Why is the Norris focused more on offense than defense?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by SSJ3 Lunar, Oct 30, 2018.

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  1. SSJ3 Lunar

    SSJ3 Lunar WWE made me jaded

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    I'm sure this has been brought up before, I'm just wondering why is it that Karlsson or Burns get nominated for the Norris every year over more defensive focused guys like Ekholm? Is it because points are an easier way to determine who is better? Even if it is only offensively?
     
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  2. DJJones

    DJJones Registered User

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    It's easier to look and judge points when you don't watch them play than defense.
     
  3. PatriceBergeronFan

    PatriceBergeronFan Registered User Sponsor

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    Easy to quantify points.
     
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  4. Literally

    Literally Better than you think

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    Because playing in the offensive zone more than the defensive zone is actually a very underrated defensive attribute on HF.
     
  5. NyQuil

    NyQuil Not Steve Yzerman

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    What an original thread. ;)

    Anyway, my standard answer is, the basic skillset is to play defence, so those who are capable of also performing offensively are contributing more than their average colleagues.

    And while people are fond of saying that offensive defencemen are liabilities defensively, the sheer number of minutes that true #1 d-men put up puts that kind of assessment into question IMO.

    Not to mention, the best form of defence is in the other team's zone.

    There are defencemen with offensive skillsets whose minutes need to be managed. These defencemen do not win the Norris trophy.
     
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  6. oXo Cube

    oXo Cube Termite

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    It isn't.

    Ekholm doesn't get nominated because he isn't better than Karlsson or Burns.
     
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  7. TheGoldenGod

    TheGoldenGod Registered User

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    The game is evolving. The puck moving/offense-oriented defenseman are the true game-changers.
     
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  8. bigbuffalo313

    bigbuffalo313 Registered User

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  9. POVERTY

    POVERTY Registered User

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    I still find it silly that there is a separate award for the best defensive forward, yet no award for the best offensive D-man.

    ...Though I guess that would just result in the Norris winner winning two awards instead of one.
     
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  10. gretskidoo

    gretskidoo Registered User

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    Same reason a third line center isn't winning the Hart any time soon.
     
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  11. Anglesmith

    Anglesmith Setting up the play?

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    The best defenceman is the player who plays the position of defenceman and best contributes to his team's success. There is no set formula for what this looks like, but offensive contributions are, and should be, very important to this. You aren't helping your team win if no goals go in while you're on the ice, you're just helping them not lose.
     
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  12. joe dirte

    joe dirte Registered User

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    Because as much as we've come along way, measuring one's defensive prowess is still fairly subjective. A major part of gauging offense is simply looking at points. There is no subjectivity with the number of goals and assists one scored. Historically, defensive prowess had as little as +/-. Now we can measure a lot more, but there are so many stats, it's still very subjective in how you interpret them all.

    And quite frankly, some of the stats are still fairly new to the NHL, and phenomenally inconsistent. Things like takeaways/giveaways/hits, etc, are so inconsistently measured, that using them to compare players between teams is rather fruitless. They're so bad, they become near meaningless. You can maybe use them to see what a player does in relation to his own team, but beyond that, they're really not very good.
     
  13. The Joe Dough

    The Joe Dough Registered User

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  14. Moon Walker

    Moon Walker Registered User

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    because offense is a major role of a defenseman, just as defense is a major role of a forward.

    the best d-man is the d-man who makes the greatest impact in the game - producing offense is necessary to accomplish that
     
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  15. Help

    Help Can I help you?

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    You can have a greater effect on the game with the puck than without it
     
  16. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    Because it is harder to become elite offensively than defensively, even as a d-man. Ekholm may be a poor example, you have to convince voters not only that he should get votes as a shut down d-man, and that he should get votes over PK and Josi. Regardless, voters tend to look for the guy who makes the biggest impact on the ice. Karlsson in the past couple of years made a bigger impact on the ice than nearly anyone in the NHL. Ekholm often did as well, but where he is steady and consistent defensively, guys like Karlsson have the ability to take over games on their own. Basically, and Ekholm type isn't going to win you a game with a single play or shift, but a Karlsson or Burns might.
     
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  17. joe dirte

    joe dirte Registered User

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    completely untrue. a player's play without the puck is equally important as their play with the puck.
     
  18. Trojans86

    Trojans86 Registered User

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    The difference in defensive ability of NHL defensemen is much closer than the difference of offensive ability of NHL defensemen. Some defensemen are amazing offensively and others are horrible so the good ones stand out in a big way and on the contrary nearly all NHL defensemen are pretty decent defensively.

    Another way to look at it is a great offensive defensemen can get 50 more points than an average defensemen (offensively) but weak defensemen isnt going to directly give 50 more goals than an average defensemen over a season.

    Similar situation to why centers are more valuable than wingers. There are a ton of really good wingers out there and it is very hard to find really good centers. The gap between really good center and average center is much greater than the gap between really good winger and average winger.

    Also, puck moving defensemen that are skilled at breaking out and creating chances are hugely valuable to team success.
     
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  19. MrGold

    MrGold Registered User

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    Because there's no defensive stats that are both easy to understand and valuable.
     
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  20. oXo Cube

    oXo Cube Termite

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    Actually there is.

    The traditionalists just don't like them because they also say that Karlsson is the best defender on earth.
     
  21. InglewoodJack

    InglewoodJack Registered User

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    Because it's a lot more impressive to put up 70 pts as a D than it is to be an offensive black hole? It's not like Karlsson or Burns are defensive liabilities- they're very good defenceman who put up offense in ways that no one else really can.
     
  22. IceNeophyte

    IceNeophyte Registered User

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    So use Corsi or +/- instead of points.
     
  23. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    They actually aren't easy to understand well. What's apparent to me is that most people here who think they understand advanced statistics don't, at least not well. The interpretation of these advanced stats are often problematic.
     
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  24. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    And yet, a grinder like Claude Lemieux can win the Conn Smythe.

    If anyone can step up and be of ultimate value in the playoffs, it's probably safe to say the same could theoretically happen in the regular season.
     
  25. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    +/- is the most useless stat in sports. You shouldn't be basing votes off of reading a stat page anyway. If you need to do that, you probably shouldn't be voting.
     

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