Why is tanking absolutely necessary?

[Claypool]

If you look at the majority of well regarded top 3-4 defenders the overwhelming majority come from the first 3 rounds. Sure there are outliers and all but they most of the time come from the top 90-100 picks.

So think just in the past 3-4 years how many 2nd and 3rd rounders we have given to other teams. Now it is not a given or anything but if you miss out on say 6-8 chances at taking a player you are missing out on the realistic chance you find a good young defender.

The notion that because some of the league's current best defensemen were drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round means this team should never trade those picks is absurd. Quite laughable, honestly.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The notion that because some of the league's current best defensemen were drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round means this team should never trade those picks is absurd. Quite laughable, honestly.

I don't understand why people even bother to make that argument. All they have to do is go back and look at drafts, actually look at them and understand them, to see how wildly improbable it is to land players of that level with those picks.

That kind of opinion is identical to setting up an offense around slapshots from the blue line because, hey, they go in every once in a while.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

The notion that because some of the league's current best defensemen were drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round means this team should never trade those picks is absurd. Quite laughable, honestly.

Just tell us how to draft elite defensemen. This is all any of us want to know.

 

[Claypool]

Just tell us how to draft elite defensemen. This is all any of us want to know.

Petr Mrazek is the Red Wings' best goalie ever drafted and developed. He's one of the best young goaltenders in the league and has the potential to be one of the best goaltenders overall. They drafted one of the best forwards in the draft in 2014 with a mid-round pick. Management also brought in many undrafted and waived players that are playing key roles right now. They've constructed a team that is fast, skilled and has a lot of players with star potential. There's also a lot of great depth waiting in Grand Rapids.

So I don't know why everyone is so hung up on this defense thing. I get it, it would be nice to have a hall of fame defenseman that can play 30 minutes a night and put up 60 points. Very few teams have those to begin with, though. I guess I don't understand why we constantly vomit on this team's inability to draft another superstar defensemen instead of celebrating its successes in other positions. Yeah, Nashville has Josi and Subban, but guess what? Their goaltending is awful, and they're STILL lacking a true superstar forward. Ottawa has a bunch of junk forwards and goaltenders, too. Really wasting Karlsson's prime years over there.

If this team didn't have Mrazek and was still rolling with Howard and Joe Backup, you'd be complaining about how this team can't draft elite goaltending.

 

[Bench]

Can Mrazek get 1 season with a top 5 finish before he's the chosen one? And even if he does, are you aware how many goalies do that and can't sustain it? That "terrible" Nashville goaltending you just threw under the bus used to be a top option for years and routinely beat the Wings by himself.

And that's why people don't trust goaltending to carry the team.

 

[14ari13]

Just tell us how to draft elite defensemen. This is all any of us want to know.

You do not draft them, you draft them and devepol them, it seems 50/50 to me. If you draft good players but have no room to develop them,then it is difficult.
In the last 2 decades we have Fischer and Kronwall.
We lost Fischer and Konstatinov, but hockey gods smiled many times at us and we got datsyuk, z, franzen, Holmstrom, Fedorov ...
We will never know how good Fischer and konstatinov would have become, which leaves us with Kronwall only.
Basically there is no quarantine unless you draft top 10 or Top 5.
Teams try to find forwards.
You need the time to develop defensemen.

Can Mrazek get 1 season with a top 5 finish before he's the chosen one? And even if he does, are you aware how many goalies do that and can't sustain it? That "terrible" Nashville goaltending you just threw under the bus used to be a top option for years and routinely beat the Wings by himself.

And that's why people don't trust goaltending to carry the team.

Howard was great in his best 2-3 seasons, but could not keeep it up for 10 seasons.
Difficult for goalies to sustain it.

 

[waltdetroit]

I didn't notice any discussion about tanking..?

After the Ott interview, the announcer spoke about how he was of the opinion that the wings should "blow it up", then he gives both Ott's opinion and also spoke with about KH and gives his version

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Petr Mrazek is the Red Wings' best goalie ever drafted and developed. He's one of the best young goaltenders in the league and has the potential to be one of the best goaltenders overall. They drafted one of the best forwards in the draft in 2014 with a mid-round pick. Management also brought in many undrafted and waived players that are playing key roles right now. They've constructed a team that is fast, skilled and has a lot of players with star potential. There's also a lot of great depth waiting in Grand Rapids.

So I don't know why everyone is so hung up on this defense thing. I get it, it would be nice to have a hall of fame defenseman that can play 30 minutes a night and put up 60 points. Very few teams have those to begin with, though. I guess I don't understand why we constantly vomit on this team's inability to draft another superstar defensemen instead of celebrating its successes in other positions. Yeah, Nashville has Josi and Subban, but guess what? Their goaltending is awful, and they're STILL lacking a true superstar forward. Ottawa has a bunch of junk forwards and goaltenders, too. Really wasting Karlsson's prime years over there.

If this team didn't have Mrazek and was still rolling with Howard and Joe Backup, you'd be complaining about how this team can't draft elite goaltending.

Here is a very, very simple exercise for you: make a list of the best defensemen on every team that has won the Stanley Cup since 1993. Now compare that defensemen to the best defensemen that we currently have on our roster.

Why is everyone so obsessed about elite defensemen? Because you absolutely need one to win the Stanley ****ing Cup. Note, no one has ever claimed that all you need is an elite defensemen, but they absolutely are necessary.

Now what kind of fan does not want their team to win the Stanley Cup?

 

[DetBigWangs]

Tanking over a long period creates a hole people don't talk about. Culture, leadership, accountability.

Loser teams go through the motions and are sub-par in terms of their off-ice preparedness. Just like any other organization that does anything. So you can tank and amass all the talent you want. But then there is a hole you have to fill. You need veterans, coaches, and managers to bring back a winning culture after you amass your picks and prospects. That's the step no one talks about. Even Crosby had to mentor under Lemieux. Jaqcues Demers help Steve become the leader he is. Bowman stabilized Chicago. I don't know if there was ever a group of players, no matter how good, that didn't have some sort of brain talent off the ice.

 

[MTU hockey]

So I don't know why everyone is so hung up on this defense thing. I get it, it would be nice to have a hall of fame defenseman that can play 30 minutes a night and put up 60 points. Very few teams have those to begin with, though. I guess I don't understand why we constantly vomit on this team's inability to draft another superstar defensemen instead of celebrating its successes in other positions. Yeah, Nashville has Josi and Subban, but guess what? Their goaltending is awful, and they're STILL lacking a true superstar forward. Ottawa has a bunch of junk forwards and goaltenders, too. Really wasting Karlsson's prime years over there.

If this team didn't have Mrazek and was still rolling with Howard and Joe Backup, you'd be complaining about how this team can't draft elite goaltending.

There is no need to exaggerate the points that people are arguing, it defeats the purpose of good discussion if you fail to acknowledge the points people are trying to make. No one is saying we need a hall of fame defenseman or anything close to it. But it would be nice to have a defenseman or two that could play 25 minutes a night, chip in 40+ points, and allow the team to play more in the offensive zone than the defensive zone (i.e. able to consistently make outlet passes, and not get abused by opposing teams top lines). We're not exactly asking for a unicorn here, at least half the league has a guy that fits that description. And the less 2nd and 3rd round picks you have the fewer your chances are of ever landing a player of that caliber. It's kinda like the lotto but with a little better odds, if you don't play, you won't ever win.

Now lets celebrate the Wings fantastic track record of the last 15 years of drafting forwards and goalies. Well, we have Mrazek (who still hasn't proven he can great for a whole season) and Larkin (see Mrazek). It seems the Wings haven't drafted a star forward since Dats and Z. Really there isn't much to celebrate about this teams drafting besides that I guess they're good at drafting average to slightly above average top six wingers, that's good i guess

 

[njx9]

I don't understand why people even bother to make that argument. All they have to do is go back and look at drafts, actually look at them and understand them, to see how wildly improbable it is to land players of that level with those picks.

That kind of opinion is identical to setting up an offense around slapshots from the blue line because, hey, they go in every once in a while.

So now you've said that we shouldn't bother using our firsts on defensemen, because over the last decade there have only been a decent handful that would've been objectively good players. Now we shouldn't bother using 2nd/3rd round picks on defensemen, because it's 'wildly improbably' that we'll ever end up with one. I guess we can extrapolate that you think it's a universal impossibility for this team to ever improve it's defense. Speaking of laughable.

 

[HockeyinHD]

So now you've said that we shouldn't bother using our firsts on defensemen, because over the last decade there have only been a decent handful that would've been objectively good players. Now we shouldn't bother using 2nd/3rd round picks on defensemen, because it's 'wildly improbably' that we'll ever end up with one. I guess we can extrapolate that you think it's a universal impossibility for this team to ever improve it's defense. Speaking of laughable.

As everyone obviously knows, suggesting that the applications of late 1's and 2's and 3's to a position does not represent a universal anodyne is a laughable supposition.