Why is the blatantly obvious not, well, obvious?

[wgknestrick]

Miss the past few games?

He's a very good goalie who has been languishing in a poor defensive system the past 5 years. If we don't re-sign him, someone else surely will. Now, that being said, I don't want him resigned at 5M+ a year for what he can do. We can get more consistent goaltending cheaper, IMO.

My problem with Fleury is that he is unreliable. He can look great for a few games, then easily misplay the puck or flop around out of position trying to make an acrobatic save. He's getting older and needs to simplify his style if he wants to continue to make the big bucks in the NHL.

We really should make decisions off of 3 games in October (2 of those to non-playoff teams) before we use the last 5 years. My problem with him is he is bad at stopping the puck.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I like to look at the broader picture:

-the biggest factor was the Cup win in '09
-Fleury is still here because of it
-DB was held on for too long because of it
-Eaton/Scuderi were brought back because of it
-vets like Orpik/Adams were given preference because of it

...and so on.

All it really would've took was a smart/savvy hockey mind in the organization to really delve deeper into the problems of the roster and what it would take to start reaching Cup finals again.

Mario got it totally wrong by softening the team after the Islanders debacle as well. BUT things are changing, out with the old and in with the new.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

you want to talk about something obvious, lets talk about marc andre fleury still being a pittsburgh penguin.

the guy is a huge joke and its embarrassing that a supposed contender continues to rely on this guy as their starting goaltender.

how he can fail so horrifically in the playoffs for such a long period of time yet still receive unwavering support is baffling. everyone outside pittsburgh sees it, yet this organization and much of the fanbase think hes a great goalie.

its very obvious hes the weakest link on this team and has been for many years.

down the road when sid/genos prime are long over and largely wasted we will all sit back and wonder why on earth they kept fleury for so long.

They kept him because despite the banter around here, it's difficult to find money goalies. MAF backstopped them to back to back cups. It's not easy to find these guys and he has it in him to be at that level again if he has his head on straight. He's just a ****ing flake. His teammates and the casual fans in Pgh love the guy.

So it's not a big mystery why he is still here.

I honestly think MAF would have had a better career if he was in a place like Boston or LA, where they play highly structured defensive systems. When he stays in the net, doesn't play the puck often, and has sound structure in front of him he is fine.

He just doesn't do well in a fire wagon style. His mental makeup is too Jekyll and Hyde.

 

[Gold Diamond]

They kept him because despite the banter around here, it's difficult to find money goalies. MAF backstopped them to back to back cups. It's not easy to find these guys and he has it in him to be at that level again if he has his head on straight. He's just a ****ing flake. His teammates and the casual fans in Pgh love the guy.

So it's not a big mystery why he is still here.

I honestly think MAF would have had a better career if he was in a place like Boston or LA, where they play highly structured defensive systems. When he stays in the net, doesn't play the puck often, and has sound structure in front of him he is fine.

He just doesn't do well in a fire wagon style. His mental makeup is too Jekyll and Hyde.

QFT x 1000. Thank you so much for saying it much better than I ever could.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Ownership wanted Bylsma gone a year before he went. Shero went to bat for him and went down with that boat with him. And most great organizations so not have mass firings year after year but have a lot of consistency so I can understand the reticence to make changes to a degree. Shero was not the worst GM, had had his tendencies which drove us all nuts, but he did hit on a number of players at a part of the first round where success drafting is rare. He usually got value in trades. Again, I see why ownership may have played this as they did, even as one who was calling for Bylsma's head the loudest and among the longest.

Orpik wasn't going to bring much in return and should have been gone. Niskanen should have been resigned on the cheap when they had the chance or traded that last year. Neither were major errors, but yeah, they both should have been done.

 

[mpp9]

I'd say not committing to a transition year was Shero's biggest blunder next to his inability to bring in longterm solutions to our top 6 for years.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

And I agree with the statements on Fleury.

No, he wouldn't have become the second coming of Lundqvist and Brodeur rolled into one playing for a defense first system. But system certainly played a roll in exacerbating the issues that he had. I never understood how few people talk about how much system plays into what we see from goalies on the ice and their stats.

What is the point of the above?

Namely that simply bringing in a goalie with great stats may not have the results that we hope for if he is going from a defense first system to ours. Philly found that out after overpaying for Ilya Bryzgalov. It is a factor to weigh in the question.

 

[SaintLouHaintBlue]

Fleury's inability to play the puck is an issue, for sure - but there are better goalies than Fleury who suck at playing the puck.

Luongo, Schneider, Reimer, Hedberg - Rask and Lundqvist, are all pretty lousy, to some degree. And especially Quick:



Fleury-esque, no? Quick has only gotten marginally better - he just doesn't really ever need to come out of the net, except for something simple.

I don't really consider it to be that much of a knock against him, if one considers puck handling to be part of the "total goaltending package".
But, if you know you can't play the puck worth a damn, then don't play the puck.
The team, and coaching, could stand to help him out some in that regard.

He is a flake, though, and it shows it's ugly head at some of the worse possible times. He has a lot of talent and athleticism, though, so I have to imagine that he could corral all that if he was dedicated to it.


Goaltending, by nature, is going to be a more inconsistent position than any skater position.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

They kept him because despite the banter around here, it's difficult to find money goalies. MAF backstopped them to back to back cups. It's not easy to find these guys and he has it in him to be at that level again if he has his head on straight. He's just a ****ing flake. His teammates and the casual fans in Pgh love the guy.

So it's not a big mystery why he is still here.

I honestly think MAF would have had a better career if he was in a place like Boston or LA, where they play highly structured defensive systems. When he stays in the net, doesn't play the puck often, and has sound structure in front of him he is fine.

He just doesn't do well in a fire wagon style. His mental makeup is too Jekyll and Hyde.

Very few goaltenders can perform in an unstructured system. We've just been lucky to have one of the few guys who could in Barrasso, and everyone after has been compared to him. His numbers were never great, but he made the big saves, ala Fuhr. That mental makeup is tough to find (and sure seems to have had some impact on his mental state therafter). Aside from Hasek or Cujo, I can't think of too many tenders in recent history that could hold down the fort consistently on run and gun or generally unstructured defensive teams.

Though to be fair, year before last the Pens really didn't play that poorly defensively, and Vokoun was able to slot right in and play well. Hopefully a combination of improved talent and structure on D, and better team defense will settle Fleury down, and by extension the whole team. One of the best things about the current D, now that Scuds has become functional again, is we don't have the Orpik turnover machine back there any more causing constant breakdowns.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Fleury's inability to play the puck is an issue, for sure - but there are better goalies than Fleury who suck at playing the puck.

Luongo, Schneider, Reimer, Hedberg - Rask and Lundqvist, are all pretty lousy, to some degree. And especially Quick:



Fleury-esque, no? Quick has only gotten marginally better - he just doesn't really ever need to come out of the net, except for something simple.

I don't really consider it to be that much of a knock against him, if one considers puck handling to be part of the "total goaltending package".
But, if you know you can't play the puck worth a damn, then don't play the puck.
The team, and coaching, could stand to help him out some in that regard.

He is a flake, though, and it shows it's ugly head at some of the worse possible times. He has a lot of talent and athleticism, though, so I have to imagine that he could corral all that if he was dedicated to it.

Goaltending, by nature, is going to be a more inconsistent position than any skater position.

If you look at some of the buffoonery MAF has pulled in the playoffs, quite a number of those goals have come when he tried to play the puck. Even dating back to juniors, his famous gaffe came when he played the puck.

I think if he would just stay in the damn net or learn to quickly move the puck, it would make an immeasurable difference in his flakiness coming out.

 

[SaintLouHaintBlue]

If you look at some of the buffoonery MAF has pulled in the playoffs, quite a number of those goals have come when he tried to play the puck. Even dating back to juniors, his famous gaffe came when he played the puck.

I think if he would just stay in the damn net or learn to quickly move the puck, it would make an immeasurable difference in his flakiness coming out.

Well, that was kind of the point I was trying to make.
There are better goalies than Fleury who are pretty bad at playing the puck.
So they don't.

Fleury really wants to play that puck when he shouldn't, for some reason. I don't think it's necessary for a goaltender to play the puck very often. Mostly on the powerplay.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Well, that was kind of the point I was trying to make.
There are better goalies than Fleury who are pretty bad at playing the puck.
So they don't.

Fleury really wants to play that puck when he shouldn't, for some reason. I don't think it's necessary for a goaltender to play the puck very often. Mostly on the powerplay.

It's really a simple problem to solve and shouldn't be happening anymore. I have no idea why he has been allowed to play the puck all of these years, but I'm hoping this coaching staff corrects it.

They seem to be on top of things, including fixing the PP, PK, preaching that Letang shoots more, bodies in front, etc. So I'd imagine they are aware of the problems and seeing him not handle the puck as often the last few games gives me hope they are in his ear about it.

I'd like to imagine it went something like "Marc, are you ****ing stupid or just dumb? Don't play the puck.."

 

[Speaking Moistly]

If you look at some of the buffoonery MAF has pulled in the playoffs, quite a number of those goals have come when he tried to play the puck. Even dating back to juniors, his famous gaffe came when he played the puck.

I think if he would just stay in the damn net or learn to quickly move the puck, it would make an immeasurable difference in his flakiness coming out.

It would probably help. When Fleury goes he's gone, so theoretically if you take away the things that make him go he'll be better with the other things and the chance of a meltdown is reduced. Good luck doing it completely or if he starts a game badly.

I think the damage is largely done at this point though.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It would probably help. When Fleury goes he's gone, so theoretically if you take away the things that make him go he'll be better with the other things and the chance of a meltdown is reduced. Good luck doing it completely or if he starts a game badly.

I think the damage is largely done at this point though.

Most goalies don't hit their prime until 30+, so he still can turn this around and become a money goalie again.

Everyone thinks it's easy to find these guys and it's not. TV was a great find, but that isn't typical TBTH. Greiss had a MAF meltdown agt Det and while I thought he played well until the comeback, he was still kicking out juicy rebounds all game.

I'd never bet real money on MAF turning things around, because I don't really believe in him anymore. But a part of me does truly feel he can rebound and find his mojo again. I just don't see the point in beating on the guy when they need him to win a cup. I'd just rather try and stay positive about him.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yeah, I doubt Fleury puts it all together. The thing with him is his athletic ability and highs are so tempting, and he's a likeable person. Fluery is someone I want to root for but I can't. His time as a money goalie vs whatever we want to call it isn't good, he was allowed to flounder for years, he's naturally mentally fragile and his development is what it is. I don't see the point in being positive, tbh. I don't trust him and he's got issues, it's unfortunate.

idek if they need him to win the cup, they need good enough goal tending and that's not exclusive to him. It's just a question of where to get it.

Fleury losing some of his physical ability could be a disaster as he ages.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah, I doubt Fleury puts it all together. The thing with him is his athletic ability and highs are so tempting, and he's a likeable person. Fluery is someone I want to root for but I can't. His time as a money goalie vs whatever we want to call it isn't good, he was allowed to flounder for years, he's naturally mentally fragile and his development is what it is. I don't see the point in being positive, tbh. I don't trust him and he's got issues, it's unfortunate.

idek if they need him to win the cup, they need good enough goal tending and that's not exclusive to him. It's just a question of where to get it.

Fleury losing some of his physical ability could be a disaster as he ages.

MAF may actually be better if he loses some of his physical ability. Then he would maybe focus more on his fundamentals and play within his limits. Either way, that's pretty far down the road barring injury IMHO.

I feel better about their chances this year with MAF than I did last season with DB at the helm. I knew nothing would change and the inevitable was coming. Most of us felt it. Most people feel MAF will **** the bed though as well this year.

I'm just not really in that boat, even if I don't necessarily believe in him.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

MAF may actually be better if he loses some of his physical ability. Then he would maybe focus more on his fundamentals and play within his limits. Either way, that's pretty far down the road barring injury IMHO.

I feel better about their chances this year with MAF than I did last season with DB at the helm. I knew nothing would change and the inevitable was coming. Most of us felt it. Most people feel MAF will **** the bed though as well this year.

I'm just not really in that boat, even if I don't necessarily believe in him.

I think losing some physical ability could either make him focus on fundamentals more or be a disaster because that's his greatest strength and it saves his ass a lot. I lean towards it being bad because I question how much he would focus and if he could make it up doing so. Barring injury with this team...

I feel better about their chances in general without Bylsma. Even if he doesn't **** the bed it's about how much he could be trusted going forward. I really wonder what would have happened if MAF hadn't been left to his own devices with the playoffs meltdowns and struggles for so long.

 

[Zen Arcade]

- And we missed on a lot of players (cough cough) Pesonen.

Totally called Letestu being better than Pesonen.

Honestly though, I think a lot of people who watched WBS rather than just stat watching saw that Pesonen's game wouldn't translate to the NHL. He's just a Finnish Darren Haydar or Jason Krog.

 

[canadianguy77]

Scuds hasnt been bad this year. You can say we dont need him, but he hasnt been bad.

i disagree. He has at least 5 unforced giveaways every game. He panics way too easily. He also puts Despres in precarious positions almost every game because he panics. If Despres were a smaller player he'd probably have a concussion already. When Borts is ready to play I expect Scuderi to sit if MJ is the coach I think he is.

 

[Wes C Addle]

It's really a simple problem to solve and shouldn't be happening anymore. I have no idea why he has been allowed to play the puck all of these years, but I'm hoping this coaching staff corrects it.

They seem to be on top of things, including fixing the PP, PK, preaching that Letang shoots more, bodies in front, etc. So I'd imagine they are aware of the problems and seeing him not handle the puck as often the last few games gives me hope they are in his ear about it.

I'd like to imagine it went something like "Marc, are you ****ing stupid or just dumb? Don't play the puck.."

One of the interviews this past week with MJ actually went contrary to the thought of not playing the puck. I think it might've been after the kings game where he basically said that he wanted MAF to play the puck. I'll see if I can dig it up.

starts around the 2:30 mark

paraphrased

- starting to improve
- likes his decision making with it
- wants him to handle it
- more he gets comfortable with it the better he'll be at it.

[NHL]658500&catid=829[/NHL]

I understand the reasoning, but like most others, I don't see him being able to net more positives outcomes than negatives when handling it. Maybe MJ is paying more lip service than anything, I dunno.

 

[DearDiary]

Dan did well with the roster he was given. The weak bottom 6? Blame Shero. Crosby and Malkin can't score in the playoffs? Blame Shero for not giving them wingers that can create opportunities. You could even blame Pens ownership for having their hands too much in the cookie jar. I'm sure we've all heard about management stopping trades and making Shero their puppet. Recall this years Draft, Jim was found talking to management each time he left his table. No other GM was found making such discussions.

Look at all the injuries this team has faced. No Crosby or Malkin? Brought the team to 7 games against the Lightning. Missing the top 4 D, Malkin and Neal for extended amounts of time this season? 2nd in the East.

So in short, don't blame Dan. He did the best he could and he did it dam well with the poor handouts he was given. And I can't bring myself to put any blame on Shero with the possibility of him being a puppet hanging about. The players also need a share of the blame. They're the ones actually playing. Crosby and the crew were so quick to jump on top of Therrian, yet for so many years played valiantly for Dan. Obviously the leaders on the team didn't have an issue with him, Crosby would have been one of the first to call out his coach, he seems like a smart person who would realize if the coach was the reason for the teams lack of success

I also think a reality check is needed here. The Pens while a good team, are maybe 7-9 in the league with their roster. They had 1 good year which they had a decent lineup and that was when they had Iginla. While the lack of success is disappointing, a lot of better teams haven't won the cup either such as the Blues and Ducks

As for Orpik, I think it was more a respect thing. Maybe a promise, that he was given a top 4 spot. He definitely wasn't the same player anymore, I'm sure even the Pens management could see that. Not working hard enough, poor physical play and just couldn't make good decisions anymore. His speed was still there, maybe he was dealing with some personal issues.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The delicious irony of this thread title will shortly become apparent.

 

[systemsgo]

I think while Orpik sucked for us, he's (and Nisky) still an upgrade for the Caps defence, of course they're going to pump his tyres. In a way, it's a lot like how Johnston is for this team. We're just glad to not see the same crap we had to put up with, that we're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The Pens are also rich in young D, so it made him more unnecessary. But to teams which need D, he's an upgrade.

Dan did well with the roster he was given. The weak bottom 6? Blame Shero. Crosby and Malkin can't score in the playoffs? Blame Shero for not giving them wingers that can create opportunities. You could even blame Pens ownership for having their hands too much in the cookie jar. I'm sure we've all heard about management stopping trades and making Shero their puppet. Recall this years Draft, Jim was found talking to management each time he left his table. No other GM was found making such discussions.

Look at all the injuries this team has faced. No Crosby or Malkin? Brought the team to 7 games against the Lightning. Missing the top 4 D, Malkin and Neal for extended amounts of time this season? 2nd in the East.

So in short, don't blame Dan. He did the best he could and he did it dam well with the poor handouts he was given. And I can't bring myself to put any blame on Shero with the possibility of him being a puppet hanging about. The players also need a share of the blame. They're the ones actually playing. Crosby and the crew were so quick to jump on top of Therrian, yet for so many years played valiantly for Dan. Obviously the leaders on the team didn't have an issue with him, Crosby would have been one of the first to call out his coach, he seems like a smart person who would realize if the coach was the reason for the teams lack of success

I also think a reality check is needed here. The Pens while a good team, are maybe 7-9 in the league with their roster. They had 1 good year which they had a decent lineup and that was when they had Iginla. While the lack of success is disappointing, a lot of better teams haven't won the cup either such as the Blues and Ducks

As for Orpik, I think it was more a respect thing. Maybe a promise, that he was given a top 4 spot. He definitely wasn't the same player anymore, I'm sure even the Pens management could see that. Not working hard enough, poor physical play and just couldn't make good decisions anymore. His speed was still there, maybe he was dealing with some personal issues.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

just stop

Hey, hey, hey, be nice to this incredibly funny person. DD always makes me smile, it's a bit like Steigy.

 

[Whale Mingo]

I think while Orpik sucked for us, he's (and Nisky) still an upgrade for the Caps defence,

To be fair, I'm not questioning that they are or aren't, its the fact that it should be obvious Orpik will be a shell of his former (and even current) self in five years, which is how long his contract is for.

They massively overpaid for him, and Nisky IMO.


Just because a Dodge Dart is an upgrade over my current POS ride doesn't mean I should pay $50,000 for one and drag the loan out for 10 years.