Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

sr edler

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Hunter did visit Turgeon in the hospital though to apologize.
Do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting it, but it seems....off. Especially in the playoffs. I'd never heard this before.

When I read this I visualized that scene from No Country for Old Men where Woody Harrelson's character is visiting Josh Brolin's character in a hospital with flowers. I can totally see Dale Hunter doing the same thing.

screen-shot-2018-03-27-at-12-07-39.png
 

Newsworthy

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Because he was Eberle in an era where there was a lot more scoring

Huh?
He was nothing like Eberle. They don't even play the same position. As far as avoiding contact/softness Turgeon was in a category of his own. But his skill level was so much greater.

I think he is a borderline HOF player but if doesn't get in neither should Mogilny because Turgeon was the better player.
Islanders made a very bad trade but its possible the Habs trade was even worse.
I think Pierre was very underrated and perhaps my favorite Islander ever.
 
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Newsworthy

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i could see him maybe getting in in a weak year but even then i'd say its unlikely

great career but nothing really stands out. no hardware either. didn't leave the bench during piestany either which made him pretty unpopular
Kariya got in and his career was cut short because of injury. Same with Lindros so it's possible Sneeky Pete could slide in.
 
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TheMoreYouKnow

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Turgeon is seen as a p***y (female genital). In the NHL that's the worst sin ever. I don't think any player type gets less respect than those guys do. The borderline useless 4th line energy guy who sticks for like half a season gets more respect. Turgeon is a good trial case for defining the line where scoring prowess can outweigh perceived softness because he's clearly not over it in spite of the points he amassed. You basically need to be an Art Ross kinda guy to get past it.
 

Newsworthy

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I'd say during his career Turgeon was one of the top 16-18 forwards . I'd have him behind Gretzky, Jagr, Lemieux, Messier, Francis, Sakic, Forsberg, Hull for sure. I think he ranks with Sundin, Lafontaine, Modano, Recchi. Selanne, Oates, Gilmour, Robitaille, Shanahan, Fedorov, Andreychuk, Roenick, Nieuwendyk, Anderson, Kariya. Some of these guys don't completely overlap Turgeon perfectly but it is a rough gauge. All of these guys are HOFers sans Roenick and a great majority of them first ballot guys.

I know point shares has it detractors but I don't think it over or under values Turgeon either way and gives a good ballpark type of ranking. Here's some contemporary forwards.

1. Wayne Gretzky* 1979-99 251.01
4. Jaromir Jagr 1990-18 216.48
21. Mario Lemieux* 1984-06 167.90
22. Joe Sakic* 1988-09 167.83
24. Steve Yzerman* 1983-06 166.66
27. Mark Messier* 1979-04 160.45
32. Brett Hull 154.36
36. Ron Francis* 1981-04 149.48
38. Brendan Shanahan* 1987-09 147.96
39. Mark Recchi* 1988-11 147.53
42. Mike Modano* 1989-11 144.88
44. Mats Sundin* 1990-09 144.41
54. Luc Robitaille* 1986-06 138.65
59. Pierre Turgeon 1987-07 134.34
61. Daniel Alfredsson 1995-14 133.64
72. Jeremy Roenick 1988-09 125.77
73. Sergei Fedorov* 1990-09 125.59
76. Keith Tkachuk 1991-10 125.13
78. Patrik Elias 1995-16 124.70
79. Dave Andreychuk* 1982-06 124.59
91. Joe Nieuwendyk* 1986-07 120.05
94. Doug Gilmour* 1983-03 118.71
99. Adam Oates* 1985-04 117.07
109. Dale Hawerchuk* 1981-97 112.11
112. Alexander Mogilny 1989-06 111.50
119. Theoren Fleury 1988-03 110.27
122. Paul Kariya* 1994-10 109.33

My Best-Carey
Weird you didn't mention Yzerman since I always compared Turgeon to him.
 

sr edler

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Turgeon was selected to the All Star team five times. 1990, 1993, 1994, 1996, and 2000.

You didn't even click the link? You and that other poster aren't talking about the same thing. It's deemed more prestigious to be picked for the end season 1st or 2nd All Star teams, because it's only two (2) spots for each position. It's not really a team though, but a line-up, so perhaps it's the naming of it confusing people.

You know how many centers make an All-Star game, right? I haven't watched an All-Star game since Mike Gartner scored 4 or something goals in the early 90s and won man of the match honors, but I would guess it's at least (or around) 8 since both teams should roll 4 lines. They even switch goalies each period.

Mike Komisarek made the All-Star game once. Pierre Turgeon's obviously a much better player but All-Star games really isn't a very relevant benchmark when comparing players within the same stratosphere, especially not lately. Ovechkin last season took a one game suspension because he deemed it too much of a negative going to the All-Star game.

All-Star games historically has its roots in benefit games. The first one was held by the ECAHA on January 2 1908 to raise money for Hod Stuart's widow and two children after Stuart had died in a (very male-ish type of) diving accident. The teams playing each other were the Montreal Wanderers (Stuart's last club) and an ECAHA "All-Star" line-up. Grover Sargent, Ed Hogan, Rod Kennedy and Joe Power made that All-Star team.

Sargent, Hogan, Kennedy and Power aren't historically significant players.

Later on (in the 1930s) I think All-Star games were also played because of Charlie Gardiner (died) and Ace Bailey (Eddie Shore incident).


(I blame potential mistakes in the text on auto-correct)
 

sr edler

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I can add that post-season All-Star team selections predates the 1930s NHL, as many here obviously already knows, although in pretty unofficial contexts. In the PCHA lacrosse playing referee Mickey Ion used to pick All-Star teams after each season, which were published in the papers. If I'm not remembering it incorrectly Pete Muldoon did the same (perhaps occasionally), and also Dick Irvin.


There was an All-Star games series played between the West (PCHA) and the East (NHA) in 1912 (in Denman Arena, Vancouver and in Victoria Arena on Vancouver Island). It was arranged by old time Montreal buddies Lester Patrick (West) and Art Ross (East). The first two games, played under western 7 man rules, were won decisively by the West 10-4 and 8-2. A third and final game was played under eastern 6 man rules and the Eastern team won a close game 6-5.

Western team roster: Hugh Lehman (New Westminster), Frank Patrick (Vancouver), Ernie “Moose” Johnson (New Westminster), Newsy Lalonde (Vancouver), Tommy Dunderdale (Victoria Senators), Harry Hyland (New Westminster), Ran McDonald (New Westminster) and spares Lester Patrick (Victoria Senators) and Jimmy Gardner (New Westminster)

normal.png


^ Eastern All-Star team in 1912. Top row, from left: Sprague Cleghorn (Montreal Wanderers), Hamby Shore (Ottawa Senators), Art Ross (Montreal Wanderers), Skene Ronan (Ottawa Senators), Paddy Moran (Quebec HC), Odie Cleghorn (Montreal Wanderers). Bottom row, from left: Jack McDonald (Quebec HC), Fred "Cyclone" Taylor (Ottawa Senators), Jack Darragh (Ottawa Senators), Joe Malone (Quebec HC).
 
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decma

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Turgeon was NEVER an all star.

And neither were Federko, Francis, Gilmour, Nieuwendyk or Stastny.

Fedorov, Hawerchuk, Lafontaine, Modano, Oates, Ratelle, Savard, Sittler, and Yzerman each only had one all-star selection.
 

streitz

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And neither were Federko, Francis, Gilmour, Nieuwendyk or Stastny.

Fedorov, Hawerchuk, Lafontaine, Modano, Oates, Ratelle, Savard, Sittler, and Yzerman each only had one all-star selection.


I don't care about any of that. I'm pointing out that Turgeon was never an all star and saying he was is LYING.


FYI all those guys were better then Turgeon, or if they were less skilled they made up for it in other areas (Nieuwendyk).
 

streitz

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1993, 1994, 1996


That's all star GAME not a league all star. Do you guys not understand how the NHL works? I seriously don't understand how hockey fans can confuse the two.


Chris Nilan was named to the all star team in 90-91 by Milbury, was he an allstar aswell? John Scott? Lol.


NHL All-Star Team - Wikipedia <- These are NHL all stars. Anyone who confuses the two is just going on my ignore list at this point.
 

Price is Wright

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That's all star GAME not a league all star. Do you guys not understand how the NHL works? I seriously don't understand how hockey fans can confuse the two.


Chris Nilan was named to the all star team in 90-91 by Milbury, was he an allstar aswell? John Scott? Lol.


NHL All-Star Team - Wikipedia <- These are NHL all stars. Anyone who confuses the two is just going on my ignore list at this point.

That's a fault of the NHL for confusing terminology. All-Star game and All-Star nomination.

Personally I consider Turgeon the gatekeeper of the HOF along with Damphousse. You need to have better careers than them to get in.
 

streitz

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That's a fault of the NHL for confusing terminology. All-Star game and All-Star nomination.

Personally I consider Turgeon the gatekeeper of the HOF along with Damphousse. You need to have better careers than them to get in.


As much as I disliked Turgeon there's worse players then him in already. The HHOF has become something of a participation award club. I think everyone with 1000 points will be in within 20 years.
 
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Price is Wright

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As much as I disliked Turgeon there's worse players then him in already. The HHOF has become something of a participation award club. I think everyone with 1000 points will be in within 20 years.

I'm the opposite. I loved Turgeon, but he's an 8/10 player. The Hall should be for 9's and 10's.

There will always be players I'll consider questionable for a HOF induction in any sport, but I don't think the hockey hall of fame has reached WWE Hall of Fame levels or anything yet. I'll change my tune on that if Ryan Smith and his 0.6 PPG gets in.
 
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Newsworthy

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You didn't even click the link? You and that other poster aren't talking about the same thing. It's deemed more prestigious to be picked for the end season 1st or 2nd All Star teams, because it's only two (2) spots for each position. It's not really a team though, but a line-up, so perhaps it's the naming of it confusing people.

You know how many centers make an All-Star game, right? I haven't watched an All-Star game since Mike Gartner scored 4 or something goals in the early 90s and won man of the match honors, but I would guess it's at least (or around) 8 since both teams should roll 4 lines. They even switch goalies each period.

Mike Komisarek made the All-Star game once. Pierre Turgeon's obviously a much better player but All-Star games really isn't a very relevant benchmark when comparing players within the same stratosphere, especially not lately. Ovechkin last season took a one game suspension because he deemed it too much of a negative going to the All-Star game.

All-Star games historically has its roots in benefit games. The first one was held by the ECAHA on January 2 1908 to raise money for Hod Stuart's widow and two children after Stuart had died in a (very male-ish type of) diving accident. The teams playing each other were the Montreal Wanderers (Stuart's last club) and an ECAHA "All-Star" line-up. Grover Sargent, Ed Hogan, Rod Kennedy and Joe Power made that All-Star team.

Sargent, Hogan, Kennedy and Power aren't historically significant players.

Later on (in the 1930s) I think All-Star games were also played because of Charlie Gardiner (died) and Ace Bailey (Eddie Shore incident).


(I blame potential mistakes in the text on auto-correct)

All star selections prove little but he was a terrific offensive talent. A step or two below LaFontaine and Yzerman but he also played in a special era. My favorite hockey era in fact. His lack of defense and playoff resume really hurt him.
The fact that Turgeon played at the same time as Lemieux, Yzerman, Wayne, Oates, Francis, LaFontaine, Sakic, Sundin, Gilmour, Janney, Roenick and a few other HOF "Centers" probably hurts his chances.
His best year when he scored 58 goals and had 132 points and wasn't even a second team All Star would Trump any player today. He was tied for fifth in scoring. Four centers including Mario all of which are Hall of Famers were ahead of him in scoring. Pierre was amazing in 1992-93 season but Patty was even better. That same year Turgeon was in the same class as Yzerman. In fact 12 of the top 20 scorers that year are Hall of Famers including eight of the top 10.
If he did that consistently than yeah he should be a shoo in. Instead he trailed off considerably after that and didn't win anything of team or self importance.
Still the likes of Housley give hope to players like Mogilny, Turgeon, Roenick, Zubov Etc.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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What a coward. He should be ashamed of himself.

I don’t care how soft you are... when every last man comes off both benches - you do too. ESPECIALLY when wearing your country’s colors.

I don’t think that’s really the entire reason, but he’s a rodent in my book.

Yeah the Canadians should have let their friends/teammates get beaten up 2-3 on 1 because of sensitive European hockey. I'm not going to pretend Canada never played goon hockey but in 1987 the Russians left the bench first. Simple, you defend your teammates.


Tournament was a joke then, Turgeon was rightfully blackballed afterward.

But they didn’t.



You realize he left one of his teammates out there to be double-teamed, right? How could anyone be okay with that? At least go out there and bear-hug somebody... When you’re part of a team, you’re supposed to stick together and defend each other. To me, he cared nothing for his teammates. What did they think of his not getting involved?


The same can be said for all of those players.



Maybe I feel this way because I grew up in the 1980s, but I was raised with a love of country and a sense of patriotism. If I were to suit up for my country in any capacity doing anything, I would give my utmost effort to make sure we came out on top.

A team - any team - should be a brotherhood and you should ALWAYS have your brother’s back no matter what. Not everyone gets that, I guess. I don’t know you from Adam, but if we were teammates in a hockey tournament and everyone left both benches, you better believe that I would come to your defense if I saw you getting pummeled by two opposing players. Even if I didn’t like you personally. It’s a brotherhood, not a buddyhood.

Pierre Turgeon refused to stand with his brothers, and it disgusts me. He may have done what he thought was right, but it wasn’t. It was shameful, and cowardly. I’m not even Canadian and I’m ashamed of him.

i am the last person to beat my chest about god and country but i agree with you two about turgeon.

two pieces of context that i am not 100% about--

according to the soviet team, noted pacifist evgeni davydov was the first to leave the bench because he saw his teammate, valeri zelepukin, getting tooled by mike keane. zelepukin had a broken shoulder and couldn't defend himself. mike keane is one of the great middleweight fighters in hockey history.

i'm not 100% on this because in his book gare joyce doesn't believe the story about zelepukin's shoulder and goes pretty micro in trying to disprove it, but it seems legit to me. here it is coming out of sergei fedorov's mouth.

the second piece is two soviet players tag-teaming stephane roy, which definitely did happen, one of them ending up kicking him in the face while the other held him down. the part that i'm pretty sure of, but can't prove is there's this famous quote where an unnamed montreal canadiens star says about pierre turgeon, "you'll never win when your captain has balls the size of snow peas." the quote is anonymous but who else could it be? stephane roy was patrick roy's brother.

all to say, everyone else knew what to do. you see a teammate in an unfair situation, you do something. if everyone else is out there you grab and you're not a fighter you grab another guy who doesn't really want to go and hold on to him. davydov knew this, and he was one of the most passive players i've ever seen.

i mean i get that turgeon was eighteen and it's not fair to hold what a guy to what he did when he was eighteen for the rest of his life, but it still confounds me. what did he think he was going to do, play out the rest of the game one-on-zero after the brawl ended?

that said, i don't really believe any of this has anything to do with turgeon not being in the hall of fame. he just was lacking something, a cup, an award, a memorable series, hell a memorable moment, something that would elevate him over the line.
 

The Panther

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His best year when he scored 58 goals and had 132 points and wasn't even a second team All Star would Trump any player today. He was tied for fifth in scoring. Four centers including Mario all of which are Hall of Famers were ahead of him in scoring.
Yeah, I just don't see it. 1992-93 was the "easiest" season ever for top-line scorers to rack up 100 points. Even if we waive Mario as being superhuman that season, it leaves Turgeon as 4th in 1993 (and 7th in 1990, or 5th if you waive Gretzky and Lemieux).

So, a 4th place scoring finish and a 5th place scoring finish. So, that equates him with Mats Sundin in scoring terms. But Sundin was a respected team leader, a franchise player for 12 straight seasons, a strong two-way player, a strong physical presence, and an international hockey stud with a loaded resume.

All Turgeon has is his 4th and 5th place finishes in scoring (which were really 5th and 7th). It's not enough.
 

frisco

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All star selections prove little but he was a terrific offensive talent. A step or two below LaFontaine and Yzerman but he also played in a special era. My favorite hockey era in fact. His lack of defense and playoff resume really hurt him.
I don't know if Lafontaine was really better than Turgeon playoff wise. Lafontaine (63 points in 69 games) vs. Turgeon (97 points in 109). It is hard to say that Lafontaine was clearly better physically or defensively, either.

My Best-Carey
 
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frisco

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Top ten points/game finishes for selected players:

Turgeon-5
LaFontaine-3
Sundin-1
Kariya-3
Hawerchuk-2
Robitaille-3
Goulet-5
Nicholls-2
Bure-4
Datsyuk-3
Gilmour-3
Francis-4
Nieuwendyk-0
Roenick-2
Alfredsson-3
Hossa-2
Shanahan-0
Modano-1
Tkachuk-1.
Recchi-3

My Best-Carey
 
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decma

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Top ten points/game finishes for selected players:

Turgeon-5
LaFontaine-3
Sundin-1
Kariya-3
Hawerchuk-2
Robitaille-3
Goulet-5
Nicholls-2
Bure-4
Datsyuk-3
Gilmour-3
Francis-4
Nieuwendyk-0
Roenick-2
Alfredsson-3
Hossa-2
Shanahan-0
Modano-1
Tkachuk-1.
Recchi-3

My Best-Carey


And to address the posts regarding his lack of leadership, defense, etc., I'll reiterate what I posted a couple years ago:

As much as it may be obvious to some that Turgeon lacked all of those things, he was noted for his defense, hard work, character, and leadership at various times in his career.
E.g.,

Montreal Gazette, October 6, 1988:
"He's going to be a star in this league," Sator said yesterday. "He worked very hard - both on and off the ice during the off-season. He has one more year of maturation and his command of English is much better now.
"He's got a year under his belt and he's grown into a leadership role. I think he's going to have a banner year this season."
"He's just a tremendous athlete and a tremendous competitor," Sator said.

Edmonton Journal, Feb 22, 1990:
"He's a very talented hockey player," said linemate Dave Andreychuk, who had helpers on both of Turgeon's goals. "He does things with the puck we just shake our heads at."

"People can see he's got great offensive skills. I know that from playing against him," said blueliner Doug Bodger, a former Pittsburgh Penguin.
"We call him Sneaky Pierre the way he goes out there and hides, but he leads out on the ice in other ways.
"He's playing with confidence. He's playing like a leader."

"He's putting in the work and getting back into the defensive end of the game," Andreychuk said.
"You can really see that from the first year. He knows he has to work hard and he's doing it night after night."


Montreal Gazette (Michael Farber), April 7, 1990:
"Turgeon is one of those players who makes everyone around him better."


Vancouver Sun, March 20, 1993
"He's not an outspoken guy. But in his own way, he's become a leader," coach Al Arbour, who has had some great ones, said Friday. "He's a silent leader.
"He has progressed and he's going to keep progressing. Everything we've asked him to do, he's done."

"He's a real team guy," Islander captain Patrick Flatley said. "He's still young, but he's starting to assume a leadership role. Even last year to this year he's taken on more of a leadership role, and I think that progression will continue."


Canadian Press, May 2, 1996 (quoting Tremblay):
"Pierre Turgeon is a great captain. Twice he took the whole team out for dinner on the road. When someone was having trouble, he would go talk to the player. I call that good leadership."


Edmonton Journal, Nov 16, 1999
"It was a great effort," Quenneville said. "He beat the guy to the icing and pretty much got the job done on a second and third effort. It's nice to see him produce again, and he continues to provide a lot of determination."

"He's been great all year, and he's fun to watch out there," McAlpine said. "He's working hard, and he's so skilled. He's been big for us."


Globe and Mail, Nov. 18, 1999:
Simply put, there's an edge to Turgeon's game now, one that emerged during the Stanley Cup playoffs last spring.

"Yeah, I think his play, particularly in that Phoenix series, showed a lot more leadership," said Quenneville


National Post, Jan 15, 2000:
On the eve of last year's NHL playoffs Turgeon asked for an audience with Blues coach Joel Quenneville. He told Quenneville that he wanted more responsibility, to be the guy on the ice in the last minute of the period or last minute of the game, to be the go-to guy.

"It showed that he felt that he had more to offer. And he delivered," Quenville said.

Midway through the Blues' first-round playoff series against the tough Phoenix Coyotes, Turgeon began to reinvent himself in front of his teammates' eyes.

He played tough along the boards. He took the big hits and, after being down 3-1 in the series, the Blues won the series in a heart- stopping seventh game in which Turgeon scored in overtime.

Turgeon continued his fine play in the next round against Dallas. He took a brutal slash from Pat Verbeek and kept the Blues alive in the series with critical playmaking. He added five more points (he had 13 in total), including an overtime winner in Game 4. If not for mediocre goaltending from Grant Fuhr, the Blues may well have upended the eventual Stanley Cup champions.

"He was determined to make the team win," Quenneville said. "That's a sign of the elite players."

You could always count on the points, said Quenneville, "but he raised his game to a higher level."

That brand of play did not disappear with the playoffs. Turgeon scored a handful of goals in one of the first training-camp scrimmages and has not backed off since. He has consistently been in the top three or four scorers this season and will return to the NHL All-Star Game on Feb. 6 in Toronto, his fifth all-star appearance.

His 23 goals and 55 points leads the Blues and marks the 12th consecutive season with at least 20 goals. More significantly, the 30-year-old continues to play the important minutes of St. Louis games. Where he was sometimes hidden from other team's top lines earlier in his career, he is now matched against them. He is a central figure on the power play, of course, but he also kills penalties. He has answered his detractors while becoming a complete player.


I am sure there are also articles out there that say he wasn't a complete player., but I present the examples above to illustrate that there are a lot of opinions out there.


Moving beyond anecdote, is there any real evidence that he was or wasn't a good defensive player? I don't think any advanced stats from his era are readily available, so the best data available might be goals allowed when on the ice.

Black Gold Extractor had a thread on this a week or so ago.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2167377&highlight=

He compared non-PP GA per game for elite scoring forwards (defined as forwards who had top-12 qualifying points per game seasons since expansion).

42 players had at least five top-12 PPG seasons since expansion. Of those 42, Turgeon ranked 6th best in (non PP) goals allowed. This metric compared goals allowed per game by an elite forward in a given season to goals allowed per game by other elite forwards during that season, so league scoring levels are already taken into account. Turgeon was consistently on the ice for fewer goals against per game than other elite scoring forwards.

So he wasn't just a point accumulator. He also prevented goals against at a rate better than the vast majority of other elite scoring forwards.
 

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