth keeping in mind.

 

[cupcrazyman]

It’s really not that affordable for the general admission fan anymore. It’s still not a bad deal for STH, but the price is getting up there even for them.

And the talent you spoke of isn’t in the league at the moment for a few reasons.

In Sarnia the local paper ran an auction with several Sting packages available.I was able to win an auction & my 34 game flex pass saving about 30% off the face value.If the box office price bothers fans,maybe they could use this format to get cheaper tickets.Sarnia also has $6 kids tickets for sevearal games each season.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Ottawa is really feeling the effects apparently. Their owner Jeff Hunt makes an interesting comment about $9.50 beer and concession prices in general being too high.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ate-their-history-amidst-an-attendance-crisis

Beer prices, not the score
For one, winning isn’t as important as people think. Especially in junior hockey, which, for most, is a family outing. A hometown win is a bonus. The 67’s are in bounce-back mode after some lean years.
Ticket price isn’t a big factor. Seats are affordable (as little as $15). But concession prices can be annoying. Hunt the sports consumer gets this. If he had his way, he would bring in “street pricing” on concessions.
“You’ll pay an extra $10 for a ticket,” Hunt says, “but $9.50 for a beer (bleeping) pisses you off.”
He thinks pro sports will be forced to go this way, if they are to lure fans in the future.
“The tipping point on concessions has been exceeded,” he says.

Winning isn't important ?

 

[cupcrazyman]

Which came first, that $9.50 tall boy or the fool that was willing to pay for it & then complain about the cost ?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Sudbury had good attendance before the Burguess fiasco and now the $$$$ you have to spend to go to a game with your family is crazy and i dont even drink beer.

I know man and I agree. Though I will argue there is no fan base as rabid and hungry for a winner, just watch if things continue on the upswing and we finally get one again how the attendance goes up.

As far as beer, I could just kick myself for paying those prices. Going to absolutely have to limit myself to one at the most as it's robbery. Fact is the OHL is not affordable family entertainment. Worse is the tamed and watered down product. I'm a long time OHL watcher and man have things changed. This used to be a tough, intimidating league but I guess those days are gone as the kids are so much softer and more coddled these days. It probably is just a trickle down effect from the NHL clamping down and the reduction in the fighting. Finally, why bother to go to the arena (unless your'e a die hard in which case a televised game can never match a live one) when you can watch it on tv. This is definitely a factor as well. How has it helped the league?

 

[hardclimate]

I agree with the previous comments about affordability and value for money. In a small market like North Bay, a typical walk-up family of four lays out $73 for home game tickets (two adults @$21 + two 12-and-unders @$15.50) Parking is free but when you add a program, 50-50 tickets and some concession things, (and avoid the souvenir store) it’s easy to spend about $100 or more. This October the Battalion had two home games per week for three straight weeks. It would be a splurge for some families to attend one home game let alone six. Also, consider that this team failed to make the playoffs last year and currently sits in last place in it’s division. With Cogeco broadcasting all home games in this area, it’s not hard to see why recent attendance numbers have been low. The marketing and promotions staff for this club needs a wake-up call or perhaps replacement. As every U.S. minor league baseball team from A to AAA has learned, marketing and promotions are the lifeblood of a small market. They employ all types of wacky promotions with each home game having a promotion or theme of some kind like giveaway items, college student specials, live entertainment, intermission guests, Elvis night, Star Wars night etc. and the concessions join in with targeted specials like dollar popcorn, dollar soft drinks and family combo deals. While winning records help a lot, small markets can’t count on them .

 

[IcemanTBI]

Interesting article regarding declining attendance. I know this is from a soo point of view but lots can be attributed to other OHL markets.

https://saultonline.com/2017/11/attendance-seems-low-this-year-2-many-empty-seats/

 

[dogfan]

Lycanthrope asked how has TV helped the league so I thought I’d share a story from IceDogs owner Bill Burke. I was talking to him about having the games on television and he told me that in the beginning in Niagara the first game sold out. After that they had a month were the couldn’t draw more the a couple thousand. Then things really started to pick up, he asked a couple fans what made them buy tickets and they all said they saw the games on TV and had to see it live. Years later they are doing very well in a new 5000 seat arena. A lot of that has to do with television.
Also on that note, I looked at the top teams in attendance on hockey dB and strangely enough if you compare that to the better broadcasts in the league it matches up well.
London, Kitchener, Niagara, Oshawa and Windsor are the top five over the last few years and in my opinion also the top five in broadcasts.
So, to answer 5he question what has television done, I’d say a lot.
But that’s just my opinion.

 

[OSMike]

I agree with the previous comments about affordability and value for money. In a small market like North Bay, a typical walk-up family of four lays out $73 for home game tickets (two adults @$21 + two 12-and-unders @$15.50)

The Attack do it right by only charging $11 for 2-13 years old. That helps get the familys out. It's 1/2 an adult. $15.50 is too much. The Attack also aren't too hung up on you bringing in a bottle of water etc. This year was my first year that my daughter was old enough to get some concession goodies. I got my daughter a small popcorn and 2 licorce for $4. I was a bit shocked I was thinking it would be > $5. I brought her a water and some other snacks from home. The Attack are the only ticket in town and they could charge more but I think they do a good job of understanding what people will pay.

I will also say the last 3 years the Attack have really done a great job with "Attack TV" putting up video interviews before and after the game, highlights of the week, etc also being very active on Twitter and the net in general. Shaun Bisson has really done a great job for them there.