Why is the blatantly obvious not, well, obvious?

[HandshakeLine]

There's hyperbole and then there's just an inability to critically evaluate the situation. Most fans use the former as an excuse for the later.

 

[mpp9]

There's hyperbole and then there's just an inability to critically evaluate the situation. Most fans use the former as an excuse for the later.

I think you have a problem with humanity more than HF.

Every team has their Adams, Scuds and Dupuis. I thought the biggest overreaction in recent times on here was the Neal trade. I'm pretty sure only a handful of posters were even saying it was fair.

 

[wgknestrick]

There's always hyperbole around these parts.

Moving Martin is about asset management, bringing in a player who can help Malkin impact the game at ES and getting our future on defense in the lineup.

Dupuis isn't human. It was very rational to assume his knee injury at his age would slow him down. He looks the same. Good for him. Still sucks with Malkin though.

Kunitz is racking up pts on the PP. I still am not a fan of his laziness. Hopefully they keep his minutes down, and he brings it in the playoffs. I still feel when his finishing ability goes away, he'll be a pretty useless player. His game won't translate well to a bottom six role.

Scuds is what he is. Extremely limited. And blocking the path of a younger higher ceiling D-man. He's looked better under MJ. If he sticks around this year, that's good. If he stays beyond this season, that's not good.

Adams will be sitting when we bring in a forward and BB returns. He's a borderline NHLer. That's all anyone was saying.

You're correct on the Neal trade. Many knowledgeable posters on here lost their minds.

It is way, way too early to call the Neal trade. All I know is that Neal was the significantly better player prior to the trade (5v5 G/60, 5v5 pts/60, and 5v4pts/60), was younger, and that Spalling wasn't enough to offset the difference. An informed decision would point to us losing that trade due to Neal's superior value contract and the risk of Spalling not re-signing with us. Horny's success has lessened the amount of loss so far, but I don't know how long his success will last. He has not been as effective at 5v5 IMO as Neal (but they played with different centers). This will have to be evaluated numerically in 2 years IMO.

Scuds and Adams still suck. Coach is doing a great job to maximize their production, but still has to game plan around "limited resources" from these guys.

Dupper and Kunitz are still great players, but getting older. They aren't necessarily a problem yet. Last years of their contracts will probably be rough. They are great now.

 

[mpp9]

It is way, way too early to call the Neal trade. All I know is that Neal was the significantly better player prior to the trade (5v5 G/60, 5v5 pts/60, and 5v4pts/60), was younger, and that Spalling wasn't enough to offset the difference. An informed decision would point to us losing that trade due to Neal's superior value contract and the risk of Spalling not re-signing with us. Horny's success has lessened the amount of loss so far, but I don't know how long his success will last. He has not been as effective at 5v5 IMO as Neal (but they played with different centers). This will have to be evaluated numerically in 2 years IMO.

Neal was not the significantly better player. Their ES production was just about even prior to Neal coming here and getting the Malkin effect. I'm confident that if we moved Gogo for PH in 2011, we'd be calling that trade a heist as well. It's called perspective. Anyone suggesting otherwise can't see past Neal's release. Simple as that.

We're already seeing the benefits of having a tireless worker, the best netfront presence in the game and a RHS. Along with many of his underrated qualities like stickwork and hockey IQ.

 

[stepdad gaary]

Why are ominous thread titles always so ominous

 

[billybudd]

It is way, way too early to call the Neal trade. All I know is that Neal was the significantly better player prior to the trade (5v5 G/60, 5v5 pts/60, and 5v4pts/60). An informed decision would point to us losing that trade due to Neal's superior value contract and the risk of Spalling not re-signing with us.

You know no such thing. There is a well-documented bump in a wide variety of analytics when a player gets put with one of Crosby or Malkin. Hornqvist's metrics with Nashville were substantially better than Neal's with Dallas. Heck, they weren't much worse than Neal's with Pittsburgh.

That (Hornqvist + Cal O'Reilly) < (Neal + Malkin) does not imply that Neal is better than Hornqvist. That's the exact opposite of "informed decision" on the topic, which, if you're wondering, looks like this.

Horny's success has lessened the amount of loss so far, but I don't know how long his success will last. He has not been as effective at 5v5 IMO as Neal (but they played with different centers).

You want to base 100% of your arguments on analytics, but this is just a straight up lie about what they say.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=989&withagainst=true&season=2011-14&sit=5v5
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=981&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5

More goals per minute. Less goals against per minute. Similar number of Corsi events for. Way, way less corsi events against. And this with less-favorable zone starts.

It's a small sample size, but you're butchering what the data in that sample that does exist says.

 

[Acquizitor*]

why is the following pretty obvious to me and to some others, yet things dont change ?

Geno is an exceptionally talented player, yet his role as being Sid's shadow, being overlooked is quite sad.

Not saying he should be "C" or that he is better than Sid, but lets have a reality check here.

a) Geno gets weaker wingers than he deserves, Neal with whom he had good chemistry was traded away, and his replacement was given to Sid, leaving Geno with weak wingers.

b) Playing on a team which has a marketed star like Crosby in it feeds Geno's lack of responsibility, hence he can afford to be lazy.

and more.

Malkin will be remembered as wasted potential, his potential being the leader of a team while not being its C.

Geno, I'm disappointed in you, I'm disappointed that you willingly agree to be someone's shadow, as a male I don't understand you.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think you have a problem with humanity more than HF.

Every team has their Adams, Scuds and Dupuis. I thought the biggest overreaction in recent times on here was the Neal trade. I'm pretty sure only a handful of posters were even saying it was fair.

I love humanity and hockey. I just hate most of this site.

 

[lastcupever75]

Ya, cup finals was what I meant.



He made some key saves in the Flyer series, especially the one on Carter. He also had some huge stops in the caps series, the breakaway on AO was monumental IMHO.



He let up two goals in the most important games of the series, including the biggest save on Lidstrom all alone as time expired.

He may have **** the bed since '09, but let's not re-write history here and claim he wasn't a key to those two finals appearances and ultimately raising the cup in '09.

not trying to re write history just giving my opinion of him. which is i think he's a fairly average goalie

the carter stop was more carter not burying that puck. shot it in the only place fluery could save it while he had half the net open. in the same game boucher (was that the flyer goalie at the time) was more impressive IMHO. stopping 40 + shots i believe.

he was big in game 7 vs. detroit though, i gave him credit there for sure. i'm also glad the crossbar was thick enough to let in the tying goal in the 3rd period, as well as adams going to block that last second attempt by lidstrom taking away the bottom half of the net

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Neal was not the significantly better player. Their ES production was just about even prior to Neal coming here and getting the Malkin effect. I'm confident that if we moved Gogo for PH in 2011, we'd be calling that trade a heist as well. It's called perspective. Anyone suggesting otherwise can't see past Neal's release. Simple as that.

We're already seeing the benefits of having a tireless worker, the best netfront presence in the game and a RHS. Along with many of his underrated qualities like stickwork and hockey IQ.

Just as an update for those curious, Neal has 7 goals and 9 points through 13 games, Horny has 7 goals and 15 points through 12 games.

Which would translate if kept up to 44 goals and 57 points for Neal and 48 goals and 95 points for Horny (I just want to keep on typing that Nickname).

Two thoughts. Neal is showing he can be a 40 goal scorer with or without Malkin. Some doubted that, but thus far he is doing it. Oh yeah, and that Crosby guy is good and can make a very good player who fits with him be great.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

not trying to re write history just giving my opinion of him. which is i think he's a fairly average goalie

That's fine, but below you are still trying to take some credit away from him.

the carter stop was more carter not burying that puck. shot it in the only place fluery could save it while he had half the net open. in the same game boucher (was that the flyer goalie at the time) was more impressive IMHO. stopping 40 + shots i believe.

You can't be serious. MAF was on the far post and was able to just get his skate on the puck. It was an incredible save.

he was big in game 7 vs. detroit though, i gave him credit there for sure. i'm also glad the crossbar was thick enough to let in the tying goal in the 3rd period, as well as adams going to block that last second attempt by lidstrom taking away the bottom half of the net

Not sure what the bold means...

Again you are taking credit from MAF here and I gotta call BS. I've seen that save 100 times. Adams comes in too late and dives with his stick out, by that time Lidstrom already has the shot off. That save was all MAF.

 

[Boocock]

Geno, I'm disappointed in you, I'm disappointed that you willingly agree to be someone's shadow, as a male I don't understand you.

Jeez louise man, give it a break. He's just a hockey player. Your statement is also a little sexist too. I'm sure there are plenty of "alpha females" who don't understand why a talented lady on a team in a women's league would choose to play within another's shadow.

 

[cajal]

why is the following pretty obvious to me and to some others, yet things dont change ?

Geno is an exceptionally talented player, yet his role as being Sid's shadow, being overlooked is quite sad.

Not saying he should be "C" or that he is better than Sid, but lets have a reality check here.

a) Geno gets weaker wingers than he deserves, Neal with whom he had good chemistry was traded away, and his replacement was given to Sid, leaving Geno with weak wingers.

b) Playing on a team which has a marketed star like Crosby in it feeds Geno's lack of responsibility, hence he can afford to be lazy.

and more.

Malkin will be remembered as wasted potential, his potential being the leader of a team while not being its C.

Geno, I'm disappointed in you, I'm disappointed that you willingly agree to be someone's shadow, as a male I don't understand you.

1) As a fan of Russian players, you have somewhat of a skewed view of everything.
2) If Malkin was worried about playing 2nd fiddle, he would no longer be here. You are more of a 'male' than him, obviously.
3) The Pens plan to add more wingers and distribute them between the Crosby and Malkin lines. Malkin had the best winger on the team on his line for the last couple of years.

Have a nice day.

 

[Whale Mingo]

why is the following pretty obvious to me and to some others, yet things dont change ?

Geno is an exceptionally talented player, yet his role as being Sid's shadow, being overlooked is quite sad.

Not saying he should be "C" or that he is better than Sid, but lets have a reality check here.

a) Geno gets weaker wingers than he deserves, Neal with whom he had good chemistry was traded away, and his replacement was given to Sid, leaving Geno with weak wingers.

And while Neal was here he did play with Geno leaving Sid with less talented wingers. Where was your outrage then?

b) Playing on a team which has a marketed star like Crosby in it feeds Geno's lack of responsibility, hence he can afford to be lazy.

This is absurd, but even if true it would still be up to Malkin to choose to be lazy or not. Which he does, a lot, right before he heads off the ice to the penalty box pouting.

I'm in the camp that would trade Geno for wingers, all day, every day.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Dan Bylsma no longer coaches here.

Brooks Orpik and Matt Niskanen no longer play here.

And the man that kept them here, no longer manages this team.


This thread is a backward looking and pointless excercise in internet hand-wringing. Get over it because we can't undo it. This is a new regime. Look forward.

I'm pretty ****ing tired of anything that revolves around Dan Bylsma including clever over-use of the stupid-ass smug picture. He's in the past. Let it go.

I'm surprised anyone with the power to stop it let this thread go beyond a page.