Why isn’t Lindros in the HHOF?

[mja]

Also using the Stevens hit as this big example of Lindros's huge inability to keep his head up or be aware, or take a big hit is ridiculous. Lindros played like 500 games of brutal, hard physical hockey. The hit and the couple of other big ones he took did have drastic consequences to his career but.... Stevens is the best open ice hitter... Maybe ever.

It is like remembering Ray Bourque getting schooled by Mario and looking like a pylon and sizing up Ray Bourque's career based largely on that famous play, by the best beating the best at what they did best.

Guy gets caught looking down at the puck twice in a 13-year career and suddenly he always had his head down.

 

[Hobnobs]

Guy gets caught looking down at the puck twice in a 13-year career and suddenly he always had his head down.

Twice?

 

[The Panther]

He may have been on the sidelines in 2001

Ergo, he didn't play. As I said. So my point stands fully.

(Also, my understanding is that a player has to play at least 1 game in the Finals to get a Stanley Cup ring. Is that right? If so, Forsberg has one only.)

but in 2002 he led the playoffs in scoring without playing in the finals.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I was making, with his being on the sidelines in '01 (the point we were just discussing), or with Lindros in general.

 

[Hobnobs]

Ergo, he didn't play. As I said. So my point stands fully.

(Also, my understanding is that a player has to play at least 1 game in the Finals to get a Stanley Cup ring. Is that right? If so, Forsberg has one only.)

I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I was making, with his being on the sidelines in '01 (the point we were just discussing), or with Lindros in general.

Forsberg got a ring in 2001.

 

[The Panther]

Forsberg got a ring in 2001.

Lovely.

And yet, he didn't play in the '01 Finals and the Avs won without him. So, my point stands.

 

[mja]

Twice?

Yes, twice.

Kasparaitis and Stevens.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yes, twice.

Kasparaitis and Stevens.

Todd Gill? You know the concussion he was coming back from when Stevens knocked him out? _He was also caught with his head down more times than that. It has become exaggerated tho.

 

[Hobnobs]

Lovely.

And yet, he didn't play in the '01 Finals and the Avs won without him. So, my point stands.

Wasnt your point that Lindros played for a weaker team and thats why he didnt win anything? Its true that flyers were weaker. Tht doesnt explain why he played so bad. Also doesnt explain why he never won with team canada in his prime.

As I wrote earlier. Fair or unfair Lindros legacy is a egoistic baby who never won anything. Thats the difference between him and the rest of the "losers" like Neely and Dino.

 

[GreatGonzo]

In a season where Lemieux didn't play one game and when Gretzky was A) 35 and B) Obviously wasn't the dominant player he was. Context.

Yes obviously wasn't dominant because he couldn't beat Lemieux, Gretzky, or Jagr in the scoring race. Shame on him!

False.

He may have been on the sidelines in 2001, but in 2002 he led the playoffs in scoring without playing in the finals.

So he won the cup in 2001 because of his performance in 2002?.....

Do you ever proof read? Look I'm a huge Forsberg fan and I have constantly given him the benefit of the doubt that they still would have won with him there, but he didn't play and they still won.

Let's see how far philly gets in '97 without Lindros.

 

[Voight]

Ergo, he didn't play. As I said. So my point stands fully.

(Also, my understanding is that a player has to play at least 1 game in the Finals to get a Stanley Cup ring. Is that right? If so, Forsberg has one only.

Its 41 regular season games, or one game in the finals.

Or in the recent case of Savard, the time can ask/vouch for them. Theres also cases like Carcillo where he was a few games shy of the 41 game threshold/finals games but the Blackhawks got him both times.

 

[Voight]

Yes obviously wasn't dominant because he couldn't beat Lemieux, Gretzky, or Jagr in the scoring race. Shame on him!

Its called context. I.e he would have ZERO awards (except maybe the 2nd AST in 95) if Lemieux played that season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Its called context. I.e he would have ZERO awards (except maybe the 2nd AST in 95) if Lemieux played that season.

But he still has a Hart and Lester B.......

And he was still one of the top centers for a good chunk of his career. Your pulling hairs trying to disprove something that still happened.

 

[Hobnobs]

But he still has a Hart and Lester B.......

And he was still one of the top centers for a good chunk of his career. Your pulling hairs trying to disprove something that still happened.

Define good chunk.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Todd Gill? You know the concussion he was coming back from when Stevens knocked him out? _He was also caught with his head down more times than that. It has become exaggerated tho.

More than that... I was just reading his Wikipedia the other day and he caught at least 6-7 concussions...

It's blatantly obvious Lindros could get away with his head down when he was in juniors being as huge as he was but wasn't able to kick the habit in the NHL, where guys could actually hurt him.

 

[Appleyard]

More than that... I was just reading his Wikipedia the other day and he caught at least 6-7 concussions...

It's blatantly obvious Lindros could get away with his head down when he was in juniors being as huge as he was but wasn't able to kick the habit in the NHL, where guys could actually hurt him.

Tbf his second ever concussion was the Kasparaitis one... in March 1998. His first had been in the OHL in 1990.

He was 25, and had played in over ~400 NHL games at that point, ~75 games for junior and senior national teams, ~130 junior hockey games. From age 15 to 25 overall he played just under 700 total games... with one concussion.

He then went all of 1998-99 with no problems concussion wise.

But in 1999-00 it spiralled quickly out of control... 4 concussions in the space of 6 months, 2 on pretty dirty hits, and the other 2 on hits that would now very likely be illegal due to primary point of contact:

Wiemer gunning for him all game and eventually getting him head into boards while Lindros was already half down on the ice after avoiding another guy gunning for him!
Darryl Shannon's flying elbow.
Hal Gill's hit which was 100% clean by the rules then.
Scott Steven's hit.



The whole 'head down' thing is majorly overplayed.

You would think he skated around with his head down all the time... when he was actually a very upright skater who surveyed the ice well and generally knew where everyone was on ice...

his problem with his head down pertained to corralling a puck once received, everyone looks down when they receive a puck, but he spent more time looking at it once received that he should have.

 

[Hobnobs]

Tbf his second ever concussion was the Kasparaitis one... in March 1998. His first had been in the OHL in 1990.

He was 25, and had played in over ~400 NHL games at that point, ~75 games for junior and senior national teams, ~130 junior hockey games. From age 15 to 25 overall he played just under 700 total games... with one concussion.

He then went all of 1998-99 with no problems concussion wise.

But in 1999-00 it spiralled quickly out of control... 4 concussions in the space of 6 months, 2 on pretty dirty hits, and the other 2 on hits that would now very likely be illegal due to primary point of contact:

Wiemer gunning for him all game and eventually getting him head into boards while Lindros was already half down on the ice after avoiding another guy gunning for him!
Darryl Shannon's flying elbow.
Hal Gill's hit which was 100% clean by the rules then.
Scott Steven's hit.



The whole 'head down' thing is majorly overplayed.

You would think he skated around with his head down all the time... when he was actually a very upright skater who surveyed the ice well and generally knew where everyone was on ice...

his problem with his head down pertained to corralling a puck once received, everyone looks down when they receive a puck, but he spent more time looking at it once received that he should have.

This is a fair assessment of his on-ice issues. Might also add that people were gunning for him for a reason.

 

[Sens Rule]

This is a fair assessment of his on-ice issues. Might also add that people were gunning for him for a reason.

That is fair. Live by the sword....

 

[Voight]

This is a fair assessment of his on-ice issues. Might also add that people were gunning for him for a reason.

A decent amount of said hits would still be legal now, its the fact he had his head down.

 

[Hobnobs]

A decent amount of said hits would still be legal now, its the fact he had his head down.

Might be true. I havent watched all of them in a while. The stevens hit wouldnt be legal. Coming from the blind side on an unsuspecting player while targetting the head would be a suspension.

 

[Appleyard]

A decent amount of said hits would still be legal now, its the fact he had his head down.

The Wiemer & Shannon hits would have likely been 5+ game suspensions today. Both had intent to injure and were no-where close to clean.

Stevens would have been a suspension but not too long, a few games, say 5 max. Same for Kaspairaitis, both similar hits in a way, primary point of contact was the head, but Lindros had his head down... though Kaspairaitis only briefly touched chin first before hitting body, I think he actually intended to get body but did not. Kaspar likely gets a fine or short suspension, less than Stevens though for sure.

Gill hit was probably the 'cleanest' by todays standards... he got a lot of head, but mainly due to being the bigger man, he got a lot of body as well, did not launch, pretty textbook really. That is probably the only one of the 5 hits that does not gets heavily looked into by the DOPS.


But ofc it should be noted than Lindros threw a lot of very dirty hits as well that would have been suspendable today.

I love a good hit, but so glad that they have took the headshot out of the game... I do not want to see more Lindros, Savard and Kariya's... this league needs all the talent it can get.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Tbf his second ever concussion was the Kasparaitis one... in March 1998. His first had been in the OHL in 1990.

He was 25, and had played in over ~400 NHL games at that point, ~75 games for junior and senior national teams, ~130 junior hockey games. From age 15 to 25 overall he played just under 700 total games... with one concussion.

He then went all of 1998-99 with no problems concussion wise.

But in 1999-00 it spiralled quickly out of control... 4 concussions in the space of 6 months, 2 on pretty dirty hits, and the other 2 on hits that would now very likely be illegal due to primary point of contact:

Wiemer gunning for him all game and eventually getting him head into boards while Lindros was already half down on the ice after avoiding another guy gunning for him!
Darryl Shannon's flying elbow.
Hal Gill's hit which was 100% clean by the rules then.
Scott Steven's hit.



The whole 'head down' thing is majorly overplayed.

You would think he skated around with his head down all the time... when he was actually a very upright skater who surveyed the ice well and generally knew where everyone was on ice...

his problem with his head down pertained to corralling a puck once received, everyone looks down when they receive a puck, but he spent more time looking at it once received that he should have.

Well, he wasn't very vigilant, and I view that as a flaw.... I suppose "skates with his head down" has become a metaphor for his just not paying attention - but he did skate with his head down - especially in juniors...

I think the powers that be will hold this against him considering a lot of HOF'ers were the most aware guys when on the ice...

That, and it's almost like he didn't develop any more after his career in juniors.. It's like he was the same player from 16-17 onward..

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Might be true. I havent watched all of them in a while. The stevens hit wouldnt be legal. Coming from the blind side on an unsuspecting player while targetting the head would be a suspension.

Don't look at the hits, look at random clips of him playing - especially in junior...

It is quite clear he picked that bad habit up by just being the biggest guy on the ice so he could get away with it when he was younger, but once he got to the NHL he was going to get hurt not paying attention...

Who knows how many times he was hit with his head down and he wasn't knocked out, I would imagine a lot.... Like appleyard said - he had 4 concussions in a short span and that was his body just giving up from years of punishment...

Either way IMO, perhaps if Lindros was more vigilant he would have had a longer career.

Every player will be run by a dirty player, however many of them avoid those checks...

 

[Hobnobs]

The Wiemer & Shannon hits would have likely been 5+ game suspensions today. Both had intent to injure and were no-where close to clean.

Stevens would have been a suspension but not too long, a few games, say 5 max. Same for Kaspairaitis, both similar hits in a way, primary point of contact was the head, but Lindros had his head down... though Kaspairaitis only briefly touched chin first before hitting body, I think he actually intended to get body but did not. Kaspar likely gets a fine or short suspension, less than Stevens though for sure.

Gill hit was probably the 'cleanest' by todays standards... he got a lot of head, but mainly due to being the bigger man, he got a lot of body as well, did not launch, pretty textbook really. That is probably the only one of the 5 hits that does not gets heavily looked into by the DOPS.


But ofc it should be noted than Lindros threw a lot of very dirty hits as well that would have been suspendable today.

I love a good hit, but so glad that they have took the headshot out of the game... I do not want to see more Lindros, Savard and Kariya's... this league needs all the talent it can get.

Do you remember if Ottawa ever took revenge for the Dackell hit? I know there were a few threats thrown towards Lindros after that.

 

[Appleyard]

Well, he wasn't very vigilant, and I view that as a flaw.... I suppose "skates with his head down" has become a metaphor for his just not paying attention - but he did skate with his head down - especially in juniors...

I think the powers that be will hold this against him considering a lot of HOF'ers were the most aware guys when on the ice...

That, and it's almost like he didn't develop any more after his career in juniors.. It's like he was the same player from 16-17 onward..

I think the knee injuries slowed his development (both MCL's, one strained multiple times, one torn, before he was 20!)... but he did develop.

His D game got better to the point he was definitely a 'good' defensive player, he was always 'good' on faceoff but he became an all time great on the dot, and he turned himself into a pretty darn good PKer.

I actually think despite his 94-95 season being one many point to as his 'peak', the best he ever was was 1998-99...

as complete a player as he ever was at that point and was neck and neck with Jagr in points (in what ended up being Jagr's best ever season) up until game 60 of the year.

Pacing for over 120 points at the end of February. While playing 3 minutes a night less than Jagr!

He did not have the 'Legion of Doom' then either... Renberg was close to done and did not play much on his line, LeClair was ofc still good, but the other winger was mainly Keith Jones... with Maneluk & Zubrus getting time on that RW too.

Lindros from October 1998 to February 1999 was as dominant a hockey player as you could wish for really.

 

[Appleyard]

Do you remember if Ottawa ever took revenge for the Dackell hit? I know there were a few threats thrown towards Lindros after that.

I cannot remember clearly tbh... but I don't think they did you know.

Looking at the boxscores it would seem they did not either... they played a few days later and nothing happened in that game either.

I have a very vivid memory of a lot of what happened from ~1998-2000 though with Lindros, even though I was like 9 years old, mainly due to the 'Lindros story/controversy/feud' having big segments constantly on TV here whenever the Flyers were on, my Dad used to record every Flyers game we could possibly get over here on VHS, which was maybe ~25-30 games a year (Flyers, Rangers & Maple Leafs seemed to be the teams who got the most games on TV here, like every other game televised involved one of those teams!) + all the playoffs... (I was not allowed to stay up and watch!)

they used to do like 'reviews of the week' on the teams who were playing during intermission/before those games, and we did not get the American/Canadian feed intermission, so they broadcast either these reviews or like mini-documentaries/summaries of events around the NHL in those slots.

In 2000-01 when he was sitting out they broadcast like a 30 minute summary of the Lindros situation and the events leading up to it multiple times... and I must have watched each game maybe ~3 times in the next 5 years and that summary about 15 times!

Sadly my Mum threw out a lot of my VHS's... I had every F1 race from 1995-2003 recorded and every Flyers game (well, every one that was available on TV over here) from 1998-2004 on tape, I went to University and found loads had been thrown as she thought they were crap and we had DVD's now so tapes were useless! When I had kept them and an old TV/Video to watch that stuff over... I had intended to get the tapes all onto digital from like ~2006 onwards, but never got round to it and most were thrown in 2009.

I think if I dug around there may be ~5 games left on VHS somewhere, I know I still have a lot of the Flyers vs Toronto series in 2004, I watched some of that ~2 years ago. I have the Flyers vs Ottawa brawl on VHS as well still! But a lot of the older games I had watched so many times I had boxed them and put them in the loft, instead of in a shelf in my room... and all the VHS from the loft were thrown.

Really sad really! The ~1998-2000 stuff would have been like gold now. Not too many full games you get from the 90's... and I had like ~35% off those Flyers seasons + playoffs in full.