Why is the Norris focused more on offense than defense?

[Byron Bitz]

It wasn’t back when Rod Langway won it two years in a row with around 30 points

 

[IceNeophyte]

+/- is the most useless stat in sports.

I argue that when you're looking for defensive defensemen, it's better than points.

 

[Help]

completely untrue. a player's play without the puck is equally important as their play with the puck.

I don't understand, but I'm open to hearing an explanation as to how this works

 

[Filthy Dangles]

completely untrue. a player's play without the puck is equally important as their play with the puck.

If a player is playing without the puck a lot, he probably isn't that good.

A guy like Erik Karlsson who gets knocked for being bad at defense, seems to always have the puck. The premise itself is flawed. A player wouldn't be able to own the puck as much as him he was as bad at defense as people claim. Even if we buy into that claim, the dude always has the pill.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Offense isn't only putting up points and box score stats. Erik Karlsson controls the pace and tempo of the game with puck possession. He's playing defense by playing offense if that makes sense.

 

[HabsQC]

It's even more true with the Selke

 

[triggrman]

If a player is playing without the puck a lot, he probably isn't that good.

A guy like Erik Karlsson who gets knocked for being bad at defense, seems to always have the puck. The premise itself is flawed. A player wouldn't be able to own the puck as much as him he was as bad at defense as people claim. Even if we buy into that claim, the dude always has the pill.

but he doesn't, it might seem that way to some of his fans, but he doesn't, he does spend time in the zone.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

As great as Burns was in his Norris Season vs the Oilers in the playoffs...
Vlasic is the one who limited mcD to 4 points in 6 games (one being an empty netter).
He also did a considerable job limiting Crosby's effectiveness in the finals the year before.

Vlasic would have my vote for Defensive Defensive of the year most years. The dude is an absolute beast.

And maybe San Jose fans can correct me on this, but I find he's every bit as valuable to San Jose's success as Burns was.

 

[IceNeophyte]

I don't understand, but I'm open to hearing an explanation as to how this works

How many times have you seen an odd man rush start, only to fade off to the half board because defenders raced into position? Positioning also stops a rush from happening in the first place, but you can never quantify the plays that were thwarted before they ever started.

Also, keeping a screener off your goalie doesn't require touching the puck.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

but he doesn't, it might seem that way to some of his fans, but he doesn't, he does spend time in the zone.

obviously there was exaggeration in my post....Karlsson like any player, literally does not always have the puck. that's impossible. But a lot more often that not, he and his team does.

my point is, if he was as bad 'defensively' as is purported at times, that could not hold true. because like you said, there's times where he won't have it and will have to get it back.

 

[triggrman]

Actually there is.

The traditionalists just don't like them because they also say that Karlsson is the best defender on earth.

Do they? Last year and this year?

 

[trick9]

And yet, a grinder like Claude Lemieux can win the Conn Smythe.

If anyone can step up and be of ultimate value in the playoffs, it's probably safe to say the same could theoretically happen in the regular season.

28 games (at most) is not the same as 82.

But obviously, anything could happen.

 

[NyQuil]

but he doesn't, it might seem that way to some of his fans, but he doesn't, he does spend time in the zone.

Some of these stories are a year or two old, but they hold more water than your anecdotal observation:

The reigning Norris Trophy winner, and likely first back-to-back winner since Nicklas Lidstrom in 2008, is ripped constantly for being a defensive liability, but that doesn’t hold water here. Erik Karlsson is the second-highest event player in the NHL behind Victor Hedman, spends the second-least amount of time in his defensive zone of the players in this group, has a below-league average turnover rate in the defensive zone, and exits the defensive zone like it’s nothing. Combine this with his offensive ability? Just give him Norris number three now.

Which defencemen are the best at exiting the zone? - Sportsnet.ca

You already know that Erik Karlsson is special, but you may not be aware that he might quite literally be the most “unique” player in hockey right now.

When he’s able to get solid possession of the puck in the Sens D-zone, they’re as good as broken out thanks to his quick first step (to go with all the ones after), his ability to read pressure, his agility, and his puck skills.

Karlsson compiled the most zone entrances with possession among all D-men, and it wasn’t close. His total was 117. The next closest Sens D-man had 22 (Cody Ceci) and the next closest NHL defender in the league was Brian Campbell, who recorded 46 fewer controlled entries over that same time frame (71). P.K. Subban was behind Campbell by a couple, and everyone else was farther in the rearview.

They did well off all those zone entrances too, averaging a shot roughly 70 percent of the time.

In terms of zone exits, Karlsson's 36 percent success rate on touches is also unparalleled. Only Kris Letang (33.2 percent), Keith Yandle (32.2 percent) and Ken Hitchcock's three best puckmovers (Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester, all over 31 percent) are in the same stratosphere, and even then, not really. Karlsson's 7.9 percent turnover rate is a bit high, but the numbers still clearly point to him as the league’s best escapist blueliner.

And finally, Karlsson is also solid when it comes to defending zone entries, as opponents managed just a 54.5 percent carry-in against rate when they targeted him (very good), and he managed a breakup rate above 10 percent (also very good). He's got a good stick, and isn’t the defensive liability he's made out to be.

Unique Team Traits: Hockey's best breakout machine belongs to the Ottawa Senators

And before you start on the fact that these articles are a little old, you were making the same points back then too. I was here.

He spends less time in the zone than most, and there are few if not any who are better at getting it out of the defensive zone and into the offensive zone.

This isn't up for debate.

 

[oXo Cube]

Do they? Last year and this year?

You got me there

Good thing he didn't win the trophy in either of those seasons.

 

[SenzZen]

Why is a player whose passes find their target more valuable than one who dumps the puck in/out?

See how dumb that sounds?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

As great as Burns was in his Norris Season vs the Oilers in the playoffs...
Vlasic is the one who limited mcD to 4 points in 6 games (one being an empty netter).
He also did a considerable job limiting Crosby's effectiveness in the finals the year before.

Vlasic would have my vote for Defensive Defensive of the year most years. The dude is an absolute beast.

And maybe San Jose fans can correct me on this, but I find he's every bit as valuable to San Jose's success as Burns was.

That was one playoff series where Burns did not play well.

Vlasic has never been anywhere near as valuable to his team as Brent Burns or Erik Karlsson.

Do they? Last year and this year?

In this 11 game sample size, probably not, but I believe they actually did say that he was last year.

 

[joe dirte]

If a player is playing without the puck a lot, he probably isn't that good.

A guy like Erik Karlsson who gets knocked for being bad at defense, seems to always have the puck. The premise itself is flawed. A player wouldn't be able to own the puck as much as him he was as bad at defense as people claim. Even if we buy into that claim, the dude always has the pill.

A guy like Erik Karlsson, as you seem to think "always has the puck", his team only has the puck around the 50% mark. And him personally? Probably not far above 10% of the time. It's rare any players have CORSI, which, by the way, includes when ANYONE on the ice with him on his team, has the puck, over 55%.

This idea that if you have a 55% CORSI, it really doesn't matter what you do when you don't have the puck, is so unbelievably short sighted. You can't ignore what a player is doing FORTY FIVE % of the time. That's absurd.

Not to mention, you take possession, and avoid the puck ending up in your own net, mostly due to what you do when you do NOT have the puck.

People who want to ignore what a player does, at best, 45% of the time they are on the ice, because they are doing it 45% of the time, instead of 50% of the time, like other players, are totally out to lunch.

Do you want the player that contributes to his team having the puck more than 50% of the time? Of course. Does that mean you ignore 45% of his play? JFC no. This is one reason why CORSI nuts can't be taken seriously.

 

[Help]

How many times have you seen an odd man rush start, only to fade off to the half board because defenders raced into position? Positioning also stops a rush from happening in the first place, but you can never quantify the plays that were thwarted before they ever started.

Also, keeping a screener off your goalie doesn't require touching the puck.

How many times have you seen a player score a goal? Or set up a goal?

Happens far more often than breaking up a 2-on-1 and has a greater impact on winning!

 

[HSF]

The Norris winners do both offense and defense

Why only focus on defense?

 

[Sureves]

The Norris isn't focused on offense more than defense.

It's focused on who is due.

Karlsson, Doughty, Burns, Hedman, Subban won't win this year I guarantee it.

It will be someone who hasn't won before. Carlson, Josi, Rielly (Toronto factor) would be my bets.

 

[oXo Cube]

In this 11 game sample size, probably not, but I believe they actually did say that he was last year.

Eh, It's pretty hard to argue from a stats perspective that Hedman wasn't a deserving winner last year.

Same thing with Burns in 2017. If he was porous defensively it sure didn't translate into a bunch of goals against.

 

[Agent Zub]

Do you really think Ekholm is a better defenceman than Karlsson?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

A guy like Erik Karlsson, as you seem to think "always has the puck", his team only has the puck around the 50% mark. And him personally? Probably not far above 10% of the time. It's rare any players have CORSI, which, by the way, includes when ANYONE on the ice with him on his team, has the puck, over 55%.

This idea that if you have a 55% CORSI, it really doesn't matter what you do when you don't have the puck, is so unbelievably short sighted. You can't ignore what a player is doing FORTY FIVE % of the time. That's absurd.

Not to mention, you take possession, and avoid the puck ending up in your own net, mostly due to what you do when you do NOT have the puck.

People who want to ignore what a player does, at best, 45% of the time they are on the ice, because they are doing it 45% of the time, instead of 50% of the time, like other players, are totally out to lunch.

Do you want the player that contributes to his team having the puck more than 50% of the time? Of course. Does that mean you ignore 45% of his play? JFC no. This is one reason why CORSI nuts can't be taken seriously.

I am far from a Corsi nut. Corsi is not a proxy for puck possession. Karlsson consistently leads the league in individual possession.

 

[joe dirte]

I am far from a Corsi nut. Corsi is not a proxy for puck possession. Karlsson consistently leads the league in individual possession.

oh? And what is the % of time of that?

I don't even know how, or where, they track that.

 

[StoneHands]

Ask yourself if you would rather have Ekholm on your team or Karlsson. There's your answer.